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Suggestion for Crits on Damage Shields.
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.
What the hell is wrong with your logic man? You needed at least 4-5 pieces of Impentrable too, same applies for nirn. In your mind everyone ran Impenetrable but not everyone runs nirn? Lol
How did you come up with the assertion that stamina builds don't wear 5-piece nirn? In my experience they pretty much all do bar some exceptions, like there were expections with Impenetrable. The only undodgeable damage in 1.6 is Magic damage (Flame Whips, Concealed Weapon, Velocious Curse etc.), so why wouldn't you?
And again, nirn is not comparable when it comes to magic damage. It's simply vastly better. It's more efficient by 30%-60% depending on your crit chance. Go math or go home.
When is the last time you seen nirnhoned on a dropped piece of gear, for example.. Monster mask sets. It's far easier to get impen on sets vs nirnhoned for that simple reason. So let's assume you take a set like engine guardian for example. That's 2 pieces gone from your setup right away if you want nirn.. It however comes in impentrable though. What is the second most common used gear in the game for stamina builds.. Ravager chest and legs with jewelry, which don't come in nirn.. It comes in you guessed it... Impentrable....that leaves boots,gloves,belt left for nirnhoned.. If they opt not to use engine guardian and instead go hunding rage you can hit five, but based on the fact that engine is so dang good it's usually not comparable at all.
That's of course completely ignoring if they go any number of other sets like air and skirmisher which has neither trait.. In which case crit immunity on shields is a huge bonus but it'd be a huge bonus in 1.5 as well.
In the end you don't see 5 piece nirnhoned as much as you think.. 3 and 4 pieces are far more common on stamina builds.. I actually saw 5 piece nirnhoned on magicka builds more often then not because a lot used Magnus 4 piece in the build setup.
I see Hunding's and Whitestrake more than I see Ravager or Air in PvP. 3 pieces are enough to push a stamina build well past the cap when you use a skill that gives Major Resolve (or for NBs you use a Shadow ability to get the 8k armor and spell res from Shadow Barrier passive).
40k Spell Res is way more common than you think.EU | PC | AD0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.
What the hell is wrong with your logic man? You needed at least 4-5 pieces of Impentrable too, same applies for nirn. In your mind everyone ran Impenetrable but not everyone runs nirn? Lol
How did you come up with the assertion that stamina builds don't wear 5-piece nirn? In my experience they pretty much all do bar some exceptions, like there were expections with Impenetrable. The only undodgeable damage in 1.6 is Magic damage (Flame Whips, Concealed Weapon, Velocious Curse etc.), so why wouldn't you?
And again, nirn is not comparable when it comes to magic damage. It's simply vastly better. It's more efficient by 30%-60% depending on your crit chance. Go math or go home.
When is the last time you seen nirnhoned on a dropped piece of gear, for example.. Monster mask sets. It's far easier to get impen on sets vs nirnhoned for that simple reason. So let's assume you take a set like engine guardian for example. That's 2 pieces gone from your setup right away if you want nirn.. It however comes in impentrable though. What is the second most common used gear in the game for stamina builds.. Ravager chest and legs with jewelry, which don't come in nirn.. It comes in you guessed it... Impentrable....that leaves boots,gloves,belt left for nirnhoned.. If they opt not to use engine guardian and instead go hunding rage you can hit five, but based on the fact that engine is so dang good it's usually not comparable at all.
That's of course completely ignoring if they go any number of other sets like air and skirmisher which has neither trait.. In which case crit immunity on shields is a huge bonus but it'd be a huge bonus in 1.5 as well.
In the end you don't see 5 piece nirnhoned as much as you think.. 3 and 4 pieces are far more common on stamina builds.. I actually saw 5 piece nirnhoned on magicka builds more often then not because a lot used Magnus 4 piece in the build setup.
I see Hunding's and Whitestrake more than I see Ravager or Air in PvP. 3 pieces are enough to push a stamina build well past the cap when you use a skill that gives Major Resolve (or for NBs you use a Shadow ability to get the 8k armor and spell res from Shadow Barrier passive).
40k Spell Res is way more common than you think.
You need more then 3 pieces, I run 4 for example and I don't break 40k on my nightblade. White strakes tends to be more common in duel builds or tournaments but less common in open settings because you need to kill fast and you can't sit around screwing around for 10 mins. I'd say skirmisher is actually more common and then all.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Not the case mate.
If you increased your crit damage by 100% and had a crit chance of 30% than your average damage is:
0.7*x + 0.3 * (2x) = 1.3x
Which means your avg damage is 30% higher. Not 100% higher. Shields don't mitigate 100% extra damage all the time. They mitigate the spikes but receive more avg damage than someone with armor.
Also, let's not forget that there are passive to reduce crit damage like there are passives to increase crit damage too. So your calculation is rather on the extreme side.
Anyhow I would not be opposed to shields being critted if they had a chance to crit themselves or they had same mitigation as the player (which would also fix the overflow situation). But before I would contemplate the latter I want to see armor penetration fixed. Cause while people penetrate 100% of your armor at 0 cost to them, there's no point adding armor mitigation to shields.
That is partially correct, but the fact is that burst kills players, not sustained damage (largely thanks to the strength of these shields & heals).
Also, the bare minimum crit % for players (atleast stamina builds) is around 50% currently, making these shields act as 50% damage reduction vs sustained DPS (and much, much more vs burst).
As for the critical damage reducing passive, that is not really worth putting points into for any class with strong dmg shields. From warrior points, you get more benefit from: Bastion Spell Shield, Elemental Resistance, Hardy, Block Expertise, Quick Recovery.
Where as with Mage points, Precise Strikes is the second most important, right after Mighty.
Now, this is largely due to Sharpened Mace bug (otherwise Piercing would be more beneficial, as it helps vs blocking targets atleast), but you'd still end up with Precise Strikes being the second or third passive you invest points into, where as crit dmg reduction is somewhere around 6th or 7th.
I would also like to see Sharpened Maces fixed, same as the overflow bug (which makes Champion passives such as Reinforced & Determination actually work against you), but shields need to become crittable (though I'm willing to test their bug fixed versions first, once EU character copies are made).
They've been broken far too long in this game.
No buddy, that's not how it works. You can't say that burst and crits kills players, that you stack it through the roof, and then tell me the crit dmg reduction passive is useless. Especially where there is no other passive to reduce physical damage which makes it your best bet to reduce physical burst. On my Sorc after Bastion passive got past 85 CPs, Resistant is the one passive I put CPs under.
I find it absolutely useless to put CPs under passives that reduce magic and elemental damage or block cost reduction when a) magicka builds rarely block even on live b) against magic damage I have 2 shields to stack thanks to harness magicka and c) I have BoL that absorbs all magicka projectiles.
I'm already 20 CPs deep into Resistant.
Shields are broken but only insofar as not allowing certain CC effects on shielded targets. That's nowhere near as broken as armor penetration is atm.
The thing that makes shields extremely strong is the stupid levels or regen and sustain achieved without soft caps and the champion system which allows you to spam them forever. The very same shields were nowhere near OP from 1.0 to 1.5. Sorc was not even the best class for duels.
Like I said, for crits to be allowed on shields I would expect them to either apply mitigation to the incoming hits or be able to crit themselves.
That has more to do with the fact that every spec could achieve 100% crit immunity. Right now to get 100% crit immunity you have to wear a 5 piece heavy set and dump a lot of points into CP Crit reduction when all a Sorc has to do is put up a shield.
That change alone was a MASSIVE damage boost to Sorcs in comparison to other classes
The very fact that people are still trying to argue that its just Healing Ward that's overpowered and nothing else still boggles my mind..Cause if that was the case Both Templars and DK's right now would be just as overpowered as Sorcs on PTS.
Healing Ward is overpowered..But so is Hardened Ward..
You keep harping on about Impenetrable. I have already explained to you in at least 2 other threads that nirnhorned in 1.6 reduced magic damage way more (as a % of base) than Impenetrable ever did in 1.5.
It's elementary school maths. I'd advise you to revisit those threads. If you can't accept the facts, then at least have the decency to not spout these theories of yours to me.
Also like we said 100 times, on PTS Hardened Ward is bugged and gives a bigger shield than it should. So ofc it's OP. And so is Healing Ward. That' makes 2 OP, stackable shields. When they gets fixed, we'll see where we stand.
Nirmhoned is comparable if you ran 5+ pieces of it, considering most stamina builds do not run 5 pieces it in no way is comparable to full crit immunity.
What the hell is wrong with your logic man? You needed at least 4-5 pieces of Impentrable too, same applies for nirn. In your mind everyone ran Impenetrable but not everyone runs nirn? Lol
How did you come up with the assertion that stamina builds don't wear 5-piece nirn? In my experience they pretty much all do bar some exceptions, like there were expections with Impenetrable. The only undodgeable damage in 1.6 is Magic damage (Flame Whips, Concealed Weapon, Velocious Curse etc.), so why wouldn't you?
And again, nirn is not comparable when it comes to magic damage. It's simply vastly better. It's more efficient by 30%-60% depending on your crit chance. Go math or go home.
When is the last time you seen nirnhoned on a dropped piece of gear, for example.. Monster mask sets. It's far easier to get impen on sets vs nirnhoned for that simple reason. So let's assume you take a set like engine guardian for example. That's 2 pieces gone from your setup right away if you want nirn.. It however comes in impentrable though. What is the second most common used gear in the game for stamina builds.. Ravager chest and legs with jewelry, which don't come in nirn.. It comes in you guessed it... Impentrable....that leaves boots,gloves,belt left for nirnhoned.. If they opt not to use engine guardian and instead go hunding rage you can hit five, but based on the fact that engine is so dang good it's usually not comparable at all.
That's of course completely ignoring if they go any number of other sets like air and skirmisher which has neither trait.. In which case crit immunity on shields is a huge bonus but it'd be a huge bonus in 1.5 as well.
In the end you don't see 5 piece nirnhoned as much as you think.. 3 and 4 pieces are far more common on stamina builds.. I actually saw 5 piece nirnhoned on magicka builds more often then not because a lot used Magnus 4 piece in the build setup.
I see Hunding's and Whitestrake more than I see Ravager or Air in PvP. 3 pieces are enough to push a stamina build well past the cap when you use a skill that gives Major Resolve (or for NBs you use a Shadow ability to get the 8k armor and spell res from Shadow Barrier passive).
40k Spell Res is way more common than you think.
You need more then 3 pieces, I run 4 for example and I don't break 40k on my nightblade. White strakes tends to be more common in duel builds or tournaments but less common in open settings because you need to kill fast and you can't sit around screwing around for 10 mins. I'd say skirmisher is actually more common and then all.
I'd say the countrary actually. In a duel you dont need so much the extra survivability of whitestrake+nirn (except agaisnt a magicka dk/nb and their undodgeable whip/concelead weapon) while you need a huge burst to kill a good player in 1.6, with whitestrake sure you wont die but you wont kill unless your ennemy does a huge mistake (its the way to go if you like 30mins fights tho).
In openworld 1vX you dont need that much burst to kill most of opponents because they arent as god as duelists, and if youre good at light attack + skill + bash cancel, even with whitestrake you have more burst than enough for most of the fights, especially since nirn permites to stay in melee much much longer than anything else.
On the other hand, you will have hard times without nirn in 1vX to survive all the beams spammer, detonation spammers (stuff you easily interrupt in 1v1) and overall all those bugged projectiles that hit you through dodgeroll. With skirmisher it will certainly be easier to kill stuff in open pvp, but so is to die, and once you've mastered light attacks and bash cancel, you can have a huge burst even with whitestrake/hunding rage and 5 nirn.
Just my opinion.~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
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AssaultLemming✭✭✭✭
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Yeah....No. Please check your maths.
Because crit is a % chance to deal damage + 50% then you need to cut your crit % in half to calculate the additional damage that crit generates (or is mitigated by a shield) if your crit % is 50% then you deal an additional 25% damage.
50% x 50% = 25%
To calculate how much damage a shield mitigates you now need to work on a value of 125%, a shield mitigates the additional 25% which is 20% of your total damage.
25% x 125% = 20%
Edited by AssaultLemming on August 10, 2015 8:15AM0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just make the critical damage itself mitigated by a percentage.
Problem solved, shields aren't useless but Sorcs don't get to run around like an Abrams or Paladin.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AssaultLemming wrote: »
A shame that damage shields actually reduce the damage you take by up to 95%, depending on how many crit modifiers your opponent has.
A pale figure in comparison to the 10-30% damage mitigation you get from armour while spamming heals (further reduced by Major/Minor Fracture debuffs).
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]
Are you seriously telling me it's possible to increase your sustained damage by 1900% with crit?
I don't quite follow you here... what are you trying to say?
I'm simply stating that instead of dealing the minimum 150% damage critical strikes deal, you're dealing only 100% (normal damage) on damage shields (unmitigated).
So in other words, you'd rather be hitting a target with 50% damage mitigation via heavy armour (since that can be reduced with debuffs) than someone with a magic bubble up.
That is without counting in critical strike modifiers: +10% for NBs & Templars via passives, +25% via Champion System - we are now at 185%, 85% of damage mitigated by damage shields.
Then there is the Shadow Mundus, +12% critical strike damage - we are now at 197%, 97% damage mitigated by damage shields.
You can add in Archer's Mind (which you shouldn't, since it's a horrible set) for a 102% out of stealth crit damage increase.
This, without factoring in stealth damage modifier of 15%-30% (varies depending on ability) that is dependent on your ability critting.
So, how does dealing unmitigated damage "justify" this, as @Tankqull implies?
Yeah....No. Please check your maths.
Because crit is a % chance to deal damage + 50% then you need to cut your crit % in half to calculate the additional damage that crit generates (or is mitigated by a shield) if your crit % is 50% then you deal an additional 25% damage.
50% x 50% = 25%
To calculate how much damage a shield mitigates you now need to work on a value of 125%, a shield mitigates the additional 25% which is 20% of your total damage.
25% x 125% = 20%
Yes, but we are talking of the optimal scenario where several crits would line up.
You don't kill people without burst damage in this game and you don't get enough meaningful burst damage without crits, which is why even on live you better pray your attacks crit after the several attack rotations that took the damage shield down. With longer TTK, this becomes all the more important.
Also, just to fix your math: the absolute minimum critical damage modifier for a NB or Templar (assuming you have invested the 2 skill points in a passive) is 160%, so with 50% critical strike chance your additional dmg from critical strikes would be 30%. Throw in a Shadow Mundus and you'd have 172% critical strike modifier, or 36% overall damage increase.
Then you can add the sneak attack modifiers etc and come to the conclusion that damage reduced is far more than 20%, and 20% is actually more than most medium armour characters have in form of damage mitigation from armour and much, much more than a light armour character could ever have as mitigation.0 -
HeroOfNone✭✭✭✭✭
✭HeroOfNone wrote: »I would not recommend a blanket improvement to DOTs, we should put a bit more thought to it.
Poisons, bleeds, disease should work better against enemies with out shields, physical damage and debuffs that need to get through a shield.
Fire, frost, and electrical would give higher damage on shields, stripping them down faster, but then you're hitting armor and spell mitigations when you get through.
Melee hits, arrows, and standard staff attacks would all do standard un crit able damage. This is what they are made to soak up.
This makes a rock paper scissors game with most classes, nightblades able to surprise attack but not do a lot of damage to shielded opponents. But DKS and Templars might be able burst down that shield better than others, forcing sorcs to run away less they suffer low magicka from constantly putting up shields. NBS though constantly waiting for glass cannons that don't bother slotting a Damage shield.
This would also force some to clense and then put on a damage shield, instead of shielding and ignoring the damage.
I like this in concept because it adds variability to the game, though I don't know what you mean here " physical damage and debuffs that need to get through a shield" so I'll just leave that aside.
Thought of these for elemental types.- Frost freezes a shield making it brittle, shield takes x% more damage per attack from any source or player. Lasts 4 seconds, applies to total shield value or any shield reapplied within the 4 seconds window.
- Electricity disrupts the shield. Any electrical damage does X% more damage to shield value only.
- Fire burns parts of the shield leaving an opening. Applies X% shield penetration for 4 seconds, applies to total shield value or any shield reapplied within the 4 second window.
When I say total shield value here I mean it treats any number of layered shields as one massive shield. These would have to be direct effects from elements, not secondary effects. This is because secondary effects are unlikely to occur due to the recent nerf. Damage values can be low, or they can be high if there is a cooldown for their application.
Just some thoughts that would add variety and strategy to the issue.
Sorry, meant "high armor and regen" in sustain type builds.Francescolg wrote: »
I am sorry but this "builds" are not negated mainly by absorb shields but by the cheap and spammable skill named Purge/Cleanse, which every, really every single PvP group is spamming.HeroOfNone wrote: »[absorb shields] almost totally negate DOT builds in general, something DKs specialize in.
Also dark cloak. The group play is one issue that I see needs to be addressed separate to solo player shields. If you see my posts on possible DK improvements I include an option for a DOT that can't be purged0