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The Uselessness of Heavy Armor.
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hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy Armor should increase sustain by damage mitigation .
HOW to do that is up to ZOS.
Recovery of Stamina, Health and/of Magicka is perhaps practical to lessen the gap with LA and MA, but is from filosofy wrong :-(
Heavy Armor should increase sustain by damage mitigation.
Increasing healing AND Health pool with 1% is almost equivalent to increase damage mitigation with 1%.
Decrease cost of blocking for HA is weird. Perhaps it WAS practical, but now it is only weird
HEAVY ARMOR SHOULD INCREASE SUSTAIN BY DAMAGE MITIGATION.
My personal estimate for balanced HA value is approx 4 % damage mitigation per piece of HA
28% straight damage mitigation compared to LA 21% more spells at approx 12.5% higher effect (5% crit+ 7.5% spell penetration) is still weak
The argument that Armor and Spell Resist is higher with HA does not count, because LA will use damage shields or use hit and run/cloack.
Anyway, the HOW can be done in many ways....
Dear Devs, Please Please reconsider the current passives.
Using HA because I always want to plat in HA feels quite silly atm.
Edited by hrothbern on August 7, 2015 7:45PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU4 -
SeptimusDova✭✭✭✭✭
✭david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »List of things that ZOS just can't get right because they just aren't listening to their players:
--Heavy Armor
--Argonians
--Templars
--Werewolves
Anything I missed?
Expanded emotes and a lag free Cyrodiil
.. Oh and free beer
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Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Before any one ask no this is not about adding sexist female armor into the game nor about adding prettier armor but there skills.
So any way sure as alot know armor is this game is kinda broken cause players in light armor and medium armor can last as long if not longer than those in heavy armor and reason being is that light armor allows you to cast magic base skills using less magic which of course allows for the broken mechanic of shield stacking while medium armor has reduce cost of dodging which of course allows them to dodge spells, skills, CC and so on while heavy armor best defense option it has is reduce block cost which isn't much use if you are not using a shield but of those who want heavy armor and say use a 2H weapon or duel wield are left in the rain cause sure there blocking is less but isn't as good as with a shield.
But that's just some passives as for other such as the recovery part cause all 3 armor groups do offer recovery heavy gets the low end again cause both light and medium armor get a 4% recovery bonus per piece of armor the wear to there magicak/stamina while heavy armor only get 1% helth recovery bonus per pices so that's 28% to 7%. What's the deal why do light and medium get this giant bonus to recovery while heavy armor only get this tiny bit you think heavy have more since there more likely to be attacked by NPC cause there most likely the tank.
Another few passive is that light and medium armor give spell/weapon damage, crit, and penetration bonuses while heavy armor just gives a small bonus to armor and spell res and health which honestly doesn't matter when players can by-pass litteraly half to all of your armor and spell res.
So far on live and PTS light and medium armor give just as good defense as heavy armor but also giving players offensive bonuses on top of the defensive bonuses while heavy armor only offers defensive bonuses which isn't much when players can by pass of of that armor and spell res
So just hear me out about this and some change I feel IMO that could make heavy armor much much better. First change all it's passives to be offers by per piece of armor you wear just like the recovery passives that way it can offer more defense to glass DPS players cause I'm sure most of you meet a glass DPS who dies in 1 or 2 blows and starts to complain about how it's the tank fault or the healers. Second make each piece worth 5% so health recovery if wear in 7 will be 35% along with the reduce block cost and armor and spell res bonuses for the armor and spell res be roughly about a 5K boost which makes sense cause it's heavy armor you're giving up that damage boost for defense. Third add a reduce break free cost and reduce snare effect to heavy armor cause again heavy armor you're giving up damage for defense and I'm pretty sure metal caltrops wouldn't be as effective o some one wearing metal boots versus some guy wearing leather or clothed boots. Forth make it scale with health to do something maybe reduce the cost of ultimate or something cause right now health is a waste for attribute point cause you can just fill in the health gap with enchantments.
Again these are just some opinions I have about how heavy armor can be much better and can offer better defense for both tanks and DPS cause a DPS player in say light armor can trade out the boots and gloves or something and get a 10% boost to armor, spell res, health, health recovery, break free, block, and snare reduction while also having that DPS power.
Also last note make it so you need to wear atleast 5 pieces of the armor to use the armor skill.
Quote from a thread I made about how to improve HA IMO cause yes it has defense but the thing is the defense options MA and LA offer are much better ...... specialy with the penetration stuff turning 20K+ armor and spell res into 10k-0 -
Draehl✭✭✭Suggestion:
1) Resolve: stays the same if pen values are nerfed.
2) Constitution: health recovery bonus of 56% and gain 14% of max magicka/stamina when hit, every 6 seconds.
3) Juggernaut: 14% bonus to max health at 7 pieces and +7% to physical melee damage.
4) Bracing: 20% reduced block cost and +2 seconds CC immunity after breaking free.
5) Rapid Mending: +7% to healing received, and +7% to healing done.
This way heavy armor actually becomes desirable and an equal choice to the large bonuses gained from medium/light armor.
Looks good, though I wouldn't pigeonhole heavy armor into just physical melee attacks. I've wanted to play a heavy armor caster for quite some time, but they're just too weak in many regards to even bother. Light = magicka. Medium = stamina. Heavy should be more neutral.
Better yet Juggernaut increases heavy attack damage and resource return for ALL weapons. Give them an upper hand when fights last longer and they're heavy attacking for resources- get a little more back and do a little more damage. That and heavy armor users are really the only ones that can feasibly heavy attack without getting railroaded or losing too much damage for not weaving.
Edited by Draehl on August 7, 2015 9:52PMMain: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto0 -
Zsymon✭✭✭✭Looks good, though I wouldn't pigeonhole heavy armor into just physical melee attacks. I've wanted to play a heavy armor caster for quite some time, but they're just too weak in many regards to even bother. Light = magicka. Medium = stamina. Heavy should be more neutral.
Better yet Juggernaut increases heavy attack damage and resource return for ALL weapons. Give them an upper hand when fights last longer and they're heavy attacking for resources- get a little more back and do a little more damage. That and heavy armor users are really the only ones that can feasibly heavy attack without getting railroaded or losing too much damage for not weaving.
Well they were just suggestions, I'm sure more experienced players can come up with better ones.0 -
Draehl✭✭✭Looks good, though I wouldn't pigeonhole heavy armor into just physical melee attacks. I've wanted to play a heavy armor caster for quite some time, but they're just too weak in many regards to even bother. Light = magicka. Medium = stamina. Heavy should be more neutral.
Better yet Juggernaut increases heavy attack damage and resource return for ALL weapons. Give them an upper hand when fights last longer and they're heavy attacking for resources- get a little more back and do a little more damage. That and heavy armor users are really the only ones that can feasibly heavy attack without getting railroaded or losing too much damage for not weaving.
Well they were just suggestions, I'm sure more experienced players can come up with better ones.
Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to shoot you down or anything. Not my intent =DMain: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto0 -
MrBeatDown✭✭✭✭I want them to make a shield count as Heavy Armor so you can get the 5 piece passive 20% block reduction cost with SB passive and leaves you another open space to put whatever you want for more sustain in a gear slot, even if its only a 2% increase for Fighters Guild Passive, you can still upgrade stats slightlty for a different armor type.0
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Wing✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭just figured I would post my support for buffing heavy armor.
my personal idea was to remove the block cost reduction for wearing 5 pieces and add flat damage reduction (like the nord passive) for wearing 5 pieces, something like 10% at rank 1, and 20% at rank 2.
this does pull power away from blocking, but that does seem to be what ZoS wants to do.ESO player since beta.
game got too disappointing.1 -
Plaid13ub17_ESO✭✭✭Hasnt everyone figured it out yet? They are slowly removing tanks from the game. They already made tanks useless in pvp. They make trials require only one tank if that. They are boosting light and medium armor taking away the very little edge heavy armor had. The heavy armor passives suck the light and medium armor passives are very good. They nerfed blocking into the ground. They removed the caps on everything but defense. They leave 1hand and shield skills to be very crappy. They give heavy armor dropped sets horrible useless traits. They are by far the least played role in the game.
When the major update comes along we find instead of buffing tanks like is needed they give them a MAJOR nerf.
Face it they dont care about tanks they want them gone. None of the devs play a tank as a main. If they did they would have givin tanks a role in pvp. Instead they are making them even worse in pvp.2 -
Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭I only wear full 7 heavy armor and I find it to be just fine, for me anyway. I think the passives are great, especially in conjunction with the 1H + Shield passives, DK passives, and various Champion Point passives. I can heal myself for an insane amount using heavy armor, certain sets, certain DK skills and passives, and specific Champion Point passives.0 -
Draehl✭✭✭just figured I would post my support for buffing heavy armor.
my personal idea was to remove the block cost reduction for wearing 5 pieces and add flat damage reduction (like the nord passive) for wearing 5 pieces, something like 10% at rank 1, and 20% at rank 2.
this does pull power away from blocking, but that does seem to be what ZoS wants to do.
I like this- but would actually prefer to see this instead of the armor passive. Heavy Armor already gives more armor- why not have it be 3% per piece? Currently it's very discouraging to add 1-2 pieces of heavy armor especially in PvP due to armor piercing attacks. This would at least let players pick up a little bit of mitigation even if their armor goes to zero. Full armor builds would get 21% mitigation on top of their armor, which would be rather sexy enough in addition to block cost reduction.Main: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I would go 5 heavy if they ever fix penetration so that most of my armor isn't being ignored. They should have done that before doing the global damage nerf.
While I am completely okay with the 50% damage reduction, I would be completely satisfied if they fix penetration or at least do something lazy like cap penetration at something reasonable and then reduce that 50% reduction to 40%.Edited by timidobserver on August 8, 2015 12:50AMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
saintmurray✭✭✭Just read that light armour got a massive buff of armour rating in this patch. There is no point have heavy armour at all anymore.Saintmurray-V14-Bamplar-EP Former Emp Haderus
Hans Incognito-V1 DK-EP
#Betatester
#Ipaidbeforeitwascool1 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭As much as id like to say that op is wrong... hes got pretty valid points right now...0 -
+1 for buffing Heavy Armor hard. I've tried a lot of stuff to prove its usefulness in PVP but it just makes you feel cool that you look armory while you're doing less damage.Edgar Baerland V16 DC Templar NA0 -
SkylarkAU✭✭✭✭Apprentice stone no longer gives spell pen and they are fixing the bug around mace/sharpened weapon pen.. maybe wait and see how it pans out before ya'll go and burn down the barn.Skylärk // v16 Stamina DK (AvA 23)
Elizabeth Skylark // v16 Magicka Sorc (AvA 29)
Tauriel Skylark // v16 Stamina NB (AvA 12)
Alexander Skylark // v2 Magicka Templar
Terra Australis XI // v2 Magicka DK
Nocturnal | RÀGE
<< PC/NA/AD >>
Youtube0 -
Zsymon✭✭✭✭just figured I would post my support for buffing heavy armor.
my personal idea was to remove the block cost reduction for wearing 5 pieces and add flat damage reduction (like the nord passive) for wearing 5 pieces, something like 10% at rank 1, and 20% at rank 2.
this does pull power away from blocking, but that does seem to be what ZoS wants to do.
This seems like a very good idea.0 -
Zsymon✭✭✭✭houimetub17_ESO wrote: »Apprentice stone no longer gives spell pen and they are fixing the bug around mace/sharpened weapon pen.. maybe wait and see how it pans out before ya'll go and burn down the barn.
Slightly reduced pen values won't change anything, and they certainly don't improve the bad passives. Anyone's max armor pen should be around 7-8K at most, for heavy armor to be of any use, since you can only get some 18K armor rating from wearing it, and those 7-8K should be hard to get.
Half of your armor going to waste would already be bad enough, but right now all of it goes to waste, even if heavy armor gave 10K more armor rating it would still all go to waste with these massive pen values.Edited by Zsymon on August 8, 2015 5:11AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭2) Greatly improve the heavy armor passives, so it becomes worth placing skill points there.
As long as bracing doesn't get "improved," then changing the heavy armor passives is fine by me. The bracing passive, as you point out, is important in pve. I would say it is important enough to be considered a foundation stone toward how tanking works and how builds are made.
The damage mitigation itself isn't even that great for heavy armor and only really matters, in my opinion, against enemies that are going to deal 100,000 damage hits.Edited by Personofsecrets on August 8, 2015 6:39AMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Really, juggernaut is fine. Rapid mending is fine and makes sense. The resolve and constitution values are really small, even with 7/7 heavy, but at least with how blocking works, constitution somewhat helps against the stamina regeneration nerf.
Honestly, what do we expect? Heavy armor is for tanking and all of the passives do help with that and each in a unique way.
I suppose, even though I just wrote that I wouldn't have a problem with changes to the non-bracing passives, that I don't particularly care if those passives do get changed. The only thing I could really ask for is that the values get increased, but I wouldn't want to run the risk that something is changed for the worse.Edited by Personofsecrets on August 8, 2015 8:01AMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.1 -
mrskinskull✭✭✭✭
I agree with you that heavy armor needs changing for the better, but you going around screaming that heavy armor sucks isn't helping anybody either.You can still perma block in 1.7. There are already people that have figured out how to do so on the PTS.
That changes nothing about the fact that heavy armor offers no mitigation and apart from one, no useful passives.
Having one single build with perma block doesn't mean heavy armor doesn't need changing.
And heavy still provides migation, and not just through blocking. No useful passives? That's probably debatable for a lot of players.
I like the way it looks which also sucks because it is complete garbage from the sound of it.0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭Give HA a passiv with rank 1 5% and rank 2 10% (maybe 7,5/15%) total dmg migation. This passive would make HA more unique. Also give him more sustain on all 3 ressources while in combat with dmg done or dmg taken procs. HA player in PvP should be designd for dealing less dmg, but being annoying. His job for example is stick to healers and cc them to death.Edited by ChefZero on August 8, 2015 2:39PMPC EU - DC only1 -
Teiji✭✭✭✭✭So many good and important to mention -- different suggestions.
No /lurk though, heavy armor is not on the priority of receiving changes.
Health regen is a terrible stat - but what else could go there instead? Flat damage reduction per piece of heavy armor? 0.5% for first point, 1% per piece for second point?
Juggernaut increases armor penetration? Flat damage reduction? It used to increase physical damage by a small amount but yeah.
Increase bash damage should go in there somewhere, maybe reduce bash cost instead I don't know.
I don't care what they do to heavy armor, I just want something done with it to prove ZoS acknowledges it exists.Edited by Teiji on August 8, 2015 2:51PM"Serving Boethiah is Freedom, embracing heroism is Liberty, existing solely for noxiphilic sanguivoria is truth." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
European megaserver Fallout 4
Loyalist of Boethiah, heroism enthusiast, exposer of secrets, bless'ed of noxiphilic sanguivoria.
Nerf one grind, two more take its place; hail Gryndra!
I am a dank memer and satire enthusiast0 -
Draehl✭✭✭I also mentioned above, but why not increased heavy attack damage and resource return? It could play into the brawler thematic so if a tank wants to throw on a 2hander or staff or what have you they can put out stronger heavy attacks and help with resource management when they do.Main: Breton Nightblade "Shadow Cleric" (Sustained Damage/offhealer) 5L/2H - Resto + S&B
Alt: Argonian Dragonknight (Stam DoTs/Tank) 5H/2M - S&B + Bow
Alt: Nord Templar Berserker (Rawr) 5M/2H - Dual Wield + Two Hander
Alt: Altmer Sorceror (Pewpew) 7L - Destro + Resto1 -
Anazasi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think we are on the right track. Many players are concerned with issues such as weapon or spell damage at this point. The nerf to nirn made a difference but penetration both spell and armor come at a price. That is the real issue here penetration the price for maxing it is not high enough. Remember this game is more about the meta which for many meta = skill.
Since the PTS was launch I have seen all armor stats increase across the board which I think was a good move. Also if you look at some of the more subtle changes you will find a slight shift in the meta towards crit builds. Is this the intended direction? a move away from raw damage numbers and back towards crit builds? Of course only time will tell and the changes while some appear pretty harsh like the nerf to stam regen while blocking is a major grief, the attempt to bring balance back into the game is happening.
Lets all face the facts, if you want to be OP the race has been since 1.6 stack raw damage anyway you can get. Is that still the meta of the game?0 -
Solanum✭✭✭The reason heavy armor still sucks terribly:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/148766/heavy-armor-is-so-op-in-1-6/p1
Many people start to shout in blind panic when any form of balance is applied.
"In all honesty, plate still has crap resource management.
With the softcaps removed, our lack of resource cost reduction will make a severe difference, as well as the vastly improved regeneration other armors will have.
We get a tiny amount of both magicka and stamina once every four seconds. Whoop whoop. We get nothing that benefits our damage. Our reduced cost for breaking free has been removed from our passives, our damage increase has been removed from our passives.
We have a whopping 7% health increase and healing taken increase. Aside from that all we have is our armor and magic resist. (which in PVP can quite easily be lowered)
Plate is probably still laughable, just like the cloth/staff people panicking that their armor is no longer better at -everything- "3 -
actosh✭✭✭✭✭Well, i thought it may become usefull once zenimax is fixing armor/spellpen bugs, but now that hey have raised the light armor values, heavy still looks like crap.0
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I gave up on HA in this game its useless in terms of PVP, nothing to gain by using HA, its purly a PVE thing IMO and even that is questionable.
HA needs to support just that, if I was to wear a full set of HA plate gear I would take less damage and in turn become less winded when taking hits so by my logic HA needs to be the armor that does not suffer from the stamina regen nerf as you are not winded by taking hits.
Also HA should take far less damage from armor pen due to logical reasons and less damage from critical hits, it only makes sense.
When you wear a full set of HA in real life the only weak spots by melee attacks are in the neck, underarm & joints etc. so by that logic armor pen should have a 25% chance to take effect on a player wearing a full 7 set of HA.
Also blocking a light attack wearing HA while using a shield should reduce attack damage by 100%, that only makes sense, but not heavy attacks as it makes sense that the damage from that attack would be from blunt force trauma, block reverb or impact.
However the cost of roll & sprint while wearing a full set of HA should be increased by 100% for logical reasons.
Edited by t.claudio.usnub18_ESO on August 10, 2015 6:59AM1
