I'm actually very happy with DKs stam abilities.Unstable flame is an insane DoT, and Burning Breath is pretty good, though not as strong. Either way, I think stam DK is great and I am having a lot of success on PTS on my stam DK

Unstable flame and burning breath are both amazing Stamina DoTs (primarily b/c stacking weapon dmg has been easier than spell damage).

With the nerf to block, magicka DKs will be in a hard spot considering that they have no mana-based gap closer. This historically was OK b/c sword/shield additionally provided blocking AND the gap closer AND an extra set bonus. At the moment, it seems likely that magicka DKs will continue to use Sw/Sh for the second two reasons. This seems OK at first glance but doesn't stack up against the competition since templars and nightblades can run DW (for 300+ more damage) while using their class (magicka) gap closer and Sorcs have a vastly superior spammable shield for defense.

The issues with the Stamina DK
I've been playing a stamina DK for a while. There are several issues on both sides of play, both PVE and PVP that make them weaker to their magicka brothers or their NB cousins. If you're playing a Stamina DK, expect that you're playing things on hard mode unless you take advantage of some pretty nasty exploits that I wish not to discuss. You are, in most cases, playing the handicapped version of a class.

PVP
When doing PVP Stamina builds typically want burst damage, the DK ESPECIALLY because they have NO ESCAPE. We have no way to go into stealth, no way to bolt way, nothing. We either kill the enemy, sustain till help arrives, or die. Any of those leave us in a poor position.

Most DK's will tell you they use primarily 2 hander wrecking blow spamming to burst down opponents, which is good when you're not lagging or they aren't just constantly side stepping you. I've been trying to use dual wield the past few days, but the burst isn't as high without a group to go with, and then you're still not going to really use many of the DK stamina abilities.

The typical abilities you do see used on stamina builds:
Green dragon blood - for the health and stamina regen, costing magicka
Petrify - to hold enemies in place for wrecking blow or something else and highly abuseable to permanently lock someone down through a CC lockdown if you time the recast right when they try to break free
Take flight - a gap closer , AOE CC, and damage dealer. the damage dealt is incapacitating strike and the animation on this takes much longer. at least you're getting stamina on this now...
Reflective scales - for bow builds, to counter other dragon wings or to reflect back meteor
Extended chains - gaining some popularity as a gap closer
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - Good for quick damage with heavy attacks, but you're not going to be getting any benefit to your other abilities.

I've been playing around and trying to include unstable flames and burning breath, but they take a while to proc, they are easily cleansed through various abilities, and the Valkyn Skoria helmet that works with them synergizes better with magicka builds. Most of the stuff DK's have is just augmenting a weapon based build, which various classes can do better, or is mimicking is magicka build, which they can do better.

PVE
PVE there is some use to both unstable flames and burning breath. Problem here is the sustained DPS is lacking depending on your build. he Dots are again, best on a magicka build, and you really lack a hard execute that a lot of other classes have.

With 2 hander builds, the damage revolves around using wreaking blows repeatedly with executes and rallies. fitting unstable flames and burning breath in between wreaking blows seems pretty useless given the DOT ticks taking the damage boost from wrecking blow and when you're in an execute phase you're not going to be wasting stamina on DOTs. if the boss is moving or teleporting a lot as well, 2 hand spamming is also limiting.

With duel wield builds, you tend to get more damage with stacking on dots like twin slice and then the rest of your DOTs and synergize it with Valkyn Skoria to hope for a proc. using this with rapid strikes and you can get a pretty solid DPS meter till execute phase... which unfortunately is a weaker AOE execute. works well on trash, but it feels lacking on bosses. given the lack of a class executes as well, it doesn't do as well as others can. something like a nightblade or Templar will do this better.

With Bow builds, on off bar... the damage is there I guess? but like most classes with Bows there its safe but slow DPS. you have some more damage with the volley, but the ability is lacking, and most of the damage is poison based, when your major synergy is most likely fire based. It can work well with Molten Armaments/igneous weapons, but only canceling it with the instant abilities, using snipe is typically too long for its use





Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities
Flames of Oblivion - I've fooled around with this on a couple PVE builds, but never saw a major increase in damage. I have a few ways that could help it:
a. Remove the spell crit chance, have the fire scale off weapon damage, and add in a bit of stamina each time a fireball hits
b. when mobs are below 50% health, all stamina based abilities are (choose 1): 1. cheaper 2. hit harder 3. grant back stamina or health
c. have it work like radiant magelight, giving better chance to see hidden enemies (maybe only when the DK is visible?). Yes this could be stacked up to give an ungodly amount of stealth detection, but would make DKs a hard counter to stealth builds.
Stone Giant - Make this stamina based, scale up by weapon power, and keep the cost low. this will be a good tool for bow builds to kite with
Fragmented Shield - set to possibly stamina based, increase the damage, and have it only apply to 2 to 3 people for the trade off. also please return the damage when folks hit your allies shields.

Armor sets
Red Mountain & Way of Fire - With Red Mountain the exploration trait sucks on it, and with Way of Fire the fire damage is so so. We could change the 5 piece bonus a few ways
A. To mirror silks of the sun, giving an increase to fire based damage.
B. Every time a fire DOT ticks, have a chance to do X more fire damage
C. When a fire DOT ticks, gain x stamina/health

I'd also recommend adding in a necklace, 2 hander, or maybe rings to the set.





Hopefully this will give devs enough thoughts in how to improve and make it so DKs are not just a class to base magicka abilities on.

IF they had managed to fix 100% penetration bug such dmg would NOT be possible, but seems ZOS cant fix this..

so better nerf the dmg of skills bc its the easier way

wrathofrraath wrote: »

Just grind mighty and sword expert to 100 each and you can one shot everything with molten arms and a 2h heavy attack gg

Do you have tested this or can u provide numbers?

Just talkin for Pvp Stam Dk's.
In pve they do good. Till the Pen bug is fixed. If this is ever goin to happen ^^

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I'm actually very happy with DKs stam abilities.Unstable flame is an insane DoT, and Burning Breath is pretty good, though not as strong. Either way, I think stam DK is great and I am having a lot of success on PTS on my stam DK

I know your doing more PVP than I do Lucy, what build are you using with yours and are you doing better than you would do with a similar build on a NB in PVP or more DPS than a magicka one in PVE? Note I'm not asking if you beat other NBs or magicka DKs, since player skill is a huge factor. I feel personally I can do alright stamina, but magicka and other class builds are nuch easier and nigh impossible to fight against in the right hands.

Ishammael wrote: »

Unstable flame and burning breath are both amazing Stamina DoTs (primarily b/c stacking weapon dmg has been easier than spell damage).

With the nerf to block, magicka DKs will be in a hard spot considering that they have no mana-based gap closer. This historically was OK b/c sword/shield additionally provided blocking AND the gap closer AND an extra set bonus. At the moment, it seems likely that magicka DKs will continue to use Sw/Sh for the second two reasons. This seems OK at first glance but doesn't stack up against the competition since templars and nightblades can run DW (for 300+ more damage) while using their class (magicka) gap closer and Sorcs have a vastly superior spammable shield for defense.

Sorry I didn't address this before but extended chaise is now your gap closer, bringing them to you or you to them.

xylena wrote: »

@Teiji testing in a duel there were two separate 8-9k range surprise attacks on my death recap and i dont recall my opponent light attack weaving... surprise attack simply hits way too hard for an instant cast spammable dps both on live and the pts, especially on a setup with 2x sharpened maces... damage needs to be more in line with something like low slash, zero reason this ability should be up there with cast time moves like wrecking blow, snipe, crystal shards, etc...

This right here shows our major weakness to our sister dps class. It seems to take less coordination for a NB to spam attacks than DKS to wait for DOTS to tick.

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

Alright, gear, rotation, and why is that higher out than the magicka build DK with sunsilks/Valkyn Skoria set using lava whip and how is this higher than the standard stamina templar in 2.0 on live?

Our Stam DKs have the same dps numbers(given that they are in same CP range) as magicka DKs more or less.

For Single Target Stam DK is like 1-2k less than magicka Dks.
BUT AoE wise Stam builds are always 2-3x stronger bc steeltornado OP.
Cant speak for next patch yet tho, but on live that real.

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

xylena wrote: »

i've mained stam dk for over a year... my sustained pvp dps is now pathetic, yet i can still 2-hit burst kill people with 8-9k wrecking blow into 10-12k take flight... worst of both worlds

much as i'd love a stam whip morph, i'd also settle for them nerfing the spud out of stam surprise attack and stam jabs... stam dk dueling a stam nb, i look at my combat log and i'm hit for 8-9k surprise attacks over and over... again, worst of both worlds

ambush should have a minimum range just like all the other gap closers. ie crit rush

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

Alright, gear, rotation, and why is that higher out than the magicka build DK with sunsilks/Valkyn Skoria set using lava whip and how is this higher than the standard stamina templar in 2.0 on live?

Our Stam DKs have the same dps numbers(given that they are in same CP range) as magicka DKs more or less.

For Single Target Stam DK is like 1-2k less than magicka Dks.
BUT AoE wise Stam builds are always 2-3x stronger bc steeltornado OP.
Cant speak for next patch yet tho, but on live that real.

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

Give me a gear setup and rotation and I will more than happily try it out. I've seen few setups to beat out stamina templars in PVE. Also, what total numbers are you looking for and are you looking at the full round of a single boss fight?

steal tordado + caltrops + standard + 5p ravager set = OP mob dps
however; switch out standard for nova. templar can do great mob dps too.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

Alright, gear, rotation, and why is that higher out than the magicka build DK with sunsilks/Valkyn Skoria set using lava whip and how is this higher than the standard stamina templar in 2.0 on live?

Our Stam DKs have the same dps numbers(given that they are in same CP range) as magicka DKs more or less.

For Single Target Stam DK is like 1-2k less than magicka Dks.
BUT AoE wise Stam builds are always 2-3x stronger bc steeltornado OP.
Cant speak for next patch yet tho, but on live that real.

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

Give me a gear setup and rotation and I will more than happily try it out. I've seen few setups to beat out stamina templars in PVE. Also, what total numbers are you looking for and are you looking at the full round of a single boss fight?

I havent been playing much lately due to military service, But like 3 Weeks ago his highest dps was like 21k on mantikora(he has around 360 CP) and 19k+ on Serpent HM.
Our magicka DKs pulling approx same numbers, maybe slightly more but thats it, and ofc they pull less AoE dps. All magicka classes are screwed UNLESS you got magicka det, but still steeltornado Ftw.

I have heard reports ppl pulling of 26k+ dps with StamNB/Templars BUT 900+CP, Bananas EU like to grind, just saying lol

I hope that seasonal cap comes soon so those mofo grinders get screwed pretty hard, I am looking forward to that srsly and I WILL laugh my ass off )))))

Those *** CPs are grinding my gears srsly, why would grinding goblins 24/7 give the best Benefits the game has to offer bc it requires 0 brain activity.
I dont even try to fight certain people anymore that have 800+ Cp in PvP.

Warraxx wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

i've mained stam dk for over a year... my sustained pvp dps is now pathetic, yet i can still 2-hit burst kill people with 8-9k wrecking blow into 10-12k take flight... worst of both worlds

much as i'd love a stam whip morph, i'd also settle for them nerfing the spud out of stam surprise attack and stam jabs... stam dk dueling a stam nb, i look at my combat log and i'm hit for 8-9k surprise attacks over and over... again, worst of both worlds

ambush should have a minimum range just like all the other gap closers. ie crit rush

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

Alright, gear, rotation, and why is that higher out than the magicka build DK with sunsilks/Valkyn Skoria set using lava whip and how is this higher than the standard stamina templar in 2.0 on live?

Our Stam DKs have the same dps numbers(given that they are in same CP range) as magicka DKs more or less.

For Single Target Stam DK is like 1-2k less than magicka Dks.
BUT AoE wise Stam builds are always 2-3x stronger bc steeltornado OP.
Cant speak for next patch yet tho, but on live that real.

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

Give me a gear setup and rotation and I will more than happily try it out. I've seen few setups to beat out stamina templars in PVE. Also, what total numbers are you looking for and are you looking at the full round of a single boss fight?

steal tordado + caltrops + standard + 5p ravager set = OP mob dps
however; switch out standard for nova. templar can do great mob dps too.

Hmmm, I'll give that a try, the standard is the only unique thing here. You'd get similar effect with veil or bat warm I feel, to a degree. And what was your other sets? Hundings and master weapons? Was this your rotation on single target? Also not sure if this still works as well with the changes to caltrops


Also, noticing a lot of DKS with sun silks, Valkyn Skoria, cyrodiil's light, and to rugs pack are doing upwards of 20k on a poor rotation, eruption, caltrops, elemental ring, and maybe talons. For Single Target whip whip whip.

Alcast wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

oryxnamder7 wrote: »

For PvE DPS, I believe they need a buff. I've played a Stam DK for over a year and at V14 doing end game PvE since 1.6.

I have tried all the best gear combos and I don't see many of us keeping up with the top dps in PvE. Numbers are OK but not as good as NB or Templar stam dps.

HeroOfNone's post is awesome with some great suggestions. Extract below

"Ways to Improve Things
I have a few ways to improve the damage and sustainability of the DK to make it feel unique, but I'll leave it to folks smarter than I to figure out the balance to these things, rather than blindly tossing out numbers. Folks have been saying stamina whip till their blue in the face, but I feel there is still other ways to improve it outside of the whip.

Abilities
Molten Armaments/Igneous Weapons - return the burning to this ability and have it have a change to apply for any melee hit or stamina melee ability. no need to increase the % damage on something, just give it a chance to land a dot if folks are going to risk getting in close.
Unstable Flame - a few
a. give it a chance to restore stamina at the end of the DOT.
b. Can not be purged or removed.
c. enemies under the effect of this take X% more damage from Melee abilities"

Stam DKs have Top Single Targer DPS and crazy AoE output like all other stam classes. Youjust need touse the right skills

Alright, gear, rotation, and why is that higher out than the magicka build DK with sunsilks/Valkyn Skoria set using lava whip and how is this higher than the standard stamina templar in 2.0 on live?

Our Stam DKs have the same dps numbers(given that they are in same CP range) as magicka DKs more or less.

For Single Target Stam DK is like 1-2k less than magicka Dks.
BUT AoE wise Stam builds are always 2-3x stronger bc steeltornado OP.
Cant speak for next patch yet tho, but on live that real.

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

Give me a gear setup and rotation and I will more than happily try it out. I've seen few setups to beat out stamina templars in PVE. Also, what total numbers are you looking for and are you looking at the full round of a single boss fight?

I havent been playing much lately due to military service, But like 3 Weeks ago his highest dps was like 21k on mantikora(he has around 360 CP) and 19k+ on Serpent HM.
Our magicka DKs pulling approx same numbers, maybe slightly more but thats it, and ofc they pull less AoE dps. All magicka classes are screwed UNLESS you got magicka det, but still steeltornado Ftw.

I have heard reports ppl pulling of 26k+ dps with StamNB/Templars BUT 900+CP, Bananas EU like to grind, just saying lol

I hope that seasonal cap comes soon so those mofo grinders get screwed pretty hard, I am looking forward to that srsly and I WILL laugh my ass off )))))

Those *** CPs are grinding my gears srsly, why would grinding goblins 24/7 give the best Benefits the game has to offer bc it requires 0 brain activity.
I dont even try to fight certain people anymore that have 800+ Cp in PvP.

The CPS might be a deciding factor in some of this. I'm looking at a 120 view point, where you can get 40 points per tree for one focus. When you hit 300 on it, the stats change drastically, but I still see spell users edging or the stamina users and most abilities we use are in the weapon lines. Willing to try anything here on pts

Oh btw, Lefty doesn't have a burst build, he uses dots to wear the enemies down. yeah that's so bursty. LOL.

I consider his build to be a Hybrid. and many other would agree with me, Just because You call something an apple doesn't mean that's what it is. someone else may call it something else. what I consider a hybrid is someone who wears combination of armor and uses magica and stamina skills to deal damage,
He's using the warlock set in his build, (magica) and the other set he's using is heavy armor and builds upon his tankiness.

He doesn't have all his gear set up for pure damage.
What you're arguing is highly subjective as well.

Alcast wrote: »

Our Stam DK pulls about the same numbers as a Stam Templar.

MORE!

And no I'm not willing to share information about my build. My highest DPS on Manti was 22,6k (over 1 month ago) I'm pretty sure I can hit up to 25k. On Serpent my highest was 19,8k but I'm also confident I can improve there.

Rest easy knowing that Stam DK is a strong PvE DPS when played correctly and figure out the rest for yourself. (that's the fun part after all, isn't it? And I don't want to spoil that for you.)