VincentBlanquin wrote: »

problem is, devs stated directly at last liveshow, they want to have argonian passives as they are now. and ask for stop bitching about them (of sort)

Worse than that, they laughed at "sad" Argonian players. I was really amused at the derisive attitude. Normally, corporations know better than to let people without filters speak in a public forum.

Talk about unprofessional. Why wouxld you first insult and then laugh at a section of your customer base?
One can only hope that this was a joke rather than a firmly held opinion.

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
For your easy perusing, here is a compiled list of common suggestions on how to make Argonians more competitive with races that have objectively better passives while maintain the race's "theme" you all mentioned in the last ESO Live (note this is just a list of possibilities, not saying all of these should be implemented):

[*] Given the large potion cooldown/gold cost and the fact that the regen effect from a potion is not as important as the initial stat replenish, the % of stat restored from a potion needs to be higher still.
[*] In addition to restoring stats on potion use, also buff max stats by X% for the duration of the potion.
[*] In addition to restoring stats on potion use, also include a passive that decreases potion cooldown by 5/10/15 seconds (which could then stack with Potion Speed jewelry enchants).
[*] Further increase bonus to max health up to 9% to be on par with other races, and generally help close the gap between the two most powerful races (Imperial and Altmer) and all the others.
[*] Further increase the amount of healing received, since it is undervalued compared to +max health, the only racial that is nerfed just by entering cyrodiil/IC, and offers less healing power than Imperials' Red Diamond passive.
[*] Make the passive to healing received also count toward healing given.
[*] Increase value of Poison/Disease resistance passive.
[*] Make Disease resistance apply directly to disease abilities (eg Venom Arrow), lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults).
[*] On top of swim speed bonus, allow Argonians to maintain stealth while swimming.

I really REALLY wish we Lizards would stop supporting the craptastic potion skill. It was the only thing we really had going for us but 1.6 and beyond make it a blight on our racials. IT NEEDS TO GO. period. We should really be concentrating on adding better, NEW and useful abilities.

Allowing us to stay invis while in the water is an interesting idea. If that happens though it should also apply to slaughterfish (and allow Argonians to move more freely than other races in PvP) I don't know if they would support it since you could build a toon that could perma invis and explore past the shorelines in all areas. This could be stopped with a hard line further out but that would require.........work.

And to those wanting magicka added.......Argonians have never ever been known as mages and historically never had any bonuses in that area.

I once did some digging into all previous ES games related to Argonians and these were what kept coming up:

- Underwater breathing
- Trained in guerrilla warfare
- Sharp teeth giving them an advantage in unarmed combat
- Effective thieves and assassins
- Best suited as a close quarters assassin
- Shadowscale
- Witch Hunter
- Best for a thief style of play
- The Argonian's stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers
- Disease resistance
- Immune to poison
- Histskin health regeneration

We also do have a naturally scaly hide that is probably at LEAST as good as light armor all by itself.

Just some things to think about......

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I really REALLY wish we Lizards would stop supporting the craptastic potion skill. It was the only thing we really had going for us but 1.6 and beyond make it a blight on our racials. IT NEEDS TO GO. period. We should really be concentrating on adding better, NEW and useful abilities.

We also do have a naturally scaly hide that is probably at LEAST as good as light armor all by itself.

Just some things to think about......

So maybe change this example (from a proposal on redoing the racial passive system)...

...to this?

tinythinker wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I really REALLY wish we Lizards would stop supporting the craptastic potion skill. It was the only thing we really had going for us but 1.6 and beyond make it a blight on our racials. IT NEEDS TO GO. period. We should really be concentrating on adding better, NEW and useful abilities.

We also do have a naturally scaly hide that is probably at LEAST as good as light armor all by itself.

Just some things to think about......

So maybe change this example (from a proposal on redoing the racial passive system)...

Under the system proposed (again with a cap of 9 points total) you could choose from options such as:

Restoration Expertise: Free passive.
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Amphibious
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(_) Reduces potion cool-down by 10 seconds and returns 8% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.
(_) Reduces potion cool-down by 15 seconds and returns 10% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(_) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 30%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 30% while in stealth.

...to this?

Under the system proposed (again with a cap of 9 points total) you could choose from options such as:

Restoration Expertise: Free passive.
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Argonian Fitness
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease Resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(_) Increase Physical Resistance by 3000.
(_) Increase Physical Resistance by 6000.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 30%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 30% while in stealth.

Interestingly, I was thinking about how the racials in general pigeonhole races into certain classes/builds and they should be re-tooled with options very much like what you outlined.

I would however make the first level in all options FREE. It's what the race is. You don't have to spend points on them, you start with them.

Ditch "Xxxxxx Expertise" - I put pts into this originally because I didn't know better but have long since specced out of it. This ability only helps very select builds and ONLY until you are lvl 50, then it's useless.

You are then allowed to spend 6-7 pts on upgrades across the 5 options.

So taking and blending your 2 options for Argonians I would probably do:

Amphibious
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(+1) Reduces potion cool-down by 10 seconds and returns 6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.
(+2) Reduces potion cool-down by 15 seconds and returns 9% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.

Argonian Fitness
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(+1) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(+2) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease Resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(+1) Increase Physical Resistance by 2500.
(+2) Increase Physical Resistance by 4000.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(+1) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(+2) Increases health regeneration by 25%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(+1) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(+2) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 25% while in stealth.

* = Free

PlagueMonk wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

I really REALLY wish we Lizards would stop supporting the craptastic potion skill. It was the only thing we really had going for us but 1.6 and beyond make it a blight on our racials. IT NEEDS TO GO. period. We should really be concentrating on adding better, NEW and useful abilities.

We also do have a naturally scaly hide that is probably at LEAST as good as light armor all by itself.

Just some things to think about......

So maybe change this example (from a proposal on redoing the racial passive system)...

Under the system proposed (again with a cap of 9 points total) you could choose from options such as:

Restoration Expertise: Free passive.
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Amphibious
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(_) Reduces potion cool-down by 10 seconds and returns 8% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.
(_) Reduces potion cool-down by 15 seconds and returns 10% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(_) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 30%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 30% while in stealth.

...to this?

Under the system proposed (again with a cap of 9 points total) you could choose from options such as:

Restoration Expertise: Free passive.
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Argonian Fitness
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(_) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease Resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(_) Increase Physical Resistance by 3000.
(_) Increase Physical Resistance by 6000.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(_) Increases health regeneration by 30%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(_) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 30% while in stealth.

Interestingly, I was thinking about how the racials in general pigeonhole races into certain classes/builds and they should be re-tooled with options very much like what you outlined.

I would however make the first level in all options FREE. It's what the race is. You don't have to spend points on them, you start with them.

Ditch "Xxxxxx Expertise" - I put pts into this originally because I didn't know better but have long since specced out of it. This ability only helps very select builds and ONLY until you are lvl 50, then it's useless.

You are then allowed to spend 6-7 pts on upgrades across the 5 options.

So taking and blending your 2 options for Argonians I would probably do:

Amphibious
(*) Increases swimming speed by 50% and reduces damage taken while swimming by 50%.
(+1) Reduces potion cool-down by 10 seconds and returns 8% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.
(+2) Reduces potion cool-down by 15 seconds and returns 10% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina when a potion is consumed.

Argonian Fitness
(*) Decreases cost of Break Free by 25%.
(+1) Increases Max Health by 6%.
(+2) Increases Max Health by 9%.

Argonian Resistance
(*) Increases Poison and Disease Resistance by 75% (to include less damage taken and reduced debuff effect, not sure what "numbers" that would be in the current system).
(+1) Increase Physical Resistance by 3000.
(+2) Increase Physical Resistance by 6000.

Rapid Mending
(*) Increases healing received by 10%.
(+1) Increases health regeneration by 15%.
(+2) Increases health regeneration by 30%.

Shadowscale]
(*) Increases speed while stealthed by 10%.
(+1) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 15% while in stealth.
(+2) Increases stamina and magicka regeneration by 30% while in stealth.

* = Free

You could make those free but in the end you still end up with the same amount of points for the other options to keep it limited/customized (six in your version). I like the idea of one point for a basic feature in each tree then up to two more to customize (for up to three fully filled out trees with nine points or scattering them more broadly but getting less effect). Not wedded to the idea, but it gives more of a sense of progression.

Oh, and you had two versions of the same thing by combining the options so I modified it. The change is highlighted in italics. I mean, the choices work if only one or the other passive tree is used, but if both are in then it's kind of a waste to duplicate swim speed.

tinythinker wrote: »

Oh, and you had two versions of the same thing by combining the options so I modified it. The change is highlighted in italics. I mean, the choices work if only one or the other passive tree is used, but if both are in then it's kind of a waste to duplicate swim speed.

oh yes, I even knew that but forgot about it at the last minute

I would recommend though that it be 3% health

Dracane wrote: »

I got killed by an Argonian player yesterday.

I know it happens rarely, don't get butt hurt by it.....they just got lucky

I think the best we can hope for is either Eric Wrobel gets fired or moves on like Paul Sage. For now, we live under a hostile regime.

@lolzbuckets

Wait and see what players can do is a better strategy rather than rushing into changes, but i agree the Argonian swiming pasive makes little, if anything, sense.

The trouble is the swim passive makes lore sense but is being treated like it actually provides an in game benefit. It doesn't, it is entirely fluff as there is no combat in water, no underwater areas and swimming too far or in the wrong place is a quick way to die. It's not even as if there is a swimming contest quest...

So please zos do not factor swim speed into racial balance... Or If you must give all races an entirely useless passive to compensate such as an emote...

vortexman11 wrote: »

Argonians have Restoration Expertise but no passives that help in healing others or magicka regen

#Logic

I am actually fine with the selfish bonus healing passives, but it would significantly more synergistic as a healing initiated buff.

Also, not sure how they would spin it flavor-wise, but I think the potion passive would be more interesting if drinking a potion triggered a small aoe heal that retestored a small % health, magicka, and stamina to nearby allies (maybe 3 meter radius).

Well to ZoS's credit they did a small buff to all the other passives but Amphibious needs to be changed out for any other lore passive, better stealth, gorilla warfare bonus (like a damage buff for 10 seconds when in melee range, from a non combat state), we are "adepts of blade and magic" as the damn ESO homepage says, an armor buff from the fact that our scales are just like cro scales the stuff you made armor out of to cover your skin is our skin so many other options

Update: Brian Wheeler relayed a question to Eric Wrobel during the Dev Let's Play stream a little bit ago, asking about update to Argonian passives. Wrobel said all their passives are getting increased in the next PTS patch, but didn't say how much. Hopefully it's not the paltry amounts they announced in the ESO Live.