Disruptive items/fail concept: Remove bow from the game

Deathztalker · August 2015

The game has been out for over a year now and the bow as weapons still does work, players new to PVE & PVP raid and end game content get upset when there told that raid groups don’t want the if they plan to use a bow as their main source of DPS. Looking at this newest patch I don’t see any of the bow related problem being address rather than leaving disruptive items in the game does it not make more scene just to remove them?

- Most of the bow ability have been broken for over 6 months now so that they don’t generate soul gems.
- The passive ability Long Shots doesn’t work trials and where all the DPS need to stack on the boss.
- The passive ability Hasty Retreat is now worthless with the changes to doge rolling
- Bow specific armor sets handicap the second weapon being used and penalize players for using them.

I could go on but I think I’ve made my point rather than making raid leads the bad guys for disruptive items in the game when we tell people sorry your DPS does cut with the bow just remove bow from the game and you won’t have to cry about the time need to fix the problem.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · August 2015

They've made decent progress toward making PvE bow more viable, but it absolutely still needs some reworking. 2h and DW both have options to get their Major Brutality buff, so main bow users must either chug pots like a maniac or use one of the other weapon types on their off bar and lose precious DPS time weapon swapping to cast a buff to do more dps. That and you can't really weave anything into the Snipe animation without hurting your dps a bit, at least that's what I've found, but maybe it's just me. Stopping sniping to apply some kind of dot and then sniping again, given the cast time and lower damage, kills me in comparison to weaving something between wrecking blows.

Yeah Long Shot is kinda useless in PvE too, because you can never stay far enough away to keep that damage bonus up. Best DPS I've gotten from a Bow setup was 11k on my DK, and that was difficult to obtain, where as with 2h or DW I could mindlessly get those numbers or better.

And not having something equivalent to the Ravager set for ranged DPS is rough too. With Ravager and stuff you can get close to 4k weapon damage. I can stack weapon damage up to like 3k tops with a bow, and that takes a bit of maintenance.

Would love to see some Bow love soon.

HeroOfNone · August 2015

The bow has a variety of issues, one of the most glaring to me is the poison damage doesn't really synergize with any other abilities or sets that well. The Ophidia bow set is under powered to crafted gear, despite it being a trial drop, and Morag Tong will prevent you from having a helm if you use the bow. Couple with that how few classes have any ranged abilities that seem to scale off weapon damage, you're kind of stuck here. I have not had a chance to get the new armor sets to try those out with this.

In addition to this, most of the bow abilities are less damage oriented, most are control and weak dots. Once your done laying down dots your either left spam canceling snipe (less effective in lethal arrow form unless the boss heals) and much less effective than melee or impulse. If there was something more spamable for the bow or better to weave in for straight damage, maybe this wouldn't be so bad.

I don't want it doing ungodly amounts in snipe and being a problem in PVP again, just want it to stop feeling like a waste to use compared to a destro staff.

OGLezard · August 2015

@HeroOfNone All I heard was nerf sorcs! :P seriously though, in pvp bows are amazing. In PvE, I hardly ever see someone using one

HeroOfNone · August 2015

OGLezard wrote: »

@HeroOfNone All I heard was nerf sorcs! :P seriously though, in pvp bows are amazing. In PvE, I hardly ever see someone using one

In pvp I think bows are alright, but destruction and heal staffs have better utility.

With a destruction staff you can knock back someone from a long distance, shock multiple, freeze snd slow folks down. You can also interupt from a long distance with three different elemental effects. You have a debuff that can help you get resources back. And you hae an aoe pulsar/elemental ring that can lower max health or put dots on with a fair amount of damage. There is also a weak ground aoe elemental blockade that is good for making BBQ pits and or skating rinks.

Look at the bow, youhave an interupt attached to a DOT and you'll lose DPS if you keep using it. You can use snipe and it's morphes to damage burst real fast, with morphes to increase range and damage or reduce healing.there is the sprays, but that only serves to root enemies that probably have gap closers. You have a close range knock back wit Magnum shot. And you have a pretty blah ground AOE with bombard that takes time to cast.

There are a few good things in bow, but a lot of it I've barely ever seen used.

OGLezard · August 2015

HeroOfNone wrote: »

OGLezard wrote: »

@HeroOfNone All I heard was nerf sorcs! :P seriously though, in pvp bows are amazing. In PvE, I hardly ever see someone using one

In pvp I think bows are alright, but destruction and heal staffs have better utility.

With a destruction staff you can knock back someone from a long distance, shock multiple, freeze snd slow folks down. You can also interupt from a long distance with three different elemental effects. You have a debuff that can help you get resources back. And you hae an aoe pulsar/elemental ring that can lower max health or put dots on with a fair amount of damage. There is also a weak ground aoe elemental blockade that is good for making BBQ pits and or skating rinks.

Look at the bow, youhave an interupt attached to a DOT and you'll lose DPS if you keep using it. You can use snipe and it's morphes to damage burst real fast, with morphes to increase range and damage or reduce healing.there is the sprays, but that only serves to root enemies that probably have gap closers. You have a close range knock back wit Magnum shot. And you have a pretty blah ground AOE with bombard that takes time to cast.

There are a few good things in bow, but a lot of it I've barely ever seen used.

well that's because everyone gravitates towards what the best bang for the buck is and everything else is getting swept under the rug by everyone. Wall of Elements (elemental blockade) is just soooooooooooooooo hilarious for damage in 1.7 (2.1) that they might as well remove it and make a better skill.

Deathztalker · August 2015

Ether remove it or fix but don't leave it the game as it is, right now it's just wasting peoples time and causing hurt feelings.

Tannus15 · August 2015

Bow DPS should never really be on par with melee DPS because you're MUCH safer in PvE at range.

Easy example, Vet Darkshade, last boss. Sure, bow has lower DPS but Bow can dps through all 3 forms. Melee can't.

I agree that Bow needs some work, but comparing raw numbers is a fallacy.

I think the biggest issues with it you've already touched on:

Poor synergy with melee weapons since melee mostly works on weapon damage, while bow seems to go after high crit chace
Even worse synergy with class abilities since most ranged class abilities cost magika when you're after a stamina build
Lack of decent skill rotation. Bow lacks a simple 'plink' skill you can hit between refreshing dots. Normally you could put a class skill in here, but that's already covered above.

My gut feeling is that to fix bow Scatter Shot + morphs need to be reworked. In particular Magnum Shot. I don't want to knock myself back constantly when I'm trying to burn down a boss, in trials that just killed you. My suggestion is to change the self knock back into an execute and suddenly Bow is viable.

It's clear that ZOS are aware that there is a problem with bow in PvE, hence the increased duration of volley, but really that's just more dots and no decent execute, and no stmaina dump.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO · August 2015

Tannus15 wrote: »

Bow DPS should never really be on par with melee DPS because you're MUCH safer in PvE at range.

Easy example, Vet Darkshade, last boss. Sure, bow has lower DPS but Bow can dps through all 3 forms. Melee can't.

I agree that Bow needs some work, but comparing raw numbers is a fallacy.

I think the biggest issues with it you've already touched on:
Poor synergy with melee weapons since melee mostly works on weapon damage, while bow seems to go after high crit chace

Even worse synergy with class abilities since most ranged class abilities cost magika when you're after a stamina build

Lack of decent skill rotation. Bow lacks a simple 'plink' skill you can hit between refreshing dots. Normally you could put a class skill in here, but that's already covered above.

My gut feeling is that to fix bow Scatter Shot + morphs need to be reworked. In particular Magnum Shot. I don't want to knock myself back constantly when I'm trying to burn down a boss, in trials that just killed you. My suggestion is to change the self knock back into an execute and suddenly Bow is viable.

It's clear that ZOS are aware that there is a problem with bow in PvE, hence the increased duration of volley, but really that's just more dots and no decent execute, and no stmaina dump.

To your point about melee vs range disparity, I disagree. They should be on equal footing. The inherent difficulty of dodging mechanics that require you to be in melee range should drop your dps, and there should be very few dps drops in ranged dps, and in the end, both should be about equal. Melee will be higher in low risk environments, which is fine, but in the end-game content, they should fall in line.

R0M2K · August 2015

Plus they are nerfing "Hasty Retreat" pasive to a major buff so it cant be stacked... Probably because some one found it to be OP lol.

asteldian · August 2015

Whatever people's views on range vs melee dps, they can be left to one side atm - the issue is that bow just does not compare to its magicka alternatives. A bow should be able to compete with staff users if it is ever to be an option as a primary weapon in pve.

Maulkin · August 2015

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Bow DPS should never really be on par with melee DPS because you're MUCH safer in PvE at range.

Easy example, Vet Darkshade, last boss. Sure, bow has lower DPS but Bow can dps through all 3 forms. Melee can't.

I agree that Bow needs some work, but comparing raw numbers is a fallacy.

I think the biggest issues with it you've already touched on:
Poor synergy with melee weapons since melee mostly works on weapon damage, while bow seems to go after high crit chace

Even worse synergy with class abilities since most ranged class abilities cost magika when you're after a stamina build

Lack of decent skill rotation. Bow lacks a simple 'plink' skill you can hit between refreshing dots. Normally you could put a class skill in here, but that's already covered above.

My gut feeling is that to fix bow Scatter Shot + morphs need to be reworked. In particular Magnum Shot. I don't want to knock myself back constantly when I'm trying to burn down a boss, in trials that just killed you. My suggestion is to change the self knock back into an execute and suddenly Bow is viable.

It's clear that ZOS are aware that there is a problem with bow in PvE, hence the increased duration of volley, but really that's just more dots and no decent execute, and no stmaina dump.

To your point about melee vs range disparity, I disagree. They should be on equal footing. The inherent difficulty of dodging mechanics that require you to be in melee range should drop your dps, and there should be very few dps drops in ranged dps, and in the end, both should be about equal. Melee will be higher in low risk environments, which is fine, but in the end-game content, they should fall in line.

First off, it depends how you measure your DPS. Usually DPS readings are taken in uninterrupted rotations.

In uninterrupted rotations melee should absolutely have higher DPS and in a fight where dodging / blocking etc are necessary , bow should not be far off. If it's not, bow needs some buffs. But melee should still be marginally higher.

The reason melee should still be higher even in bosses with imperfect rotation is because melee weapons carry a higher death risk. Death incurs a time penalty in trials and DSA runs.

So once the risk/reward is factored in, then an average group should score aprroximately same score whether it uses melee or ranged DPSers.

That would be balance. Because if archer DPSers could have the same DPS as melee DPSers in boss fights but with less risk, then they become the de facto choice.

It's a hard balance to get arguably and it sounds like bows need some buffs, but it's important to have a realistic approach to what a balanced situation is.

Maulkin · August 2015

R0M2K wrote: »

Plus they are nerfing "Hasty Retreat" pasive to a major buff so it cant be stacked... Probably because some one found it to be OP lol.

Mobility in general was nerfed for PvP reasons. Dodge-rolling, speed buff stacking, blinking... they all took nerfs.

They want players to stay in fights more and kite less. Whether that's the right design decision is another matter. But the nerf is inline with their whole approach to mobility at least.

Dekkameron · August 2015

Deathztalker wrote: »

players new to PVE & PVP raid and end game content get upset when there told that raid groups don’t want the if they plan to use a bow as their main source of DPS

Ether remove it or fix but don't leave it the game as it is, right now it's just wasting peoples time and causing hurt feelings.

LOL?

I would love to hear someone saying in a raid (and probably typing like this)
"k gaiz i c sum ov u r uzin bowz, plz stop as dey r bad k?"

Get a grip seriously, bows are fine in both PvP and PvE. Sure in raids they don't have that many abilities that you use often but ah well.

asteldian · August 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Deathztalker wrote: »

players new to PVE & PVP raid and end game content get upset when there told that raid groups don’t want the if they plan to use a bow as their main source of DPS

Ether remove it or fix but don't leave it the game as it is, right now it's just wasting peoples time and causing hurt feelings.

LOL?

I would love to hear someone saying in a raid (and probably typing like this)
"k gaiz i c sum ov u r uzin bowz, plz stop as dey r bad k?"

Get a grip seriously, bows are fine in both PvP and PvE. Sure in raids they don't have that many abilities that you use often but ah well.

They are not fine in pve, they underperform. Yes, they can be used, no I would not kick someone in a trial for using one. But if that player said 'everyone seems to be hitting real high dps, I am struggling to compete, what can I do?' The simple answer is lose the bow if you want to compete.

Deathztalker · August 2015

Tannus15 :"Bow DPS should never really be on par with melee DPS because you're MUCH safer in PvE at range." That is a myth, your only MUCH safer at range in PvE if ZOS builds the fights that way. If you look WOW and some of the other MMO's you'll have a better understand of what we are talking about.

Dekkameron: Why should the whole raid be held back because one person in the raid wants to uses a bow as their main source of DPS? Especially in PVE that is why raids ask for specific types of DPS, the bow users are filtered out before the fight begins.

AhPook_Is_Here · August 2015

asteldian wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Deathztalker wrote: »

players new to PVE & PVP raid and end game content get upset when there told that raid groups don’t want the if they plan to use a bow as their main source of DPS

Ether remove it or fix but don't leave it the game as it is, right now it's just wasting peoples time and causing hurt feelings.

LOL?

I would love to hear someone saying in a raid (and probably typing like this)
"k gaiz i c sum ov u r uzin bowz, plz stop as dey r bad k?"

Get a grip seriously, bows are fine in both PvP and PvE. Sure in raids they don't have that many abilities that you use often but ah well.

They are not fine in pve, they underperform. Yes, they can be used, no I would not kick someone in a trial for using one. But if that player said 'everyone seems to be hitting real high dps, I am struggling to compete, what can I do?' The simple answer is lose the bow if you want to compete.

But you can. You have enough skill points to have weapons for PVP and PVE unlocked so you can swap between the two. STA isn't a very good PVE damage choice for any class but NB, but you have other weapons you should have the skill pts to max out and you can move skills on your bar to use them. I have seen NBs use bows on some trials bosses to decent success but in the end it isn't the best choice.

As far as PVP goes, bows are fine as they are.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

Bows in pvp are fine. Never call archers sissy's they get even

Siluen · August 2015

Damagewise, bows aren't all that bad, especially not in PvP. What I dislike about the bow however, is a serious lack in diversity. I loved stamina builds, but one thing that seriously put me off was that it often felt like the most viable way to play stamina is to spam Lethal Arrow/Focused Aim until your opponent is dead (throwing in a Poison Injection if you really want to spice things up!) The closest thing the bow gets to providing utility is the Scatter Shot and the movement speed passive, that basically received a nerf now that it is no longer stackable with Major Expedition.

For all I care they could fuse Snipe and Poison Arrow into one for a single target "does X damage". Lower the Initial damage some, add the Lethal Arrow and Poison Injection together (a healing Debuff with the execute effect on the DoT component), and bunch up Focused Aim and Venom Arrow. (the effects of Focused Aim with an interrupting effect)

Another cool idea would be to bunch the effects of Arrow Spray and Scatter Shot together, so you get some kind of AoE knockback. Might be pretty cool stuff for knocking an enemy group back down a staircase with a group of archers. Would set it apart from the inferno staff a bit (which even shoots the target further than Scatter Shot does)

That would leave 2 more slots for new bow abilities. Perhaps one could provide a buff of sorts, maybe a rapid shot that increases your critchance and/or damage each time you hit the same target with it, up to a cap ofcourse.

Deathztalker · August 2015

On the PTS the people who solo and play bow only in PVP that like to snip and run are laying dead on the ground all over as they can't escape any more. For solo 1vsXX PVP you uses to want the bow for Hasty Retreat and Poison Arrow now with the changes to doge rolling you don't want the bow any more.

On the PST with the changes to damage you don't have to worry about focused aim as much in PVP as it's so slow you can easily close and kill people try to burn you down with focused aim, but yes it still hurts.

Reverb · August 2015

When I switched away from a bow on my offbar I was asked by some in my guild to go back to it, they liked having mobs pinned down by bombard, and they knew they could count on powerful snipe in the fights that are better ranged.. But I would never consider it as a primary DPS weapon, and always swap to melee (stam toons) or mana aoe.

Docmandu · August 2015

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In pvp I think bows are alright, but destruction and heal staffs have better utility.

Those are magicka, wouldn't be of much use to a stamina character, unless in BWB where everyone is effectively a hybrid.

HeroOfNone · August 2015

Docmandu wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

In pvp I think bows are alright, but destruction and heal staffs have better utility.

Those are magicka, wouldn't be of much use to a stamina character, unless in BWB where everyone is effectively a hybrid.

The point here was a magicka build can effectively damage and has an effective tool box at a distance while a bow doesn't. I'd argue they have even more long distance survivability since the don't use up stamina and can still dodge/block, the resource stamina builds use to damage.

Again, let's not nerf destroy staff, let's improve bow to give us similar results.

Deathztalker · August 2015

The bow has two AOE abilities and it needs a mid level instance damage ability the thing is ZOS is not focusing on in depth rotations right now. Seeing how much time has passed and they have yet to fix problems like the soul gems issues with bombard and such it's unlikely there going to make the bow usable anytime soon.

Ra'Shtar · August 2015

I would like for archers to be more than a pvp build.

Dymence · August 2015

Dekkameron wrote: »

Deathztalker wrote: »

players new to PVE & PVP raid and end game content get upset when there told that raid groups don’t want the if they plan to use a bow as their main source of DPS

Ether remove it or fix but don't leave it the game as it is, right now it's just wasting peoples time and causing hurt feelings.

LOL?

I would love to hear someone saying in a raid (and probably typing like this)
"k gaiz i c sum ov u r uzin bowz, plz stop as dey r bad k?"

Get a grip seriously, bows are fine in both PvP and PvE. Sure in raids they don't have that many abilities that you use often but ah well.

Bow has the lowest DPS out of all classes with every type of weapon in PVE. There is no reason to use it.

Leandor · August 2015

While I don't PvE, I would just like to give some input on the points you made, my text in red/italics inline the quote:

Deathztalker wrote: »

Most of the bow ability have been broken for over 6 months now so that they don’t generate soul gems. That could be equalized by stacking stones prior to starting - I see that as a very minor issue.

The passive ability Long Shots doesn’t work trials and where all the DPS need to stack on the boss. This could also be attributed to bad encounter design. If it would be impossible to nullify enemy mechanics by stacking/DPS, bow would probably be one of the strongest choices since it is the only stamina range option.

The passive ability Hasty Retreat is now worthless with the changes to doge rolling I agree, but more because it now provides Major Expedition instead of a unique speed buff.

Anyways, main point is: Instead of removing Bow, please fix it so it fits into the game. Stamina needs a ranged option as well.

Miwerton · August 2015

Would love for bows to become more functionally usefull in pve, at the current rate in raids when im using it, it has mainly been as a second support bar, where have i caltrops and relentless focus for long term damage and snare and small stam regen boost and berserk damage increase. So far the magnum shot skill have been the most useless of bow abilities, which should be replaced with something more functional.

olemanwinter · August 2015

OP based on the type of post you made..."remove bow from the game" I can bet people are getting their "feelings hurt" by your attitude rather than the bow problems.

There is a thread here talking about how useless heavy armor is. Maybe we should "remove heavy armor from the game!!!!"

*rolls eyes*

Deathztalker · August 2015

olemanwinter wrote: »

OP based on the type of post you made..."remove bow from the game" I can bet people are getting their "feelings hurt" by your attitude rather than the bow problems.

There is a thread here talking about how useless heavy armor is. Maybe we should "remove heavy armor from the game!!!!"

*rolls eyes*

olemanwinter the bow has been plagued with issues since alpha testing, how many major patchs has the game had now with not real solution for the problems with the bow? What is you prediction when they will fix the issues with the bow 2017, 2018 or never? From the comments you made we can see that you don't understand the problem.