I am very skeptical about the arguments laid by the OP. And what's worse is the failure to distinguish between stam nb's and magicka nb. The OP lumps them both together as if a nb was a magical monster that had the best of both flavor's worlds.

I'm a magicka nb. I used to be afraid of other nb's...especially if they got the "jump" on me. On live they are my number one threat according to kill count. Something like 40% of my deaths are at their hands. Always had to keep moving, keep scanning, and never let my guard down as I hunted. Well, I will say this for IC as it stands right now. The fear is gone. I know that even the worst surprise attack isn't going to get me. I will have plenty of time to recover. I only have 16k health when pvp'ing. I've lost the glass and the cannon parts of my build.

Vatter wrote: »

3. Shadow cloak mixed with path of darkness is the ultimate escape. You cannot target them, cannot attack them because they will be immune if you use detect pots, can't catch them (unless your a sorcerer then all you will be doing is aggroing npcs or use the insanely expensive retreating maneuver in which case you will just aggro npc's AND be short on stamina.) Mage light is worthless.

Path of Darkness and cloak combo for escape in pvp? I've honestly never seen this from anybody I was chasing or anybody on my side for that matter. Maybe if path of darkness was a snare for other players. I would not recommend this as an evade and escape technique. The point of cloak is to keep the pursuit guessing where you are going. The path would be a dead giveaway unless you were bluffing? But you can't always bluff now can you?

Cloak is nice for the aggro control in IC. But I've been killed by mobs and still managed to generate almost EQ style trains following me despite a liberal use of cloak and a build built for magicka regen.

Vatter wrote: »

4. The damage reduction doesn't seem to be effecting the class at all. Because of the opportunity for so many escape options they are still stacking weapon damage through the roof. only requires an extra shot or (god forbid) 2.

We are not playing on the same pts I guess. And stacking escape options comes at the cost of attack power. How many times is a stam nb going to be able to cloak with 9k magicka and 800 regen?

Even still I am getting hit by 4k surprise attacks. 6k if it crits

Vatter wrote: »

LETS SUM UP.
unable to mitigate their damage

Is there a special nb type damage I am not aware of? Anybody can use a sharpened mace. Lot's of talk about this bug and some indications that it's being looked into but the player tests that I have seen are contradictory.

Vatter wrote: »

unable to block their damage

Hyperbole Much! I seldom run fear because even a decent player can break it quickly. But it can be deadly against players who can't manage their stamina and break cc when needed. The snare after it's broken is actually more useful for escaping, which is why if I do use it, it's on my second bar next to my oh *** healing ward button.

Vatter wrote: »

can't lock them down.

??? You have never played a nb and been chased by a sorc lol

Vatter wrote: »

can't target them

??? You have never played a nb and had to click cloak 3 times while somebody was single targeting you LOL

Vatter wrote: »

best escapes (vanish)

- You have never bolted as a sorc.

Vatter wrote: »

cheapest ultimate

- Soul harvest is a nice ultimate. Too bad I've had to drop it on pts for clouding swarm so I can get my 10% regen. But hey don't say the design never offers HARD CHOICES

Vatter wrote: »

best mobility

- Mobility is a class defining attribute. Just like Flappy Flap and GDB. But all players have access to mobility enhancing techniques. i.e. rapid manuevers, night's silence, speed potions, dodge roll bow passive, mist form, sprint enhancement, item sets, etc.

Vatter wrote: »

best passives

??? Did I miss the scoring on that debate?

Vatter wrote: »

able to fully heal themselves.

This has got to be the Troll giveaway. LOL

Vatter wrote: »

biggest damage dealer.

??? Sprinkels on top..

Vatter wrote: »

Definitely Roll a NB for IC. its a win.

I have only played my Khajiit Magickaa Melee NB since day 1. I do not feel like a winner with IC. I love this game and I expect to have a great time once this all settles. And it will settle. I remember thinking hard on quitting the game after 1.6 hit because I just could not wrap my head around all the changes to my nb. I'm glad I stuck with it though.

I'm sure something similar will happen with 2.1 IC. I hope so. Right now I am worried that i will be forced to group with PvP. Right now my experience with the new combat is that you have to have "buddies" helping you in order to a get a kill. With the damage reduction in place as it stands now It's a numbers game. 2 beats 1, 3 beats 2.

Khajiit like to sneak, be not afraid stick to the shade.

Aunatar wrote: »

NOBODY said armor penetration on sharp maces is going to be fixed. Devs said they are going to fix armor and spell penetration Champion Points

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Above in bold is the related portion of the dev quote from the dev post in question. It says sharpened which is the weapon trait. It also says piercing which is the champion point trait.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

NB is strong I won't argue about that, but the kings?
I call it now and you will see:
Wait for the good Templars as soon as pts go live and watch the world burn.

The OP was fishing for lol's that do not exist anymore, but let's not go that far.

What? Don't you believe me?

Vatter wrote: »

3. Shadow cloak mixed with path of darkness is the ultimate escape. You cannot target them, cannot attack them because they will be immune if you use detect pots, can't catch them (unless your a sorcerer then all you will be doing is aggroing npcs or use the insanely expensive retreating maneuver in which case you will just aggro npc's AND be short on stamina.) Mage light is worthless.

I was under the impression that the "detection won't work against cloak" was a fabricated rumour and I have already defeated multiple nightblades in their cloak using my detect pot to see them on the PTS, so unless this is a change they haven't introduced yet that part of your statement is wrong.

I was also under the impression that you would be able to block fear, but that turns out to be a wrongful rumour too, imagine that..
I personally think that Fear is the über cheese CC of ESO, not having a counter makes it very bothersome and there's no shortage of Nightblades spamming the *** out of it.

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

1. Any class can do this. (it's also getting fixed)
2. Petrify and Encase also work against blocking targets and unlike fear they can be used from range. Rune Prison is now instant cast which is pretty effective now since not many people hold block anyway (similar to agony).
3. There are many ways to break their cloak, gap closes, toss caltrops etc. It's also the classes main defensive ability...
4. Again, this is the same for all classes. Infact templar jabs damage doesn't get reduced by battle spirit as much as they should be (also getting fixed).
5. Once again, all classes can do this.

I don't know if this is a change that was intended but Agony on the PTS cannot be blocked, at least not from the NPCs, which it can on Live. Also I don't think you can block Rune Prison or am I wrong in thinking that?

I personally think that petrify is a more powerful CC than fear. A good player or an average group can stun lock you indefinitely since it breaks off damage. Petrify->LA->ability. I was once chain cc'd with petrify because it was being broken before I could CC break. After being killed by their group I re spawned without a weapon equipped.

Just a thought here regarding fear. It's really not any different than a DK spamming petrify, which if you guys recall actually requires a break free and a dodge roll to be free of it. What probably leads people into believing fear is OP is how quickly a NB can put damage on a feared opponent, coupled with break free having it's own GCD. By that I mean if you have just cast a skill you cannot break free until the prior skills GCD has finished.

I don't know what NB skill it is but there is one attack that can almost land simultaneous to fear and that is likely why people think fear is OP, but the skill itself is not unusual to that class of CC. It is just the case with night blades that if you are feared you will not break out of it before taking a big hit, but I don't think that is due to fear specifically. It is more to do with what ever ability is happening nearly simultaneous to fear. If there is QQ to be had it should likely be placed there, not on fear itself...IMO. Specifically the inability to use break free in time to avoid large damage, that being the intent of break free.

I think it's just minor maim (15%) damage reduction for 4 secs. Good once again for escape with the snare.

Another big problem I have with fear is that I don't always get a visual effect on it having triggered...especially when things are hectic with lots of effects going off. A lot of times I get the "roar" animations but not the purple/pink streamers and haze.

Soulac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I know quite a few Nightblades who are more than aware, how mean fear is, some even refuse using it because it is unfair.
I mean what ? A long CC, snare AND 50% less damage debuff. Fear is by far the most dangerous and strongest CC in the game. I hate Petrify, but Petrify is not that frightening actually.

15% dmg debuff.
If you complain about something better know all facts.
In 1v1 Petrify is stronger since you can't avoid it, need to break AND roll afterwards and is range based.
Fear is mostly avoidable if you dodge in the right moment to get out of range, sorry that this requires some fight awareness.
Sure it's strong, but otherwise it wouldn't be worth a slot. You need something to break block and since every stun is instant breakable no matter how long the animation is its still rather weak.
If I fight DKs I don't hit them with anything after fear since every ability activates a global cooldown.
Exception is the WW Fear which allows the WW to directly hit you while breaking free.

Fear is strong, but needed as a counter to block.
As disadvantage it got a really short range.

If you get a short unbreakable stun I'd be fine with it being blockable, but that's not the case.

Was talking to a girl, who told me it's 50%. 15% is significant, but not that OP then.

Ok, so I knew a lot of you NB players would come running as fast as you can to try and downplay the class. I would too if I were you. If my templar was this op I would defend it to the bitter end with as much desperate crying, loud screaming, L2p's and class spinning as possible. so lets start to address some of these responses.

MrGrimey wrote: »

So many false statements, I wouldn't know where to start

this is your standard troll response. offering no reason why any of the points are valid. Just a mere post to try and grab some agree's, awesome's and insightfuls. this is obviously a NB.

@silky_soft - "L2P"

same troll response here.

SkylarkAU wrote: »

9.9 times out of 10 when a NB jumps my unshielded sorc out of stealth with a fear/surprise attack combo I still have time to cc break and get my shield up without dying - this will be even easier in 1.7 so my response to OP is l2p.

In the case of macro NBs tho, well.. ಠ_ಠ

Your shields are currently bugged and scaling much higher then they should. let me guess, hardened ward and healing ward?
wait until the fix comes in, your shields will be scaled to proper amounts AND will be able to be critted then we'll see how you well you can do.

Varicite wrote: »

Hrm, OP is talking about one of those crazy full spell damage / full weapon damage / magicka / stamina NBs that spams cloak / path all day long while stacking armor pen and resto staff bubble and one-shotting dudes from full heavy armor.

Has OP regen, resources, damage, armor pen, bubbles, heals, etc. All at the same time.

Watch out guys.

I see what your trying to do there. "derrrrrrp but your mixing stamina and magicka NB's!!!!!!!" It's obvious most of the NB's here don't know about the 30k stamina, 18k magicka, 22k health (while in cyrodiil), 25k+ armor penetration, CP magicka and stamina cost reduction, max physical damage, max spell reduction, tri pot builds. The ones who actually "know how to play" don't come on the forums talking about how OP it is. Your welcome.

stewie_801 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to confirm that Shadow Cloak is not immune to detection potions.

Gonna say it from someone whose main is a DK. L2P. It's not hard to fight a NB on PTS. I've done just fine with my DK doing it.
I have zero problem breaking out of fear. Is it a good CC? Yes. Can you beat a NB who uses it? I can just fine.

A dk telling someone to l2p. hmm not sure how to respond to this one.

DDuke wrote: »

Hey @Vatter, you got three new letters: one starts with an L, another with a 2 and last one with P. Should I open them for you?


Everything you just listed are either: bugs that will be fixed, (just like undodgeable concealed weapon/whip, sorc overload bar bug, double mundus etc etc) or easily countered skills.

• Cloak? AoE, detection pot (which I still think shouldn't make your main defensive ability useless). Not to mention, stamina NBs built for damage can cast this ability maybe 5-6~ times before running completely out of magicka.
• CCStamina Drain? Break Free - 120+ days /played and I've never been killed during a CC, as long as I had stamina to break free (or didnt get bugged). Again, you can cast fear maybe 5-6 times before running completely out of magicka as stamina NB.
• Huge burst damage? Nerfed next patch, even more so as they are fixing Sharpened Mace, which actually makes me a bit worried for stam NB damage potential.
• Mobility? Yes, NBs are supposed to be one of the more mobile & evasive classes, unlike DK & Templar. Yet, I believe they lose clearly on this department to sorc Bolt Escape.

Also, you make several false statements on your post...

1. Best damage dealers are actually DKs, unless you specifically mean stealth burst. For out of stealth burst, NBs are outclassed by both Sorcs & DKs.
2. Do you really mention resto staff in your post about stamina NBs? No self respecting stamblade uses restoration staff abilities, which scale with magicka & spell damage. This is not 1.5. Also, why do you think your Honor the Dead (which scales with the aforementioned magicka & spell damage) should work well in a stamina build?
3. If you build for weapon damage, you will deal tons of damage - correct. You will also have very bad sustain, which means you have to use that cloak & sneak you complain about, in order to survive. Or tons of heavy attacks. There is no infinite amount of resources (infinite roll dodges, block, dmg shields, heals, dmg) when playing a damage dealer NB.
4. Why on earth would you be using Path of Darkness (again, benefits of that skilll do not scale well for a stamina NB) to escape as a NB, when you have skills such as Double Take, Rapid Maneuvers or a simple Panacea of Speed available to you? Path of Darkness actually reveals where you're going if you use it with cloak, and requires you to stay on the path.
5. I would swap my Fear for a Petrify in a heartbeat, so no, it is not the "best CCStamina Drain without a doubt"

I hate to reiterate but... L2P.
Or atleast educate yourself about stamina NBs and how they play before commenting - your post shows you have no clue.

bleh.....There is SO MUCH FAIL in this response post and smells of a desperate NB trying to keep his class superior.

1. detection pots DO NOT WORK all the time. Most AOE's have a 8 meter radius. Just because your a failure at your build doesn't mean cloak can't be spammed more then 6 times while playing stamina NB.
2. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
3. you have no idea about "nerfed next patch" or what any "fixes" will be. How many times has there been "fixes" in this game only to have them be the exact opposite. *cough* toppling charge stuck in animation anyone?
4. If you honestly think bolt escape will work in IC like it does in open cyrodiil then I really need to give you a LOL

1. we are not talking about pve. we are talking about IC. which is PVP. PVP is burst. NB have the best burst. period. nice try to focus on other classes rather then your own.
2. I do mention resto staff. why? because of the +300% bubble for low health. thats why. and yoou mean YOU don't use resto staff. YOU do not speak for ANY "self respecting NB's". Also, I never said I was a stamina templar. Learn to read.
3. Research max pool's vs regen before coming to the forums. Then, research it again until the light flickers on.
4. I don't know why you personally would not use path of darkness. How about because of the heal? Who on earth would take a 20% dodge chance rather then a heal? rapid maneuvers is an expensive stamina cost that ends after a single attack. uh....because tri pot is better for NB's?
5. Yes.....it is.

I hate to reiterate as well....but your post if full of so much failure made by a desperate NB it makes me laugh. So Maybe you should educate yourself on how effective other builds are before you comment - your post shows you have no clue

@Vatter

Vatter wrote: »

bleh.....There is SO MUCH FAIL in this response post and smells of a desperate NB trying to keep his class superior.

1. detection pots DO NOT WORK all the time. Most AOE's have a 8 meter radius. Just because your a failure at your build doesn't mean cloak can't be spammed more then 6 times while playing stamina NB.
2. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
3. you have no idea about "nerfed next patch" or what any "fixes" will be. How many times has there been "fixes" in this game only to have them be the exact opposite. *cough* toppling charge stuck in animation anyone?
4. If you honestly think bolt escape will work in IC like it does in open cyrodiil then I really need to give you a LOL

1. we are not talking about pve. we are talking about IC. which is PVP. PVP is burst. NB have the best burst. period. nice try to focus on other classes rather then your own.
2. I do mention resto staff. why? because of the +300% bubble for low health. thats why. and yoou mean YOU don't use resto staff. YOU do not speak for ANY "self respecting NB's". Also, I never said I was a stamina templar. Learn to read.
3. Research max pool's vs regen before coming to the forums. Then, research it again until the light flickers on.
4. I don't know why you personally would not use path of darkness. How about because of the heal? Who on earth would take a 20% dodge chance rather then a heal? rapid maneuvers is an expensive stamina cost that ends after a single attack. uh....because tri pot is better for NB's?
5. Yes.....it is.

I hate to reiterate as well....but your post if full of so much failure made by a desperate NB it makes me laugh. So Maybe you should educate yourself on how effective other builds are before you comment - your post shows you have no clue

A statement like the bolded one in a post where you inform someone they don't have a clue. That's rich.

MrGrimey wrote: »

So many false statements, I wouldn't know where to start

you are correct, prety much everything he said is hoggwash.
nightblades are now and have allways been the weakest class in eso.

DDuke wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

Yeah, I was borderline on some of the other stuff, but anyone condoning the use of Path outside of a niche use in a Skoria build is either trolling or grossly misinformed.

And with a stamina build... you're healing maybe 100 health/second in that path

Edit: checked that, 182 health/second

Yeah, works great on my PvE magika nb tank with Skoria. On all other nb builds: not using.