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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Suggestion for Crits on Damage Shields.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]Edited by ZOS_Racheal on August 8, 2015 11:54AM0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭Dots are useless anyway atm.. If Dots penetrate shields, the they would be still useless, because the dmg is just to low. Dots need to hit harder and penetrate shields and maybe reduce incoming heal. Would mean: shield counters flatdmg, dots counters shields and purge counters dots. Something like this would add more mechanics and viable builds.PC EU - DC only0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2015 12:55PM3 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭I feel like every balance controversy in this game comes down to:
1) a lack of cooldown mehcanic
2) a resource regeneration mechanic that can't seem to be tamed
Shields, scales, bolt escape, etc... what do these all have in common? They end up getting weird bandaids to address what happens when a powerful ability can be used repeatedly without delay.
Has anyone experienced good PvP in a MMO (outside of ESO) in which you could spam your most powerful class defining abilities without cooldown or running your resource pool into the ground for a considerable amount of time? I'm honestly curious; I'm sure there must be some out there and I'd like to learn more about how they maintained balance.
It's just a little discouraging to see so much continual discussion about changing the design of abilities rather than being able to simply tweak the math (because we know that's not enough).Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.0 -
Rohaus✭✭✭✭✭Yes, dis is a very bad idea.YouTube channel Rohaus Lives!
Daggerfall Covenant
VR16 DragonKnight0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
You're talking a very specific build versus a very specific build. You're also counting mitigation of all attacks versus mitigation of a % based occurrence.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as Tankqull implies?
Two things:
Firstly, reducing 197% damage back to 100% damage is a 97/197 = ~49% reduction.
Secondly, this applies only when a crit would actually happen, a decrease in damage against only crits would be worth far less than the same decrease against all damage.
Furthermore, what is wrong if there is a mechanic that turns crit useless at the expense of unmitigated damage? If people wouldn't just ignore most armor rating usually, this would just be a trade off favoring an attacker who specializes in weapon damage/max stam for his damage output, instead of crit or penetration.
Wich then also makes sense to make the main defense mechanism of light armor characters, as they get the most benefit out of it with their low mitigation.
To make that clear, I would like more variety in viable ways of defense in the game - but I don't see why it should be per se wrong to make damage shields uncritable.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
Edited by Maulkin on August 8, 2015 1:46PMEU | PC | AD1 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as Tankqull implies?
Two things:
Firstly, reducing 197% damage back to 100% damage is a 97/197 = ~49% reduction.
Secondly, this applies only when a crit would actually happen, a decrease in damage against only crits would be worth far less than the same decrease against all damage.
Furthermore, what is wrong if there is a mechanic that turns crit useless at the expense of unmitigated damage? If people wouldn't just ignore most armor rating usually, this would just be a trade off favoring an attacker who specializes in weapon damage/max stam for his damage output, instead of crit or penetration.
Wich then also makes sense to make the main defense mechanism of light armor characters, as they get the most benefit out of it with their low mitigation.
To make that clear, I would like more variety in viable ways of defense in the game - but I don't see why it should be per se wrong to make damage shields uncritable.
This, sooo much!
the problem isn't that shields are non-critable.
The problem is that everyone and their grandma have enough armor- and spellpenetration (atleast in a PTS enviroment where nirn armor is fixed) that the "shields have no mitigation" part of the coin is basically worthless... noone has mitigations anyway...0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2015 2:16PM0 -
Mr_Koh✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.1 -
Zsymon✭✭✭✭First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
All shields are bugged and too strong at the moment, wait for that to be fixed before crying for more nerfs. There is no way you could possibly know if shields "NEED" to be crittable, because you don't know how much weaker shields will get with the formula fix.
Not being able to kill a fully defensive sorc one on one is not a reason to nerf their skills, there are plenty of other builds that can achieve this, and this game is not about duels.
And IF shields ever become crittable, then they first have to fix the overflow bug, as well as penetration values, otherwise using shields would actually decrease survivability.Edited by Zsymon on August 8, 2015 2:18PM1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
EU | PC | AD2 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel3 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I totally agree with you, that's how I see it. Everyone can be unkillable and I normally die after the first CC when I have to fight multiple enemies, because I refuse to use healing ward.
I can tell you guys, shields are nowhere near OP if you don't use healing ward. Which might be the reason, why I consider this sheild op QQ as laughable and unreasonable, because I don't use the TRUE op shield which is healing ward.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac is my shield,
Magnus is my mind.
My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
That is the case, on live.
However, after next patch I doubt you'll be able to survive forever as stamina player, not with dodge roll cost stacking up the more you abuse it, block stopping stamina regen & nirnhoned nerfed (all good changes).
What remains to be seen if magicka builds will also be killable after next patch, if their shields and their mechanics dont get drastically changed.Edited by DDuke on August 8, 2015 6:05PM0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
This, resource management is basicly nonexistant atm on live and 1.7. I liked it better in 1.3 etc where resources actually mattered and you had to manage them correctly or youd loose because of it.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
Mr_Koh✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I'm starting to see why forums frustrate me. You guys are either liars or straight up bad at the game. Put a good sorc against a good nightblade and tell the night blade to go full Def. The nightblade WILL die eventually unless he is running around trees or simply running away. In PTS this nightblade will run out of resources within the first 30s or minute. You speak of good duelists I know what good duelists do because I've faced them and am a good one myself. If you want me to show you good dueling I can do that np.0 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Lol ure funny.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I'm starting to see why forums frustrate me. You guys are either liars or straight up bad at the game. Put a good sorc against a good nightblade and tell the night blade to go full Def. The nightblade WILL die eventually unless he is running around trees or simply running away. In PTS this nightblade will run out of resources within the first 30s or minute. You speak of good duelists I know what good duelists do because I've faced them and am a good one myself. If you want me to show you good dueling I can do that np.
Edit : protip for 1.7
Rall>Dodgeroll>Vigor>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic*3>Cloak>Vigor>Rally>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic... build smth around that and gl to be killed by a sorc.
Re-edit : Also why would I lie since my main is a NB?Edited by Erondil on August 8, 2015 8:04PM~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel1 -
Mr_Koh✭✭✭
Lol ure funny.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I'm starting to see why forums frustrate me. You guys are either liars or straight up bad at the game. Put a good sorc against a good nightblade and tell the night blade to go full Def. The nightblade WILL die eventually unless he is running around trees or simply running away. In PTS this nightblade will run out of resources within the first 30s or minute. You speak of good duelists I know what good duelists do because I've faced them and am a good one myself. If you want me to show you good dueling I can do that np.
Edit : protip for 1.7
Rall>Dodgeroll>Vigor>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic*3>Cloak>Vigor>Rally>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic... build smth around that and gl to be killed by a sorc.
Re-edit : Also why would I lie since my main is a NB?
Lol you're the funny one l2p0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.EU | PC | AD1 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Lol ure funny.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I'm starting to see why forums frustrate me. You guys are either liars or straight up bad at the game. Put a good sorc against a good nightblade and tell the night blade to go full Def. The nightblade WILL die eventually unless he is running around trees or simply running away. In PTS this nightblade will run out of resources within the first 30s or minute. You speak of good duelists I know what good duelists do because I've faced them and am a good one myself. If you want me to show you good dueling I can do that np.
Edit : protip for 1.7
Rall>Dodgeroll>Vigor>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic*3>Cloak>Vigor>Rally>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic... build smth around that and gl to be killed by a sorc.
Re-edit : Also why would I lie since my main is a NB?
Lol you're the funny one l2p
Thanks for the aďvice man, I'm working on it, in a mmo as in real life you never stop learning! I'm sure its not perfect and I still have a lot to learn but I think I play okish atm, judge by yourself if you want
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173271/video-dennegor-inside-an-ennemy-keep
~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel3 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.
What the hell is wrong with your logic man? You needed at least 4-5 pieces of Impentrable too, same applies for nirn. In your mind everyone ran Impenetrable but not everyone runs nirn? Lol
How did you come up with the assertion that stamina builds don't wear 5-piece nirn? In my experience they pretty much all do bar some exceptions, like there were expections with Impenetrable. The only undodgeable damage in 1.6 is Magic damage (Flame Whips, Concealed Weapon, Velocious Curse etc.), so why wouldn't you?
And again, nirn is not comparable when it comes to magic damage. It's simply vastly better. It's more efficient by 30%-60% depending on your crit chance. Go math or go home.
EU | PC | AD1 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭
Lol ure funny.mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »...
Nice, not ony ignorant but offensive too.
First off Hardened Ward is also bugged, not just Healing Ward. That was acknowledged by the devs.
Secondly, as Tankqull has said HP is behind armor mitigation. So if you heal 10k HP on somenone with 33k spell resist, I have to do 20k tooltip damage to reverse the effects of the heal, cause he mitigates half the damage. Shields don't have mitigation.
Also, heals crit. Shields don't. So if you debuff somebody for 30% his 10k heal will heal for 7k or crit for 10.5k, despite the debuff.
Until we see how shields are after the fixes we won't know if they are too strong or not.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
First off shields not being able to be crit or bled is essentially mitigated dmg since my dmg is lower on shielded opponents. Fixing the current shield situation is not enough they NEED to be critted (though I would rather have them bleed) they're too strong with the new dmg reduction. Right now if you want to kill a sorc on live you have to kill them before they can put their shields back up. If a sorc goes full defence it doesn't matter how much dmg you have, if a decent sorc doesn't want to get killed they will not be killed. This should not be the case, it's illogical to give the light armor wearers the tankiest capabilities in the game. With the TTK going up reaction time goes up which inherently buffs shield stacking.
On the live in 1v1 if a good stamina player wants to go full defensive he wont be killed. If a nb goes full defensive he wont be killed and same for templar and dk. But good duellers take risks because its the only way to kill another good player,and endless duels are just boring.
I dont see why you've a problem with sorcs "unkillable" in 1v1 while actually every class are unkillable in 1v1 if they want to.
The problem isnt shields itself, its that the ressource managment is inexistant in 1.6 and in 1.7. (In a 1vX or XvX situation shields arent op imo)
I'm starting to see why forums frustrate me. You guys are either liars or straight up bad at the game. Put a good sorc against a good nightblade and tell the night blade to go full Def. The nightblade WILL die eventually unless he is running around trees or simply running away. In PTS this nightblade will run out of resources within the first 30s or minute. You speak of good duelists I know what good duelists do because I've faced them and am a good one myself. If you want me to show you good dueling I can do that np.
Edit : protip for 1.7
Rall>Dodgeroll>Vigor>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic*3>Cloak>Vigor>Rally>Dodgeroll>Absorb magic... build smth around that and gl to be killed by a sorc.
Re-edit : Also why would I lie since my main is a NB?
Lol you're the funny one l2p
waaaiiiit a second...
he tells you that he does not die, unless taking risks.
you counter that you do, in fact, die.
Then you tell him to L2P?!
buddy, there''s lots of things you might want to call him (I especially suggest looking up synonyms revolving around the concept of "liar") - but learn to play is obviously not among them...3 -
Morvul✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Go math or go home.
obviously math and facts have no place in this discussion.
After all, we've just learned that reducing crit damage from ~190% of base (given extreme crit builds and ignoring any mitigations) down to base (100%, obviously) is in fact a reduction in damage by 100%...
so..... good bye maths, it was nice to be acquainted...Edited by Morvul on August 9, 2015 6:18AM2 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.
What the hell is wrong with your logic man? You needed at least 4-5 pieces of Impentrable too, same applies for nirn. In your mind everyone ran Impenetrable but not everyone runs nirn? Lol
How did you come up with the assertion that stamina builds don't wear 5-piece nirn? In my experience they pretty much all do bar some exceptions, like there were expections with Impenetrable. The only undodgeable damage in 1.6 is Magic damage (Flame Whips, Concealed Weapon, Velocious Curse etc.), so why wouldn't you?
And again, nirn is not comparable when it comes to magic damage. It's simply vastly better. It's more efficient by 30%-60% depending on your crit chance. Go math or go home.
When is the last time you seen nirnhoned on a dropped piece of gear, for example.. Monster mask sets. It's far easier to get impen on sets vs nirnhoned for that simple reason. So let's assume you take a set like engine guardian for example. That's 2 pieces gone from your setup right away if you want nirn.. It however comes in impentrable though. What is the second most common used gear in the game for stamina builds.. Ravager chest and legs with jewelry, which don't come in nirn.. It comes in you guessed it... Impentrable....that leaves boots,gloves,belt left for nirnhoned.. If they opt not to use engine guardian and instead go hunding rage you can hit five, but based on the fact that engine is so dang good it's usually not comparable at all.
That's of course completely ignoring if they go any number of other sets like air and skirmisher which has neither trait.. In which case crit immunity on shields is a huge bonus but it'd be a huge bonus in 1.5 as well.
In the end you don't see 5 piece nirnhoned as much as you think.. 3 and 4 pieces are far more common on stamina builds.. I actually saw 5 piece nirnhoned on magicka builds more often then not because a lot used Magnus 4 piece in the build setup.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
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