No longer "play how you want"

The Uninvited · August 2015

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Just wait until the EU copy goes on the PTS and at least one thread will pop up complaining about not being able to use the character or armor they have on live.

I can't follow your reasoning. If the copy goes on EU they will have the exact same armor they have on live, don't they?

I can't wait to really test my builds, because I use a lot of the sets from the templates but with some variations on them on live.

waterfairy · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Remember guys, I did say to "be successful" and "viable", you CAN play how you want, you just wont make it through any dungeons or be able to play pvp at all.

I have no vets yet and don't PvP so I've been playing how I want and get by just fine. I've solo'd public dungeons my level or higher (same with delves) and have done 2 man group dungeons.
I agree with your overall gripe though...this is the problem trying to take the Elder Scrolls freedom and trying to channel it into an MMO.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.

What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.

The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.

Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...

---
The game have never offered that(classes), and forced skill / equpemt set - ups

Lee_Vandenberg · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Remember guys, I did say to "be successful" and "viable", you CAN play how you want, you just wont make it through any dungeons or be able to play pvp at all.

This.....so true. My friend and I are a Dragonknight and Templar rank VR2 and 4, respectively, and we have such a good time questing together and doing PvE stuff, especially public bosses and dungeons, but when it comes to PvP, we suck, and I don't think its our fault. We do alright in dungeons, but honestly I'm not nearly as effective a healer as some people and he's not as good a tank either, which doesn't make sense to me. When I ask these people how they're so good they tell me about these super specialized builds they looked up online and other things of that nature, and they all say the exact same things.

Don't even get me started on PvP; we get killed by the exact same thing almost every time: some kind of stun spell followed by ridiculously damaging attacks. I don't recall the names of the spells and the attacks off the top of my head but it is literally the same thing almost every time. In Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, you could be good if you found a style of playing you liked and stuck with it, which is how an RPG is supposed to be. Whoever said spellmaking and custom enchanting needs to come back is right. It seems you can have fun playing PvE playing however you choose, but to be halfway decent at PvP there are skills and spells you HAVE to use.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2015

theres tons of builds that are viable. And tons of builds yet to be revealed.

Only cus your idea of a build went bad, doesn't mean the system is bad.

starkerealm · August 2015

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

theres tons of builds that are viable. And tons of builds yet to be revealed.

Only cus your idea of a build went bad, doesn't mean the system is bad.

I'll keep saying this until I'm spitting up blood.

There are some segments of the community who have gotten it in their head that there's only one way to play the game. They then turn around and tell you, "no, we worked out everything, this is the only legitimate option."

Here's the thing. They're ignoring at least two thirds of the game. Theirs is not the only way. It's the one they found that worked for them. It does not mean it's the only way it can work for you.

OzJohnD · August 2015

The instant this became PvP, play as you want went out the window.

AngryNord · August 2015

OzJohnD wrote: »

The instant this became PvP, play as you want went out the window.

PvP has always been in the game...

LEGENDARYYY · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

theres tons of builds that are viable. And tons of builds yet to be revealed.

Only cus your idea of a build went bad, doesn't mean the system is bad.

I'll keep saying this until I'm spitting up blood.

There are some segments of the community who have gotten it in their head that there's only one way to play the game. They then turn around and tell you, "no, we worked out everything, this is the only legitimate option."

Here's the thing. They're ignoring at least two thirds of the game. Theirs is not the only way. It's the one they found that worked for them. It does not mean it's the only way it can work for you.

If there was only one way to play this game then I would quit. There's no challenge in copying a meta.

I'm still here.

Avenias · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.

What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.

The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.

Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...

This isnt a proper elder scrolls game. Its got some good parts of elder scrolls like a semi decent main story, but everything else is an mmorpg, aka mindless grinding.

JD2013 · August 2015

They did say "Play as you want."

They never said "Every single build will work."

MornaBaine · August 2015

Yattaq wrote: »

"Play how you want" does not equal "everyone is at the same level of effectiveness regardless of the choices they make about their character"

And yet... why not? I'm not saying we should be able to throw any 5 random abilities on our bar and expect to do well BUT we SHOULD be able to build characters with a distinct "flavor" and have it work. Why must all Sorcs use staff? That's an awful design choice. And that's just one example from my pre-coffee brain. There are countless others. The game should have been designed to thwart min/maxxers, not to enable them.

Cherryblossom · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.

What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.

The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.

Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...

Firstly you do not have to use these skills, I would also suggest that there are lots of Cookie Cutter builds, not just one build to rule them all!

And hey DK's Breath Fire, what more dragon like do you want, he even gets wings!

As for your uniqueness, I don't believe any of the other games have this many different skills to use!

What's worst is the fact your getting me to defend ZOS where I much prefer to bash them!

Thunder · August 2015

Yattaq wrote: »

"Play how you want" does not equal "everyone is at the same level of effectiveness regardless of the choices they make about their character"

Yet it most certainly DOES equal, "success is independent of character build", which I believe to be the point of the OP. If you can play as you want then you should be able to successfully complete all the content the game has to offer, albeit with perhaps a great deal more effort. To put it more succinctly, to play as you want requires virtually any build to be viable.

Obviously a templar in heavy armor slinging arrows isn't going to compete with a light armored sorc in terms of DPS, nor should it, yet play the way you want suggests it would be a viable option. If play the way you want merely means that the game won't stop you from screwing up your build, well, that would make every game play the way you want, wouldn't it?

---edit---

I should clarify that I'm not attempting to claim certain builds aren't viable, merely demonstrating that saying all builds shouldn't be equal does not discount the fact that play as you want implies all builds should at least be viable.

Atarax · August 2015

This thread is why all class abilities should eventually be available on all characters. Works in the original Elder Scrolls Games, works in the MMOs that don't have classes out there.

Grapedragon · August 2015

Sneak_Thief wrote: »

Well you can play as you want, but also die and be ineffective as you don't want.

Who says I'm dying a lot? I don't need cookie cutter min/max builds to be good in a game, do I?
I feel more accomplished winning after a loss or two as it means that I got better with my build.

Yes, I don't use the best builds there are, doesn't mean I can't make the best of what I have/want.
I guess I lack the mentality behind all this, winning by all means necessary, having a perfect build...

Anzriel · August 2015

Look, it's nearly impossible to balance the game the way you want. There are a lot of 'viable' builds out there that aren't meta by any means. Most pve in this game is easy enough that most builds will be okay, and the skills are flexible enough that if you're creative like LEGENDARYYY you can create interesting builds that can do cool things. The reason you'd get facerolled in pvp is because everyone else can play as they want to and they chose a build that is more min-maxed than yours is.

Grapedragon · August 2015

Anzriel wrote: »

Look, it's nearly impossible to balance the game the way you want. There are a lot of 'viable' builds out there that aren't meta by any means. Most pve in this game is easy enough that most builds will be okay, and the skills are flexible enough that if you're creative like LEGENDARYYY you can create interesting builds that can do cool things. The reason you'd get facerolled in pvp is because everyone else can play as they want to and they chose a build that is more min-maxed than yours is.

If this is adressed to me: I didn't imply any of the things you said

If not: sorry, my bad

The Uninvited · August 2015

Atarax wrote: »

This thread is why all class abilities should eventually be available on all characters. Works in the original Elder Scrolls Games, works in the MMOs that don't have classes out there.

Absolutely not, this would eventually lead up to 1 cookiecutter build with everybody using the same abilities because those are the strongest.

Kavatchian · August 2015

I didn't pick a build for my DragonKnight. I play with what I like. I've been successful in both PVE, and PVP. I agree that more options, and customization would be better. More is better in MMOs. Even if some things are never used by a player someone will want to use it for a build or a role play style.

LEGENDARYYY · August 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

Yattaq wrote: »

"Play how you want" does not equal "everyone is at the same level of effectiveness regardless of the choices they make about their character"

And yet... why not? I'm not saying we should be able to throw any 5 random abilities on our bar and expect to do well BUT we SHOULD be able to build characters with a distinct "flavor" and have it work. Why must all Sorcs use staff? That's an awful design choice. And that's just one example from my pre-coffee brain. There are countless others. The game should have been designed to thwart min/maxxers, not to enable them.

Who said sorcs gotta use staves?

F7sus4 · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Don't even get me started on PvP; we get killed by the exact same thing almost every time: some kind of stun spell followed by ridiculously damaging attacks. I don't recall the names of the spells and the attacks off the top of my head but it is literally the same thing almost every time. In Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, you could be good if you found a style of playing you liked and stuck with it, which is how an RPG is supposed to be. Whoever said spellmaking and custom enchanting needs to come back is right.

TES series are single player games. You wouldn't say the same thing about Skyrim if you had another player standing next to you and fighting you with his build. While giving up 20% of your damage versus NPCs doesn't matter that much because you're overpowered anyway, it would make a difference when fighting another real player. And yes, this would lead to form a "Skyrim meta-game", which you already called "some builds found in the internet". It would be either, who's faster, who's more sneaky or who's more tanky. Pretty much the same as it is in ESO. Please try to understand the mechanics instead.

RedTalon · August 2015

Was it ever really people

alazliaub17_ESO · August 2015

Starting at console launch leaves a very steep learning curve. In the end all these games become about resource efficiency. If I can spend 10 mana and get 10 damage or I can spend 8 mana and get 14 damage the obvious choice is the second.

My primary complaint is that the system is not particularly straight forward on what's effective. I didn't use the Jesus beam until Vet rank because as a heavy stamina build at the time it had pathetic damage. I didn't know then that your total passive pool actually determines the effects damage. Trying out new things on the surface doesn't look efficient. This is the problem.

Change gear, change sets, change attributes and boom down from 12-14 seconds per single target mob to 4-6 seconds. This would improve further but I started doing only heavy armor research. My clothier alt (lvl 18) still needs significant points to make V6 gear.

This is compounded by the CP system. The system slowly removes weakness but to "get ahead" you need to reach an optimal farm/exp rate. This rate again hinges on the resource cost efficiency of your damage output. If I spec full stamina and then try and do magic damage I will need a ungodly regen to support that choice. You are essentially penalized by the rate at which you understand all the game mechanics.

There are a many little choices, like researching Infused trait on gear so your not waiting 15 days, where the best choice is rather hidden.

DenMoria · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Remember guys, I did say to "be successful" and "viable", you CAN play how you want, you just wont make it through any dungeons or be able to play pvp at all.

Then how are you "successful" or "viable"? Since the concentration of the game seems to be on the MMO and PvP positions.