Time To Kill - What really was the problem?

Mystikkal · August 2015

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

Xael · August 2015

No.
Radiant Magelight already stops all of what you mentioned.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2015

The problem was gankers able to one shot kill players even with 24K+ armor and spell res and 10K+ crit res while holding block and if they didn't one shot you they just stun you with frags, crit charge, or shield charge one of those skills that just spam what ever OP skill that had be Wrecking Blow, Bolt Escape, Flame lash, Radient Destruction, and so on melting you in less than 3 second an only those who are really good at PvP would have been able to counter act but thing is not every singe player are ganking divines that can counter act stealth and spam gankers.

And bursting someone maybe fun to you but not fun tot he low levels or new players to PvP who are trying to find reasons to PvP. Cause I'm sure no one wants to PvP if it means always getting ganked out side a keep or having to change your entire play style just to get from one keep to another.

Xael · August 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The problem was gankers able to one shot kill players even with 24K+ armor and spell res and 10K+ crit res while holding block and if they didn't one shot you they just stun you with frags, crit charge, or shield charge one of those skills that just spam what ever OP skill that had be Wrecking Blow, Bolt Escape, Flame lash, Radient Destruction, and so on melting you in less than 3 second an only those who are really good at PvP would have been able to counter act but thing is not every singe player are ganking divines that can counter act stealth and spam gankers.

And bursting someone maybe fun to you but not fun tot he low levels or new players to PvP who are trying to find reasons to PvP. Cause I'm sure no one wants to PvP if it means always getting ganked out side a keep or having to change your entire play style just to get from one keep to another.

Gankers are not killing people 24k+ armor and spell res with 10k crit res while holding block.
I don't know any Sorc in the game right now that hits harder than I do with frags and I can assure you my frags don't do 18k to nirned out players or anyone using mitigation. Not to mention no one is spamming Bolt Escape and killing with it, or Flame Lash, or Radiant Destruction. The RD statement is laughable considering it does little damage at all to anyone not almost dead.

Either your English is really bad or you are just... well, I don't want to insult you. You don't know what you are talking about. I would say take a deep breath, try reading some tool tips, maybe radiant magelight for starters and there goes your 1 shot from stealth and everything the OP mentioned.

Judging by your second paragraph it's clear you don't understand PvP nor is it for you. Sorry. I can't advocate ZOS to make changes for people because they "don't like getting ganked."

Ludof · August 2015

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

You can say that overall damage on live Server is high:that's why they're going to reduce damage by 50%.
However you can't just "Remove the ability to crit from stealth" , otherwise you are going to ruin
NB playstyle.
(I usually play Templar and DK)

ToRelax · August 2015

There were several things that contributed in one way or the other.
One being the removal of softcaps, allowing much higher base and damage stats, another the lowered health pools.
But it's also interwoven with the "unlimited resources" phenomenon, wich in no way has been solved.
Instead, both got hit by band aid fixes creating even worse problems...

Kloud · August 2015

I hate the 30% reduction ideal as a whole they should of just buffed hp to where 30k was the norm or adjust hard hitting skills individually

Trayyacakes · August 2015

Kloud wrote: »

I hate the 30% reduction ideal as a whole they should of just buffed hp to where 30k was the norm or adjust hard hitting skills individually

Should have been a bit of both really, as well as fix armor penetration values. The blanket damage reduction nerf is silly but /shrug what can you do.

Draehl · August 2015

Because not every likes burst damage. The live environment encourages very few actual build options:

1) Pure Glass cannon
2) Pure Tank (to survive said burst)
3) Healer, in large groups only.
4) Sorcs, which due to shield mechanics are able to have a strong offense AND defense.

Players such as myself that like to play balanced builds, utility based builds, or attrition/regen based sustained damage builds are essentially left out in the cold. To be fair, half of the problem is base regen rates being too high for burst builds. This really isn't fixed in 2.1, but at least half the problem of burst is gone. Now we can wait for Zeni to nerf based regen rates so players actually have to choose between throughput or sustain...

ToRelax · August 2015

Draehl wrote: »

Because not every likes burst damage. The live environment encourages very few actual build options:

1) Pure Glass cannon
2) Pure Tank (to survive said burst)
3) Healer, in large groups only.
4) Sorcs, which due to shield mechanics are able to have a strong offense AND defense.

Players such as myself that like to play balanced builds, utility based builds, or attrition/regen based sustained damage builds are essentially left out in the cold. To be fair, half of the problem is base regen rates being too high for burst builds. This really isn't fixed in 2.1, but at least half the problem of burst is gone. Now we can wait for Zeni to nerf based regen rates so players actually have to choose between throughput or sustain...

On live burst damage is only so popular because it allows to "circumvent" the unlimited resources in many cases.
Just making it harder to burst people down doesn't mean they die to any other approach.

Draehl · August 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

Because not every likes burst damage. The live environment encourages very few actual build options:

1) Pure Glass cannon
2) Pure Tank (to survive said burst)
3) Healer, in large groups only.
4) Sorcs, which due to shield mechanics are able to have a strong offense AND defense.

Players such as myself that like to play balanced builds, utility based builds, or attrition/regen based sustained damage builds are essentially left out in the cold. To be fair, half of the problem is base regen rates being too high for burst builds. This really isn't fixed in 2.1, but at least half the problem of burst is gone. Now we can wait for Zeni to nerf based regen rates so players actually have to choose between throughput or sustain...

On live burst damage is only so popular because it allows to "circumvent" the unlimited resources in many cases.
Just making it harder to burst people down doesn't mean they die to any other approach.

Correct, which I also addressed in that post =D

Mystikkal · August 2015

Ludof wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

You can say that overall damage on live Server is high:that's why they're going to reduce damage by 50%.
However you can't just "Remove the ability to crit from stealth" , otherwise you are going to ruin
NB playstyle.
(I usually play Templar and DK)

Well 50% is too much. I agree damage is a little high, but not completely out of control.

And IMO, stealth is way overpowered. Stealth provides you the initiative and extra damage. I like stealth as a tactic, but it provides too much of an advantage. I play with a lot of top PvPers and we agree that the extra damage out of stealth is silly. It would not ruin NBs - they are powerful as is and will continue to be powerful in the next patch. If this change would hurt NB too much, then adjust NB base damage accordingly.

Mystikkal · August 2015

Draehl wrote: »

Because not every likes burst damage. The live environment encourages very few actual build options:

1) Pure Glass cannon
2) Pure Tank (to survive said burst)
3) Healer, in large groups only.
4) Sorcs, which due to shield mechanics are able to have a strong offense AND defense.

Players such as myself that like to play balanced builds, utility based builds, or attrition/regen based sustained damage builds are essentially left out in the cold. To be fair, half of the problem is base regen rates being too high for burst builds. This really isn't fixed in 2.1, but at least half the problem of burst is gone. Now we can wait for Zeni to nerf based regen rates so players actually have to choose between throughput or sustain...

Good points and I agree to an extent - burst should not be the only way to go if you want to kill. But when I'm thinking of burst, it's also group burst. Good teams will focus a target and burst it as a team. That to me should always be a good strategy. (Although players should have tools to also deter groups from over-focusing them (i.e. it's not worth it to keep attacking someone).

Fully agree that regen rates are a huge problems. But it's not about just nerfing regen rates - honestly softcaps should never have gone away. There are ways to fix regen beyond softcaps, but softcaps isn't a bad solution. I like the concept of increasing cost for spamming an ability - but honestly. the defensive skills/abilities just need to be balanced. right now.. cloak, rolldodge, block and mist form are far and away better than any class/weapon based defensive skill (minus shields). If putting up say razor armor, evasion actually did something

, that would be nice.. but the defense provided is small compared to dodge, block, etc.

TBois · August 2015

Whatever patch it was where they changed the stats by increasing them by 10x, but they only increased HP by 5x or something. They should have just kept the scaling of stats consistent. We would be in a better place now if they would have kept HP up.

Xael · August 2015

Mystikkal wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

You can say that overall damage on live Server is high:that's why they're going to reduce damage by 50%.
However you can't just "Remove the ability to crit from stealth" , otherwise you are going to ruin
NB playstyle.
(I usually play Templar and DK)

Well 50% is too much. I agree damage is a little high, but not completely out of control.

And IMO, stealth is way overpowered. Stealth provides you the initiative and extra damage. I like stealth as a tactic, but it provides too much of an advantage. I play with a lot of top PvPers and we agree that the extra damage out of stealth is silly. It would not ruin NBs - they are powerful as is and will continue to be powerful in the next patch. If this change would hurt NB too much, then adjust NB base damage accordingly.

This post is total bullsh^t.
What top pvpers do you play with? And which top PvPers agree with you? I find this claim to be total bs.
I find it strange you and your top pvpers don't know about Radiant Magelight.
Whining about Stealth damage is hilarious when there is 1 skill that completely shuts it down for you and your group.
Mentioning NB only confirms this ignorance as they are not the only class that can do damage from stealth, let alone an empowered/minor berserk/major savagery sneak attack. I can do more damage from stealth with a dragon knight than any NB currently in game. Yet if my target is using Radiant Magelight or anyone near him is, it's moot.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Hears_Bright_Colors · August 2015

The servers and combat system in ESO are not smooth/responsive on a consistent enough basis at this time to handle 1-3 shot kills. I have no problem having only a second to react or die but I need everything to work smoothly, consistently and as intended every time. Slower combat allows for less than optimal game/server performance.

danno8 · August 2015

sixuponthelot wrote: »

Whatever patch it was where they changed the stats by increasing them by 10x, but they only increased HP by 5x or something. They should have just kept the scaling of stats consistent. We would be in a better place now if they would have kept HP up.

Yah dropping health down definitely exacerbated the 1 second kills. Not sure why they did that. What metric did they have where 1.5x -> 1.1x health was required to prevent poor gameplay?

I also still think they should have just raised the soft caps up 50% or so, and/or made a smoother diminishing line. But I guess that's all history now.

Mystikkal · August 2015

Xael wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

You can say that overall damage on live Server is high:that's why they're going to reduce damage by 50%.
However you can't just "Remove the ability to crit from stealth" , otherwise you are going to ruin
NB playstyle.
(I usually play Templar and DK)

Well 50% is too much. I agree damage is a little high, but not completely out of control.

And IMO, stealth is way overpowered. Stealth provides you the initiative and extra damage. I like stealth as a tactic, but it provides too much of an advantage. I play with a lot of top PvPers and we agree that the extra damage out of stealth is silly. It would not ruin NBs - they are powerful as is and will continue to be powerful in the next patch. If this change would hurt NB too much, then adjust NB base damage accordingly.

This post is total bullsh^t.
What top pvpers do you play with? And which top PvPers agree with you? I find this claim to be total bs.
I find it strange you and your top pvpers don't know about Radiant Magelight.
Whining about Stealth damage is hilarious when there is 1 skill that completely shuts it down for you and your group.
Mentioning NB only confirms this ignorance as they are not the only class that can do damage from stealth, let alone an empowered/minor berserk/major savagery sneak attack. I can do more damage from stealth with a dragon knight than any NB currently in game. Yet if my target is using Radiant Magelight or anyone near him is, it's moot.

Learn how the game works before you ask for a nerf. I have no idea wtf you people come from, it's like a cockroach infestation or a kicked over anthill.

Please message me in game tonight @Mystikkal so that we can setup a match. What numbers do you prefer? 4v4, 5v5,6v6, 7v7, 8v8? You name it. I hope you are not DC so we can make this happen - talk to you tonight. What is your @ name?

Put your money where your mouth is sir.

P.s. Let's also be clear here - I am fully aware of the counters to stealth in this game, including radiant magelight. That doesn't mean I agree with the mechanics. The radius on that skill is not that great (to help teammates) and the skill isn't viable on a lot of bars (including all stam bars). Sure the zergs you may run with have that, along with 8 barriers - congrats. See you tonight bud.

~Myst

TBois · August 2015

Everyone put your epeens back in your pants and lets talk about TTK.

#1.6HPScalingFail

Solanum · August 2015

In my opinion health is simply not appealing enough to invest in at the moment.

Stamina and Magicka both offer better defensive options, while also bringing damage to the table.

Xael · August 2015

Mystikkal wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Ludof wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

You can say that overall damage on live Server is high:that's why they're going to reduce damage by 50%.
However you can't just "Remove the ability to crit from stealth" , otherwise you are going to ruin
NB playstyle.
(I usually play Templar and DK)

Well 50% is too much. I agree damage is a little high, but not completely out of control.

And IMO, stealth is way overpowered. Stealth provides you the initiative and extra damage. I like stealth as a tactic, but it provides too much of an advantage. I play with a lot of top PvPers and we agree that the extra damage out of stealth is silly. It would not ruin NBs - they are powerful as is and will continue to be powerful in the next patch. If this change would hurt NB too much, then adjust NB base damage accordingly.

This post is total bullsh^t.
What top pvpers do you play with? And which top PvPers agree with you? I find this claim to be total bs.
I find it strange you and your top pvpers don't know about Radiant Magelight.
Whining about Stealth damage is hilarious when there is 1 skill that completely shuts it down for you and your group.
Mentioning NB only confirms this ignorance as they are not the only class that can do damage from stealth, let alone an empowered/minor berserk/major savagery sneak attack. I can do more damage from stealth with a dragon knight than any NB currently in game. Yet if my target is using Radiant Magelight or anyone near him is, it's moot.

Learn how the game works before you ask for a nerf. I have no idea wtf you people come from, it's like a cockroach infestation or a kicked over anthill.

Please message me in game tonight @Mystikkal so that we can setup a match. What numbers do you prefer? 4v4, 5v5,6v6, 7v7, 8v8? You name it. I hope you are not DC so we can make this happen - talk to you tonight. What is your @ name?

Put your money where your mouth is sir.

P.s. Let's also be clear here - I am fully aware of the counters to stealth in this game, including radiant magelight. That doesn't mean I agree with the mechanics. The radius on that skill is not that great (to help teammates) and the skill isn't viable on a lot of bars (including all stam bars). Sure the zergs you may run with have that, along with 8 barriers - congrats. See you tonight bud.

~Myst

You say:

Mystikkal wrote: »

Let's also be clear here - I am fully aware of the counters to stealth in this game, including radiant magelight

but yet in your opening post you say:

Mystikkal wrote: »

The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount...

You could not be more contradictory. Considering RML counters this very thing your statement is antithetical.

Saying

"Mystikkal wrote:

the skill isn't viable on a lot of bars (including all stam bars)

is another false and misleading statement. Most gankers that are known throughout Cyrodiil as Apex Predators ALL use RML. Not only is it viable, it is mandatory for maximum damage potential. For not only do they use this for MotG, they also use it to hunt.

I don't run with zergs and it completely negates a sneak attack by 50% damage and removes the stun (which allows you to heal up or disengage). Considering a sneak attack only happens once in a fight, I find this laughable unless you are getting Xv1 sneak attacked, in which case sneak isnt the problem, the *** is.

You tell me to put my money where my mouth is... I asked you who your top PvPers are. I know a lot of the top pvpers of DC. Which ones are you speaking for? None of those I know would agree with you or this thread. Please cut with the transparency rhetoric. You attempting to call me out while hiding behind nebulous hyperbole is flagrantly pretentious.

Joy_Division · August 2015

Xael wrote: »

This post is total bullsh^t.
... Pointing such things out is neither breach in conduct or aggressive. It's simply a matter of pointing out the obvious.

Zeminax code of Conduct:

"2.4 You will not attempt to mask, use misspellings, phonetic spellings, homonyms, word combinations, or alternative spellings of inappropriate material in any communication on ZeniMax Services. This includes but is not limited to text, chat, voice, in-game messaging or any other medium of communication or interaction between players."

tist · August 2015

Couldn't stealth damage bonus just get nerfed, more hp?.. Instead we have players swacking at each other for 10 minutes until one gives up.

Mystikkal · August 2015

So I just want to be clear - you decline to fight us tonight? You will find out who we are when you fight us.

Mystikkal · August 2015

tist wrote: »

Couldn't stealth damage bonus just get nerfed, more hp?.. Instead we have players swacking at each other for 10 minutes until one gives up.

Exactly. The majority of the issue were the 1-2 shots out of stealth. While TTK needs to be slightly lower; reducing dmg across the board is like using a lethal weapon to fight off a teenager.

Ishammael · August 2015

Stealth attacks should not get bonus damage. The ability to be INVISIBLE, choice of engagement, and alpha strike are advantage enough.

ZOS_Tarina · August 2015

We performed a clean-up in this thread that resulted in the removal of some posts that were in reply to a comment that was in violation of our Community Rules. Please remember to keep your comments respectful and constructive, and refrain from insults and rude remarks directed at other community members. Thank you.

Mystikkal · August 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Stealth attacks should not get bonus damage. The ability to be INVISIBLE, choice of engagement, and alpha strike are advantage enough.

How can you disagree with this statement? The advantage that stealth gives in this game is wayyyy over the top

Kloud · August 2015

I like the game how it is but I'm sure I'll like ic too

Ace_SiN · August 2015

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

Stealth was a factor, but it wasn't the factor. Damage was too high in general and our health pools were too little. ZOS could have just increased our base health so we were no longer in 1 shot range, but instead they chose to flat out nerf everything across the board, which only lead to more issues.

Mystikkal · August 2015

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Mystikkal wrote: »

Yes TTK is a little high on live, but it's really not overly high. The real problem was not the amount of damage people did - it was the amount of damage people did from stealth. Remove the ability to crit from stealth, make it so you can breakfree when knocked off your mount and only reduce overall damage slightly. The ability to burst someone is critical to PvP.

Stealth was a factor, but it wasn't the factor. Damage was too high in general and our health pools were too little. ZOS could have just increased our base health so we were no longer in 1 shot range, but instead they chose to flat out nerf everything across the board, which only lead to more issues.

Agree Ace. Would still like to see the critical removed from stealth attacks and given back the ability to break free when knocked off a mount.