Skill is a Myth

Araxleon · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are actually skilled. Amazing reaction time

Some use cheap mechanics and consider themselves skilled. Great at finding/abusing bugs

Some people are raid leaders thus consider themselves skilled because said person has power. Good at yellingat people and/or being a leader

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

we are all special in our own way

Some cause chaos and controversy on forum threads - I am also a special snowflake

j/k

Sunken Crown of the LOL KING.

k2blader · August 2015

Araxleon wrote: »

Some people are actually skilled. Amazing reaction time

Some use cheap mechanics and consider themselves skilled. Great at finding/abusing bugs

Some people are raid leaders thus consider themselves skilled because said person has power. Good at yelling at people and/or being a leader

Some people are popular so they say they are skilled. Charismatic and great at manipulating people

we are all skilled in our own way

You're pretty darn skilled at pwning this thread. lol

Valnas · August 2015

best troll thread in a while.

Ezareth · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I was probably the first kite and fight sorc I've seen but others may have developed a similar playstyle on other campaigns. I don't see too many "copykat" sorcs running my build these days as my build isn't the most powerful in todays meta. I haven't seen a Sorc running sword and board in some time and the most difficult sorcs to kill that I see are all running food and not drink. I dodge roll and block on my sorc and while I use Hardened ward + Healing ward if you watch my videos you'll see that a single player cuts through my shields with relative ease. Even in 1.5 my strength was more in my hitpoints (3700) than the size of my shields.

My strategy was pretty much laid out in the first few seconds of my first video. Divide and conquer. Don't engage in positions that favor the enemy. Attack when your enemy expects you to retreat etc. I would engage hit and run tactics in risky manuevers and string my opponents out to run them out of resources. I would use skill more to stay inside a danger zone than just spamming my shield stack and tanking enemies.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

Ezareth · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

Ezareth might have been one of the first YOU noticed, but in 1.5 practically all Sorc's that didn't run in a zerg ball shield stacked and used the same gear. To make your argument you withhold a lot of truth and history. First off around 1.4/1.5 almost everyone worth a damn was running the same meta. It was full Light Armor / Impenetrable / Resto Staff / 1HS. Every single class was doing this. It was not unique to any one player and if you want to give credit to anyone, give some to Sypher because he made dueling popular and set the bar amongst those that used the dueling perspective. Even he wasn't unique there are plenty of people out there who did not make videos or post on the forum, yet remained unsung. I know of at least 2 of them.

Furthermore calling people copycats is just disingenuous. The meta changed, you either changed with it or you underperformed, it's that simple. A lot of Stamina Sorcs switched over to Light Armor not because they heard of some guy named Ezareth... but because Stam Sorcs sucked ass and Crit was impossible, let alone self healing through Critical Surge. This thread is just ridiculous.

Um, im talking as far back as 1.2, possibly even 1.1 in some cases. Real old school. Many (most) of those people dont even play anymore either.

its been a cyclical thing with this game. The first people to X then spread X, X becomes meta, is copied, rinse repeat

Perhaps some of the first people had them mad skills, at least as defined in my OP to that extent. But those that came later? nah.

Also the meta hasnt changed all that much. We traded barrier stacking for barrier rotation, ground oil for proxdet, novabombs for more caltrops because its never enough especially with camo hunter on them. its the same as its always been. Put 2-3 busted skills on your bar, put the latest FOTM build on, win game.

I guess you could give credit to those that figured out things were broken or OP? Maybe?

I started running my strategy when I was level 44 and I was a trashcan compared to today back then in the skill department. There have been very little changes to my build except to make adjustments based upon patch changes and such.

I think you're failing to include intelligence in all of this which I feel is a portion of a players skill. When I rolled my NB I tried the 2 hander build with bow that 90% of NBs out there are running. I never liked it. 2 hander fit the playstyle I wanted plus because of rally it was necessary but I've just always hated bow and it is an extremely weak and unskilled weapon so I switched to sword an board.

When fighting all the new meta sorcs who run dawnbreaker and crushing shock and velocious curse with streak spam I was an easy kill for most of them because I didn't have the tools to fight them. The same with a magicka DK spamming whip and talons or a magicka NB with concealed weapon. It was a weak ganking build and I've never been a ganker so I made my own build to combat the current meta and it works very well.

Deep slash (who have you ever see run that? lol) to keep all of my targets slowed and keep a permanent maim (-15% damage on them). Animation cancelled Absorb magick to let all the people firing off light attacks and crushing shock continue to heal me without realizing it while giving my sword and board blocks enough of a bonus to reduce most attacks that I can't dodge roll to a minimal amount. Peircing mark to keep all those damn NBs I hate in my sites. Bash....because bash is absurdly powerful right now and people just dont know what to do when you hit them with 50 bashes to their face as they're waiting for you to run out of stam haha.

Sure a big part of my success right now is in my build, but I also was intelligent and skilled enough to understand the current meta today enough to develop my own build that is designed to kill a large percentage of the players running these "cookie cutter" builds you're talking about. I also recognize what works and what doesn't work and I adjust accordingly. That's an example of skill IMO.

In 2.1 you're going to see the most skilled players performing the best. The meta will shift and the skilled players will recognize that shift and adapt early, while the copycats will not adapt until later to much less success. That is a measure of skill.

Kloud · August 2015

I mean how hard is it to figure out a good build for a single class honestly. when 1.6 hit I had the best ideal for a build ever for my stam dk with out ever even playing or being on the pts I put the build together and messed with it a bunch until I was happy with it and what I came up with was pretty much what everyone else did and I thought I made the build so yeah there are optimal ways to build and you would have to be pretty damn stupid to think other people can't think on there own and are just capable of coming up with the same thing. I was accused of copying builds from sypher aetcha but I didn't infact some of those players asked me about my build and I gladly shared any information they wanted to know. But seriously it's not hard to make a awesome build and when you do I can almost guarantee you some one else is already doing it.

Soulac · August 2015

I don´t use a single exploit since animation cancel is part of the game since a long time now as stated by zos.
May sounds arrogant but I don´t think i win nearly all fights just cause I´m a cat.

- active and passive knowledge
- movement
- reactiontime / reflextime
- positioning
- battlefield awareness
- decision making

no skill?

Eso is easy, but I´m sure that skill matters.

bosmern_ESO · August 2015

I was actually going to think this was a poorly made thread but it isn't..

When you think about it, pvp is just build v build/class benefit v class benefit

eliisra · August 2015

Players rolling the most broken class + skill+build constellation, will always keep telling themselves(and others) how skilled they are.

It's pretty understandable. When you keep destroying other players with ease, you naturally assume you're much better than they are. Easier than accepting the fact that you're getting loads of help from your cheesy character design.

Best example would be all cookie cutter 1vX DK's pre 1.6. They where so skilled individually omg, you would never hear the end of it in TS and guild chats.

Now it's rather 100% armor pen stamblades and shieldstacking blinkers that have the highest level of player "skill" and we should all be impressed.

Of course there's some skill involved in ESO, such as quick reaction, awareness, movement, timing and such. But a lot of it is lost when characters aren't balanced due to to certain build, class and skill combinations being so much stronger. Than there's CP.

FENGRUSH · August 2015

What about when you spec out of the FOTM build to have fun and remain a champion?!

Vis · August 2015

Maybe in your case...

No but really, your criticisms all involve "group" play. None of it involves the actual skill required to 1vX and win. I can understand your disillusionment with zerg play, but many of us solo too.

Gilvoth · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

All the time on these forums I hear people talk about skill factoring into battles, how skill determines X, how skill should determine Y, and I find myself more often than not rolling my eyes at the screen.

Why? Because there is no actual skill curve in this game. At best there is a knowledge of point counterpoint but that is about the limit. A simple study of what individual class abilities, effects, and the like will quickly close that gap, so what is this mythical skill people blabber about so much.

From what I can tell there are four main factors to success in PvP in ESO.

1. Group oriented mentality, whether it be small or large, a toolbar equipped for the role. No real skill in that, just put stuff on bar and push it when needed. In fact, the most successful groups consist of a leader that has about 20 robots on follow just doing whatever he says to do. Skill = 0.
2. Like minded teammates towards a goal. Again, no skill required, this is a social thing and/or politics etc.
3. How many broken/gimped cheese abilities you know about and how many you use. Nirn, dawnbreaker, mundus, animation bugs, lag generation, blah blah blah this list goes on for days. Lumped in with this is how quickly you obtain such cheese and use it first, the earlier the more of a legend you become, everyone will copy you and call it skilled emergent gameplay.
4. Knowing when to line of sight, knowing your own limits, etc. Possibly the only semblance of actual skill in the game, but really for anyone who has played MMOs or FPS for any length of time, this is just second nature, survival instinct, duck and cover, reaction, etc. If this is the sole proponent of the mythical skill, then everyone that has ever popped a tripot when they took some damage or stepped out of a siege circle is the epitome of a skilled player arent they.

Basically my point is that this game is about as far from difficult to learn and master as you can get. Five active abilities, one of the simplest crafting/minmax systems I have ever seen (stack moar regen or spell power, there are only actually four total stats in the game that matter, pick two and max em out) and an ultimate that basically amounts to the only important ability you carry (moar barriers pl0x)

So what gives with all of the threads lately screaming about vet player this, newbie player that, this game is too hard, plz nerf this or that. Hasnt it been dumbed down enough? The 1.6 rebalancing was bad enough, but this garbage on the PTS is just borderline silly. Not to mention the crying about CP, death penalty (telvar), and forced PvP (in a game where nearly every progression is already forced PvE).

Give up the carebear routine, everyone dies, even the immortal Rylana (a lot more than id care to share, leeroyyyy jenkinsss). The guy that killed you, or me, or the tree, is no more skilled than the numbnuts standing next to him that didnt do anything at all. He pushed buttons, probably stacked one stat, and is chock full of cheesey mechanics just to get his epeen off.

But never label that as skilled gameplay. Nor tout it like it is.

There are no super seekrits in this game. Everyone knows (and if you didnt already) that the most "skilled" players are the ones using the most broken stuff, maxing out one stat, and just running with it. Videos optional.

you are correct and this is truth. good read. and all honesty.
finally some one says it openly and without insulting others.

TheBull · August 2015

I agree with everything you said except the portion about skill. I'm a solo player. A successful solo player. If I just press w/e 5 buttons I die and have to run back. I hate running back. Skill keeps me from running back.

To your main point. I too am very concerned with the coming 1.7 combat. It's far too forgiving for my liking. Not much edge. Kinda like softball compared to the baseball we've been playing for a year and a half.

k2blader · August 2015

Vis wrote: »

Maybe in your case...

No but really, your criticisms all involve "group" play. None of it involves the actual skill required to 1vX and win. I can understand your disillusionment with zerg play, but many of us solo too.

I do tend to think the 1vXers are generally more "skilled" though I feel it's rare to see that done very successfully in-game. That said, just a couple nights ago I was watching an AD NB (forget his name) soloing 2-4 blues (at least one blue was a "known name") near Alessia. I didn't interfere much because I figured that's what the NB wanted; I would definitely call him skilled, regardless of build or CPs or whatnot.

Septimus_Magna · August 2015

I completely disagree, I kill bad NBs with a single burst in pvp but Im often dead when I meet a good one. I can kill bad sorcs pretty easily but I have a hard time against the better ones.

Even when playing by myself I have good and bad days, depending on my personal player skill and concentration.

ToRelax · August 2015

Knowledge of game mechanics and the ability to create builds to fit your needs definitely play a large role in a player's success, wether that be a part of "skill" or not.
Same goes for tactical/strategical thinking, reaction time, situational awareness, muscle memory, the ability to think "outside the box", the ability to learn from your mistakes and probably some important things I forgot.
As others have said, if all these are not part of being skilled, then what is left of that mythical "skill" in other games, or even in the physical world?

As for all the copycats, my obligatory example - wich will, thinking about it, be unnecessary long and mildly interesting, so I'll put it in a spoiler

:

I was probably one of the most active players on 1.6 PTS, wich gave me a long time of thinking, theorycrafting, practice with my new build and a big advantage when the Update went live. Not gonna deny that.
For about two weeks, the most well performing players I saw had all done the same thing, test for weeks on end on the PTS. By that point, all the players I counted to the best in 1.5 had created their builds - yes, influenced be the rest of us, and no, they didn't just copy them - and basically did as well as they had always done.
But of course they were not the only ones who spoke with the testers, as you said, the "meta" spread, after many fights someone messaged me to ask me about my build. And once to a certain degree similar builds had become the usual sight in Cyrodiil, that stopped for the most part.
Instead, there were a lot more people now that started flaming on me (that hadn't really happened for a long time, not in this extend anyway). I had killed people with that exact build for weeks, and now that all the players "trying to get better", as I'd call it, had done so, I was suddenly told I was just doing so well because I copied someone else's build, a usual excuse for their all to easy death. I was even being told some names (some of wich I knew, some of wich I had never heard of before) of people whose builds I was supposed to have copied and in rare cases players even wanted to show how unskilled I am in a duel. Of course, they didn't make it. I won every single of those duels without any problem, they were just not on my Level. They had their fotm builds with some nice instructions on how to use them, most of them had been in the game for many months, some since launch and they knew my build and what to do against it as well. Still they lost. Must have been luck then I guess...
I can still just hop into Cyrodiil and start to 1vX the same players I fought at the beginning of 1.6. Most are harder to kill, many I have seen using exploits I would never use myself, but I still do better than anyone but those few I consider really skilled. Most of them had my respect at the start of 1.6, many left and only a handful could be added now. Surely not the masses copying some fotm build.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

...

MisterBigglesworth · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

4. Knowing when to line of sight, knowing your own limits, etc. Possibly the only semblance of actual skill in the game, but really for anyone who has played MMOs or FPS for any length of time, this is just second nature, survival instinct, duck and cover, reaction, etc. If this is the sole proponent of the mythical skill, then everyone that has ever popped a tripot when they took some damage or stepped out of a siege circle is the epitome of a skilled player arent they.

Nope, not even this point is entirely cheese-free. There is the skill of knowing how to line of sight, but there's also the "skill" in knowing which abilities inexpicably ignore LOS checks, for example healing/buffing your allies through walls while enemy players can't even target you.

BossTuggles · August 2015

<--- Original Sw/Sh Resto zerg ball destroyer DK

Thejtprb18_ESO · August 2015

Takes a lot of skill to create enough free time in your life to have 4 or 5 v14's

I have 1@v1, I need to learn that skill.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

All the time on these forums I hear people talk about skill factoring into battles, how skill determines X, how skill should determine Y, and I find myself more often than not rolling my eyes at the screen.

Why? Because there is no actual skill curve in this game. At best there is a knowledge of point counterpoint but that is about the limit. A simple study of what individual class abilities, effects, and the like will quickly close that gap, so what is this mythical skill people blabber about so much.

From what I can tell there are four main factors to success in PvP in ESO.

1. Group oriented mentality, whether it be small or large, a toolbar equipped for the role. No real skill in that, just put stuff on bar and push it when needed. In fact, the most successful groups consist of a leader that has about 20 robots on follow just doing whatever he says to do. Skill = 0.
2. Like minded teammates towards a goal. Again, no skill required, this is a social thing and/or politics etc.
3. How many broken/gimped cheese abilities you know about and how many you use. Nirn, dawnbreaker, mundus, animation bugs, lag generation, blah blah blah this list goes on for days. Lumped in with this is how quickly you obtain such cheese and use it first, the earlier the more of a legend you become, everyone will copy you and call it skilled emergent gameplay.
4. Knowing when to line of sight, knowing your own limits, etc. Possibly the only semblance of actual skill in the game, but really for anyone who has played MMOs or FPS for any length of time, this is just second nature, survival instinct, duck and cover, reaction, etc. If this is the sole proponent of the mythical skill, then everyone that has ever popped a tripot when they took some damage or stepped out of a siege circle is the epitome of a skilled player arent they.

Basically my point is that this game is about as far from difficult to learn and master as you can get. Five active abilities, one of the simplest crafting/minmax systems I have ever seen (stack moar regen or spell power, there are only actually four total stats in the game that matter, pick two and max em out) and an ultimate that basically amounts to the only important ability you carry (moar barriers pl0x)

So what gives with all of the threads lately screaming about vet player this, newbie player that, this game is too hard, plz nerf this or that. Hasnt it been dumbed down enough? The 1.6 rebalancing was bad enough, but this garbage on the PTS is just borderline silly. Not to mention the crying about CP, death penalty (telvar), and forced PvP (in a game where nearly every progression is already forced PvE).

Give up the carebear routine, everyone dies, even the immortal Rylana (a lot more than id care to share, leeroyyyy jenkinsss). The guy that killed you, or me, or the tree, is no more skilled than the numbnuts standing next to him that didnt do anything at all. He pushed buttons, probably stacked one stat, and is chock full of cheesey mechanics just to get his epeen off.

But never label that as skilled gameplay. Nor tout it like it is.

There are no super seekrits in this game. Everyone knows (and if you didnt already) that the most "skilled" players are the ones using the most broken stuff, maxing out one stat, and just running with it. Videos optional.

I agree, about the only thing you can chalk up to skill or luck might be response time on the keyboard or controller and your situational awareness, that is about the only thing I feel keeps me form being fodder to the optimized player using all the latest and greatest in broken game mechanics, like example dawnbreaker of smiting...

Asrien · August 2015

I'm inclined to disagree simply because I've noticed that while skill isn't required, it can certainly put you ahead of those around you. The game's currently "balanced" or not to allow everyone a chance at success, even if it's 80% chance. However by playing in certain ways or ways the devs and player-base don't expect, ways that require a very specific style of play and co-ordination, it becomes a game of skill rather than a game of chance, and if you play it right you can beat just about anything that you've geared you playstyle to beat. Certainly at a basic level the game doesn't have a skill curve or need for it, but you can still play in ways that require skill, and have their own pros and cons as a result. It's all on the user though. You know the rules, figure out how you can break them or excel within the system.

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

i dont see a reason some pvper can interested in this game to start pvp here. everything is so pigeon-holed, here is only frustration over frustration for him. Cant even find equall 1 vs 1 since vr rank.

Other games have issues too, but consider that there you can que for pvp event for example and matchmaking is able to deliver at least a few players equall to your level for that instance.

At eso you get melted, roflstomped at 2 sec by almost everyone. zenimax has a lot of work to do to better manage their AVA, but brain wheeler obviously dont see it.

Junipus · August 2015

Learn to dodge roll when you hear the snipe incoming and then block. You'll find it easy to deal with snipers then.

BigTone · August 2015

To a certain extent, there is nothing wrong with being a copycat. One thing I pride myself in is always being humble enough to ask for help. If I see someone doing something good, I ask them how/why they do it. I look up builds online. If I get another good player in TS I chew their ear off with questions.
Thing is I do not take carbon copies of their build. I pick and choose the parts that work for me and adjust the build to my liking. What I am currently running is a somewhat standard sorc build, but it is geared towards group play and my personal play style. I have utmost respect for the innovators, especially the ones from the beginning. There are a lot of really good sorcs out there who have helped me become the player I am today.

BigTone · August 2015

Rylana wrote: »

You activated my trap card.

This made me laugh so fxxxing much!

Vizier · August 2015

yodased wrote: »

Well can't all video games in this genre be relegated to not needing skill, but knowledge?

I mean, it's not like you have to have a special ability or training to hit keys, especially when the game is literally telling you at what point to hit those keys.

I think the real skill comes from strategy and anticipating the overall momentum of battles.

Getting to a keep and setting up defenses before the enemy gets there, ambushing, flanking etc are the only examples of "skill", but even then isn't that more tactical knowledge of battle than skill?

While I agree with much of what Rylana said. I mean for crying out loud there are addons that tell you when to block, dodge, counter, etc... Truly problematic IMO. That said I just don't agree that there is no skill involved. Ezereth and other elite players have shown that and I don't believe it's all just about exploiting Nirn and such. (true for some for sure.) I mean for instance I think at some point I sniped at Ezereth from stealth and he was off his horse and charging me before my arrow was half way to him. THAT kind of skill and reaction time make me smile even as I'm dying. lol.

@yodased you really are seconding my thoughts here. Situational awareness is IMO one of the most important skills a player can develop. Seeing and understanding the ebb and flow of battles and being able to anticipate what is going to happen is key to survival, especially for solo and small group pvp players.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

Rylana · August 2015

Good to see the mixed reactions. I knew this thread would have its share of disagreement, as there are always those that dont fit neatly into a nice tight package.

I was trying to get people to really think, reflect perhaps, on where we have come from and where we are going. personally, I have illustrated, I dont find this game to be difficult. there isnt that much to track, its pretty basic. Some of the deeper mechanics like how to calculate armor pen or weapon effect procs can get a little tedious, but ive played games in the past where youd have 20 odd skills on your bar, each with a significant and needed use, cooldowns, resource pools that were never EVER easily refilled. limiters

Frankly as time has gone on (and its not just zerg mentality, a lot of the problems with the game apply to soloers, 1vXers, etc because they too benefit from all of the borked mechanics) the PvP of this game has gotten arbitrarily dumbed down.

We joke about hello kitty online sometimes, us "elite pvpers that shun thine RP and badness" or whatever... but when ya think about it, compared to a year ago, we really are drifting that way.

it saddens me that most builds/setups etc can really be templated into five distinct categories without much wiggle room. its always stam or magicka, damage or support, barriers and heals. uniqueness, true difference between one guy and the next is starting to get pretty rare.

*** hum its another shield stacking BOL sorc
*** hum its another roll dodging wrecking blow vigorblade
*** hum its another stack of steel tornadoes

and so on.

Id always thought the idea was to make something out of thousands of combinations and be able to do well with it, and many MANY of us were very different back in 1.2. (do any of you remember when i vehemently defended steel tornado when it was a BAD skill? i wouldnt take it off my bar because it was something no one else at the time was really doing, it made me different, and i had some measures of success with. AOE execute it had always been, just needed a lot more work/effort to make viable then)

Hell, we experimented and had as many combos as we probably should have... then things got nerfed, adjusted, changed, railroaded. Someone back in this thread said pigeonholed.

Not gonna lie but whenever I run in a proxdet "organized group" i feel bored, like a machine. I once said to someone in TS all we need is autofollow and autotarget and we could watch the AD leader and the DC leader duel with everyones alts all at the same time, cause thats what it optimally becomes.

the thrill, the heart pumping come from behind or win despite overwhelming impossible odds... thats becoming a very extinct thing nowadays.

I think that was more the motive of the thread. While I never truly think the game required much of any skill to really get decent at.... at least it needed some back in the day. Maybe a little.

Now? Pick up your local walmart pack of enchants and armor pieces, slap it together, do what the guy on crown or in the video does. Win game.

I am reminded of NA PC dawnbreaker 2.0 when all of the strats we see used day in day today were still being born. When fights were carefully planned, people actually thought about what they were going to do, you could tell who knew what was up and who was still figuring it out. I just dont see that anymore. Just another day at the meatgrinder office I suppose, with a few seeds of some dude on a rock knocking people off of it for youtube (which is old as hell now, surprised people still find it clever)

Rylana · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I have to disagree to an extent. There are plenty players who are extremely skilled at this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ez was one of the very first "troll sorcs" as I call them. The ultra defensive runaround shield stacker that was virtually impossible to burst down, etc etc. How common is that build/playstyle today? Every other player, and most of them rerolls that jumped on a bandwagon when it became possible to stack both offense AND defense and still play in the same style. I dont blame Ez one bit. But he has been lost in the shuffle as a thousand of his copycats now do the same old hat he once did. Not skilled by any means.

I think most of the sorcs running the most powerful build these days copied Germantrocities build with Destro + Resto with streak which is the oldest playstyle (and boring to me) in the game. He added daedric mines + dawnbreaker to the combo with entropy for spellpower + MOTG. It is very effective though but I agree it doesn't take much skill to execute it as its strength all lies in the stats and power of the build and it is extremely easy to execute and perform well against most players. Still you can easily identify A copycat running the build and a player with true skill. Copycats will fire their dawnbreaker way too early, or they'll forget to refresh their shields or they'll focus the wrong targets instead of correctly identifying the right targets to attack.

I'm not trying to uplift myself or downplay anyone else here but I just disagree with a lot of what you're saying there. My build would probably be much less effective today than it was 3 months ago unless I made some adjustments to it with the knowledge I've gained since then.

What pisses me off is in 2.1, skill becomes far less of a factor due to the nerfs to dodge roll and block. They've just removed two major components to combat that were powerful when used correctly and made the game far more about maxing damage and passive defense than anything else.

God I remember when we used to destroy people pre 1.6 as Sorcs. And everyone always doubted Sorcs, always. Now look at what Sorcs have become. Everyone running the Engine Guardian build ;P
While I have enjoyed my time killing all of the copycats, and being a general nuisance as I always have been in Cyrodiil on my Sorc, it's time to play something a bit more challenging. I think Sorc has become far too easy, and its lost the charm it had pre 1.6 and the beginning of 1.6. Everyone rolled one, everyone put on Engine Guardian/Healer/Seducer, and poured all their points into bastion, believing they were now god-mode. It's lovely to put them in their place, and humorous to watch them fail at tactics and the such.

I digress, though. There is skill that comes into play in this game. A lot of what Ezareth has pointed out defines what I also believe to be skill. Positioning, knowing when to dodge, when to block, who to focus, to be aware of your surroundings, to know when and when to not use certain skills, to be able to finish off a final burst flawlessly, etc. etc. Skilled players will absorb what they learn open world, and adjust their builds to accommodate any situation that may arise. I hear players cry a lot about not wanting to specify builds to beat certain classes. A skilled player shapes his build around being able to handle any class at any time in Cyrodiil. Copycats will fail at this, the skilled players will succeed. It will be the same way in 1.7, just as it was when 1.6 hit.

I have to agree with the final point here. As a player who actively dodges when needed, blocks when needed, and is generally aware of her surroundings, this is going to suck, for lack of better words. However, I do see where there will be some more complicity added to how to handle outnumbered situations and the such.

But we'll see what the final result will be.

Overall, however, I do think skill goes into this game, but I think the skilled players are very rare. Just my opinion on the matter.

I chalk it up more to just experience and familiarity. Give them time and they will get all the nuances and so on. Ive had a lot of fun wrecking the rerolls too (especially the inevitable-curse-soul assault people that got that poor tip from an infamous video), and i was NEVER the engine/healer/seducer. Ive always been the 3100 spell damage spiker sorc that will rock you for 17-20k out of nowhere. Know what I mean? Something that not everyone uses, but probably will or have and I missed it.

I dunno, i remember fighting a whole bunch of sorcs back in 1.5 on my DK, i am pretty sure thats where we started talking more than just a little bit when I was hanging around in chillrend TS. I remember how stupid OP DK was and how I was taking on 4 sorcs for 10+ minutes because reasons. Honestly to me it wasnt so much i felt skilled as i was just hitting things to delay or prevent the inevitable, dragging it out as best I could. That and at the time DKs were just that dang strong vs most sorcs.

Ill be completely honest, even those times where ive somehow managed to wreck 10 people by myself on a keep inner or even in open field... i dont feel like its an abundance of "skillful mastery" so to speak, more like those I was fighting werent informed on the proper counters to what i was doing. Put one guy that knows what hes doing into a fight like that, and it completely shifts the balance.

So i dunno, just rambling after a long night of PvP with mixed emotions about the future of the game. I dont think anything any of us are doing today is anything special. No offense to anyone either.