2.1 PTS patch notes -- Stamina sorcs taking it hard in all the wrong places.

Cathexis · July 2015

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

If we don't get the same choice every class has had since 1.6, we should be given race changes. If There is no point in being a stamina race as a caster, they shouldn't offer it as an option

Also if you read up on the countless threads about stam sorc changes, you would see there are a number of viable alternatives for stam based morphs or stam compatible skills (specifically low magicka cost stamina class buffs, additional stamina bonuses on passives, and much more).

Just because it is difficult to achieve in a way that respects lore does not mean it is impossible. Many people have come up with creative changes. Zen themselves have even shown this with dark exchange.

It isn't impossible it just requires creativity which is what the game is about.

Andsuppose you are a magicka sorcs, who stands to lose nothing from the addition of stamina benefits, why do you even care?

I'm not sure how I feel about stamina sorcs, I don't want to be one but I want them to exist. I don't want my morphs pinched though. The only suggestions I have read on how to improve stamina sorcs have been to turn currently existing magicka morphs, some of which I use, into stamina morphs. I'm sure it's clear why I would care about this. If stam sorcs can be brought up to scratch without affecting morphs that magicka sorcs use then great. If not then expect opposition from magicka sorcs.

I don't think any Stamina sorc wants to hurt the current magicka builds that exist. That's not our angle. We want Stamina builds to be equally playable to magicka builds in pvp.

That's all there is to it. It wouldn't be hard to add benefits to existing skills that extend Stamina sorcs, with no or little impact (positive I might add) on magicka builds.

True, it would be nice to have some stamina morphs, but most of those suggestions have been targeted at changing skills that magicka sorcs blatantly don't use, like the crystal blast morph.

Plus, don't you think its a bit rediculous that stamina sorcs get no defensive spells like a stamina scaling ward as a counterpart to a magicka scaling ward? It would be easy to implement this change. Just make both wards give bonuses to pet damage, and have one scale off stam and one scale off magicka. Easy peasy.

Certainly wouldn't make pet builds OP, they need all the help they can get anyway.

Same with the way they implemented the new storm armor to scale off stamina, make both of them give run speed, have one scale off stamina and one of magicka. (Not that I think this skill requires a stamina morph, no one wanted a stamina morph of this ability on either side of the argument it is stupid they implemented it, and the fact that they didn't implement the stamina morph to have a run speed increase shows how dumb they are and how little they know about stamina sorcs).

This is the kind of change I am talking about.

It's a very tricky subject; there are people who use crystal blast (although I'm not sure why), it is unlikely there will be no losers if many sorc morphs go stamina. As for the ward issue, I agree you need a ward but I don't want hardened ward doing anything to pets. Pets will always be useless in pvp no matter how much damage you give them; they are too easy to kite while focusing the player that summoned them.

I have an idea; how about zos remove the daedric summoning skill line completely, give atronach to storm calling (and get rid of overload), and then give stam sorcs their own skill line?

I actually had suggested in one thread that they just ramp up the daedric summoning line to be stamina based, which was further expanded to the idea that maybe the summoning tree skill line could just use whatever stat type is higher, like ultimates.

As for the ward affecting pets, that is something one of the morphs already does -- hypothetically that effect would just be added to the current ward so that magicka sorcs would still have access to it in addition to hardened ward's current benefits. That would open up a morph that would be an equivalent stamina morph.

Also, I would never ask them to get rid of overload, that skill is god mode.

FriedEggSandwich · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

If we don't get the same choice every class has had since 1.6, we should be given race changes. If There is no point in being a stamina race as a caster, they shouldn't offer it as an option

Also if you read up on the countless threads about stam sorc changes, you would see there are a number of viable alternatives for stam based morphs or stam compatible skills (specifically low magicka cost stamina class buffs, additional stamina bonuses on passives, and much more).

Just because it is difficult to achieve in a way that respects lore does not mean it is impossible. Many people have come up with creative changes. Zen themselves have even shown this with dark exchange.

It isn't impossible it just requires creativity which is what the game is about.

Andsuppose you are a magicka sorcs, who stands to lose nothing from the addition of stamina benefits, why do you even care?

I'm not sure how I feel about stamina sorcs, I don't want to be one but I want them to exist. I don't want my morphs pinched though. The only suggestions I have read on how to improve stamina sorcs have been to turn currently existing magicka morphs, some of which I use, into stamina morphs. I'm sure it's clear why I would care about this. If stam sorcs can be brought up to scratch without affecting morphs that magicka sorcs use then great. If not then expect opposition from magicka sorcs.

I don't think any Stamina sorc wants to hurt the current magicka builds that exist. That's not our angle. We want Stamina builds to be equally playable to magicka builds in pvp.

That's all there is to it. It wouldn't be hard to add benefits to existing skills that extend Stamina sorcs, with no or little impact (positive I might add) on magicka builds.

True, it would be nice to have some stamina morphs, but most of those suggestions have been targeted at changing skills that magicka sorcs blatantly don't use, like the crystal blast morph.

Plus, don't you think its a bit rediculous that stamina sorcs get no defensive spells like a stamina scaling ward as a counterpart to a magicka scaling ward? It would be easy to implement this change. Just make both wards give bonuses to pet damage, and have one scale off stam and one scale off magicka. Easy peasy.

Certainly wouldn't make pet builds OP, they need all the help they can get anyway.

Same with the way they implemented the new storm armor to scale off stamina, make both of them give run speed, have one scale off stamina and one of magicka. (Not that I think this skill requires a stamina morph, no one wanted a stamina morph of this ability on either side of the argument it is stupid they implemented it, and the fact that they didn't implement the stamina morph to have a run speed increase shows how dumb they are and how little they know about stamina sorcs).

This is the kind of change I am talking about.

It's a very tricky subject; there are people who use crystal blast (although I'm not sure why), it is unlikely there will be no losers if many sorc morphs go stamina. As for the ward issue, I agree you need a ward but I don't want hardened ward doing anything to pets. Pets will always be useless in pvp no matter how much damage you give them; they are too easy to kite while focusing the player that summoned them.

I have an idea; how about zos remove the daedric summoning skill line completely, give atronach to storm calling (and get rid of overload), and then give stam sorcs their own skill line?

I actually had suggested in one thread that they just ramp up the daedric summoning line to be stamina based, which was further expanded to the idea that maybe the summoning tree skill line could just use whatever stat type is higher, like ultimates.

As for the ward affecting pets, that is something one of the morphs already does -- hypothetically that effect would just be added to the current ward so that magicka sorcs would still have access to it in addition to hardened ward's current benefits. That would open up a morph that would be an equivalent stamina morph.

Also, I would never ask them to get rid of overload, that skill is god mode.

Yeah I wasn't really serious about getting rid of anything. I'm not that keen on overload. I use it as a utility bar, keeping dark exchange, purge and maneuver on it. I wouldn't want to lose it for that reason. I literally never use the attacks against players though, mainly cos I hate it being used against me so much.

A serious suggestion though would be to just give all classes another class skill line, so they had 4 each, and then make 2 stamina and 2 magicka.

P3ZZL3 · July 2015

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Part of me wants to feel bad for stamina sorcerers then I remember that they're MAGIC users and the feeling passes.

SugaComa · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

Why even offer sorcerer classes to Stam based races at all if they aren't going to be viable to play?

Define viable ?

SugaComa · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

DirtySouth wrote: »

And they are right you can play any role with any class you want. They never said it would be any good tho.... Cry babies

Which is the problem being addressed here. If stamina sorcs builds are going to be offered, they need to be competitive in all areas like EVERY OTHER STAMINA CLASS.

If they didnt intend for stamina sorcs to be a class that is viable, they shouldn't offer it as a play option.

Question ... Are theyre any classes out there that would simple suck as bad as a stamina sorc if it went the magic route,

I simply ask cos you're I went Nightblade Templar stamina and moat of the actives in the class are magic based

In fact when I look nearly all classes have more magic based actives than stamina ... With a rough 2 to 1 ratio except for the Sorcerer nearly all their class perks are magic based.

My point is this game is clearly built for players to either use class magic and weapons with a fine balancinginv act, but the Max/min brigades have done their best to make over powered classes in any arena . meaning that to compete we now have to all build the same builds or we can be unique at the cost of playability.

I think Zos are trying to address this issue by further balancing classes so their are more reason to spread your mana across stamina and magic and still have them as viable as a pure stamina or pure magika build which means sadly somewhere you're overpowered builds will suffer

The knock on effect if that is of courses sorceress not having as many stamina based skill sets will feel the pinch more.

But then if yourre going stamina sorc what exactly are you spending your magic on and is not t really worth the effort n trade off.

I'm not trying to be a *** here I'm trying to understand the situation..

Cos as a new person to ESO I feel anyone choosing to pick a Sorcerer for a stamina class build is someone who just want to be difficult for difficulty sake ... The class clearly wasn't designed to do it so why try it ... Bring us back to the boat analogy which I liked

You want to go on the lake buy a boat not a car, trying to make a car seaworthy is a futile endeavour

Cherryblossom · July 2015

I think the first question that should always be asked is..... have you tried the changes yet!

If the answer is NO, then you have no idea and it's just speculation.

Cathexis · July 2015

Cherryblossom wrote: »

I think the first question that should always be asked is..... have you tried the changes yet!

If the answer is NO, then you have no idea and it's just speculation.

My understanding is that the only positive that came out of the changes was dark exchange. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the changes have been generally bad, and the new addition of a stamina bound armor has weakly increased close range aoe damage at the cost of a 40% speed increase which is not worth the trade off. If you read you will see most stam sorcs agree on this. Many stam sorcs are frustrated that after 6 months, none of the suggestions that were made were implemented and that the discussed needs seem to have even been ignored.

...

@SugaComa pure stam and pure magicka are the only way you can go hybrids are not viable in pvp comparatively. Also many of us stamina sorcs didn't get a choice, we were subject to the race changes pre 1.6 and the systemic overhaul of 1.6 that made hybrid builds non-viable. Every other class has strong synergy that covers at least some necessary areas when it comes to stamina builds. Stam sorcs lack stamina sustain, defensive skills, relative mobility is crap, the worst damage, and have no stamina morphs that serve a real function. Most of their magicka abilities synergize poorly.

...

SugaComa wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Why even offer sorcerer classes to Stam based races at all if they aren't going to be viable to play?

Define viable ?

Skills that do things, that offer viable sustain, and allow for dynamic non-one sided combat.

yodased · July 2015

No shield? Brawler/Barrier/Absorb Magic/Defensive Posture/Block Reduction
No defense? Barrier/Immovable/Evasion/Caltrops/1h+S
No Mobility? Well plenty of mobility, just not enough to run into the sunset and hide like your magic brethren. Or just be like every other stam build and use gap closers/vampire to get around.
No stam sustain? You literally have the only spell that recovers stamina directly.
Worst damage? Your wrecking blow or Snipe or steel tornado is gonna hit just as hard as the next guy.

My stamina templar uses maximum 3 class abilities on his bar. Jesus heal beam, BoL and biting jabs.

One of those is a stam based ability.

Basically it comes down to the fact that you are going to relying on non-class skills for a stamina build on every class more than class skills.

Only a NB is going to be able to have an even split and thats because they inherently have amazing resource management built into them.

DK's will have reflect, whip (maybe not now cause its dodge-able) and dragon blood on their bars. The rest non class abilities.
Templars already discussed.
Sorcs put their 2-3 stam class abilities on and go about their business.

I think its interesting that the clear line between weapon based characters and class skill based characters isn't the defining point, it's resource based.

If we could get off the stam vs magic and talk about class vs non class it may be easier to discuss.

Weapon or magic makes more sense to me in that way.

Cathexis · July 2015

yodased wrote: »

No shield? Brawler/Barrier/Absorb Magic/Defensive Posture/Block Reduction
No defense? Barrier/Immovable/Evasion/Caltrops/1h+S
No Mobility? Well plenty of mobility, just not enough to run into the sunset and hide like your magic brethren. Or just be like every other stam build and use gap closers/vampire to get around.
No stam sustain? You literally have the only spell that recovers stamina directly.
Worst damage? Your wrecking blow or Snipe or steel tornado is gonna hit just as hard as the next guy.

My stamina templar uses maximum 3 class abilities on his bar. Jesus heal beam, BoL and biting jabs.

One of those is a stam based ability.

Basically it comes down to the fact that you are going to relying on non-class skills for a stamina build on every class more than class skills.

Only a NB is going to be able to have an even split and thats because they inherently have amazing resource management built into them.

DK's will have reflect, whip (maybe not now cause its dodge-able) and dragon blood on their bars. The rest non class abilities.
Templars already discussed.
Sorcs put their 2-3 stam class abilities on and go about their business.

I think its interesting that the clear line between weapon based characters and class skill based characters isn't the defining point, it's resource based.

If we could get off the stam vs magic and talk about class vs non class it may be easier to discuss.

Weapon or magic makes more sense to me in that way.

Yes and the point being made is that none of our class skills provide any essential tactical asset, unlike every other class which has stamina based skills or stamina based synergy that offers a tactical edge in some capacity.

Barrier/Immovable/Evasion/Caltrops/1h+S -- None of these are real options for defence -- all of them are circumstantial and all of them are passive rather than tactical except caltrops. Caltrops is high cost and low damage and only acts as a psychological deterrent that is easily avoided. Barrier is an ultimate so you cant just spam that during combat -- you get one, if you have it charged. Immovable and storm armor dont stack -- you get one or the other. 1h+S is a passive, and small defensive bonus. Evasion is probably the only one that offers viable utility, and is just another spammable 20 second buff with no active tactical advantage. Are you honestly saying that we need to use 4 skills and a specific weapon set just to be able to survive? That doesnt really leave a lot of options in terms of offensive combat.

I don't see how gap closers and magicka vampire skills will help us "get around." Especially when vamp makes you stupid weak to a ton of crap, and its way more advantageous to be a werewolf pre-pts.

Our spell that recovers stamina directly also makes us a huge target and defenseless for about 4 seconds. In the new patch, this has supposedly improved somewhat so I'll give you that (if you completely blatantly ignore all the things we lost in exchange for that change).

Offensive damage -- I won't disagree on that point either, but the problem is not that our damage with any of those things is particularly weak, the problem is we lack class abilities that deal equivalent damage.

I do run a fairly successful stamina build on my sorc, that actually uses pretty much every ability you have mentioned (except immovable which is garbage compared to what else you can slot, barrier which is too circumstantial for 1vX, and vamp which is just stupid to use in general). But if you ever play a stamina sorc you would see that it is a struggle to survive in 1vX comparatively. Generally I find I am forced to run either sword board/sword board to be able to survive 1vX encounters, or sword board/bow if I am hunting from stealth in a group at the expense of 1vX viability (two different animals entirely)

yodased · July 2015

Ok for gap closers and vamp to get around.

If you use gap closers right you can get out of fights. For instance I tend to use crit charge on an NPC that can put me in a position to get away from my attacks way faster than any other mechanic> Sure its situation based, but it works great.

Mist form is the defacto mobility spell for templars and dks, magic or stam and the negatives are being brought in line to make it more viable.

I play a magic sorc, I don't have a stam sorc because it seemed to be quite unwieldy and awkward even from Beta.

Cathexis · July 2015

Vamp is quite possibly the worst thing to use in the game, you become susceptible to a ridiculous number of skills and passives, fire damage, and weak health regen. Werewolf is significantly better simply because you dont suffer these problems without shifting and you get a stamina regen bonus. Temps and DKs might have mechanisms that counter these problems, but sorcs don't.

I keep charge on my bar for the same reason (actually quite a few reasons), but the utility you are using it for is weak and compensated for already on a stam sorc with bol + dodge roll, and only to the extent that it allows you to reposition yourself in combat, not remove yourself as our magicka counterparts can do.

cazlonb16_ESO · July 2015

It could be worse. You could be Templars. Or Argonians. Or Argonian Templars

Cathexis · July 2015

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

It could be worse. You could be Templars. Or Argonians. Or Argonian Templars

I'd trade storm armor for sun shield any day of the week.

cazlonb16_ESO · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

It could be worse. You could be Templars. Or Argonians. Or Argonian Templars

I'd trade storm armor for sun shield any day of the week.

Deal

Why you'd want another shield is kinda beyond me though, Sorcs don't need it in defense and the damage it does is neglible even on live. I could see the benefit to a tank build focussed completely on HP, but there are probably about 3 characters like that out there...Ok, maybe 4 with consoles.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

pikey2112b14a_ESO wrote: »

I run a stamina sorc,honestly the stam morph to BA is

Acrolas wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Zos explicitly stated repeatedly in its advertisement of this game that players will have the option to play how they want.

Because only the CAPITAL LETTERS matter and not the context.

I wanna play standing next my horse: (

Never understood why we can't interact more with our horses all we get is magicaly summoning it with a whistle.

FENGRUSH · July 2015

Maotti_Nor wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

This is the worst shift for stamina sorcs imaginable.

What we gained:
A stamina boundless storm -- USELESS .. We don't have spell pierce!!
Increased stam regen from dark exchange
Longer surge duration lower process cooldown -- now those random heals will be slightly less unpredictable/unreliable/still trash

What we lost:
Ball of lightning duration reduced to 1.5 seconds -- one of our ONLY defences when retreating or finding cover where there is none
BE cost nerf -- now we can only cast it twice, period
Dodge roll nerf -- our only other defence when retreating
Stamina regen stopped while blocking -- block builds further beaten down
Werewolf stamina regen bonus -- because Stam regen wasn't bad enough already

THIS IS [snip].

Edit I was wrong about dark exchange camges affect both morphs

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Just switch to magicka build. It is a SORCERER after all....Wow...Unbelievable.

I'm a hardcore sorc fan and i agree with this, away with any stam morphs. Stamina is just not viable for sorcs.

@Maotti_Nor Lets do a 1v1 and see who is more viable.

Cathexis · July 2015

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

It could be worse. You could be Templars. Or Argonians. Or Argonian Templars

I'd trade storm armor for sun shield any day of the week.

Deal

Why you'd want another shield is kinda beyond me though, Sorcs don't need it in defense and the damage it does is neglible even on live. I could see the benefit to a tank build focussed completely on HP, but there are probably about 3 characters like that out there...Ok, maybe 4 with consoles.

if were allowed other skills I'd take cleansing ritual, restoring aura, backlash, or eclipse

thats not even looking at passives.

Stam sorcs don't have any way to purge by the way unless you run purge on your bar as well, which I have yet to be able to figure out how to balance in.

FENGRUSH · July 2015

Stam templars have insane high DPS - to complain about their skill set is a joke. Jabs damage is through the roof compared to any other class specific stam morph for throwing out DPS. Not to mention they have a passive (sorcs dont have good passives here) that adds more DPS off procs.

Eirhead · July 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Maotti_Nor wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

This is the worst shift for stamina sorcs imaginable.

What we gained:
A stamina boundless storm -- USELESS .. We don't have spell pierce!!
Increased stam regen from dark exchange
Longer surge duration lower process cooldown -- now those random heals will be slightly less unpredictable/unreliable/still trash

What we lost:
Ball of lightning duration reduced to 1.5 seconds -- one of our ONLY defences when retreating or finding cover where there is none
BE cost nerf -- now we can only cast it twice, period
Dodge roll nerf -- our only other defence when retreating
Stamina regen stopped while blocking -- block builds further beaten down
Werewolf stamina regen bonus -- because Stam regen wasn't bad enough already

THIS IS [snip].

Edit I was wrong about dark exchange camges affect both morphs

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Just switch to magicka build. It is a SORCERER after all....Wow...Unbelievable.

I'm a hardcore sorc fan and i agree with this, away with any stam morphs. Stamina is just not viable for sorcs.

@Maotti_Nor Lets do a 1v1 and see who is more viable.

Oh ya? My level 45 is 2-shotting VR14s all day every day... I hope to have this improved to 1-shotting once I level and twink out my character with veteran armor.

Wouldn't be difficult for me to annihilate a few extra shields considering all the stun and knockdown effects.

SugaComa · July 2015

Cathexis wrote: »

@SugaComa pure stam and pure magicka are the only way you can go hybrids are not viable in pvp comparatively. Also many of us stamina sorcs didn't get a choice, we were subject to the race changes pre 1.6 and the systemic overhaul of 1.6 that made hybrid builds non-viable. Every other class has strong synergy that covers at least some necessary areas when it comes to stamina builds. Stam sorcs lack stamina sustain, defensive skills, relative mobility is crap, the worst damage, and have no stamina morphs that serve a real function. Most of their magicka abilities synergize poorly.

...

SugaComa wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Why even offer sorcerer classes to Stam based races at all if they aren't going to be viable to play?

Define viable ?

Skills that do things, that offer viable sustain, and allow for dynamic non-one sided combat.

Now I get it, ... Thanks for the help, I was curious as my new character is a Sorcerer but going all magic, I wanted an all magic Templar but I couldn't do it n ended up with a hybrid,

I still think that mabye Zos has it wrong in allowing builds to become so lopsided and feel that maybe for the sake of pvp balance they force a limit on the ratio spread of health magic and stamina, I know this won't be a popular thought, but surely the problem isn't in the Sorcerer build but in that of its competition being overpowered

Maybe only allow a five poing gap example

Magic =5
Stamina =0
Health =5
I now have a 5 point discrepency and must spend one in stamina and will have to add one to stamina each time I add one to the others forcing a hybrid build

This brings down the overpowered users making stamina build Sorcerers more viable

Though your definition of viable is *** ... Sorry

But your stuff already does stuff

Cathexis · July 2015

SugaComa wrote: »

But your stuff already does stuff

@SugaComa While I can respect your perspective that my definition might still be ambiguous, many stam sorcs would argue differently on your point about stuff doing stuff.

Typically stam sorcs use only a few class abilities, most of which only provide passive benefit

Currently we have 2 morphs that are pure stam
->Bound Armor: Passive benefit, really only used for its stamina bonus, the defense bonus is a small perk, and the heavy attack bonus is worthless
->Dark Exchange stam morph: Active benefit, mostly while out of combat. Yes it is useful in group combat, and the regen isn't awful, but it currently puts you out of combat and defenseless for a duration of 4 seconds at least, sometimes you have to cast it twice. And it puts a large animation on you that makes you a huge target. Its also hard as a stam user to move far enough away to use it safely.. the coming patch changes have had mixed reviews.. I HOPE it will be viable, but most people seem to think it is a small improvement if not a sideways moving change.

Stam sorcs use a couple other skills SOMETIMES that are magicka based
->Storm armor for its 5 seconds of 40% movement increase... A good build doesn't even need this, its really for bow users or aoe stacked builds but its completely off my bar lately (I'm an orc sorc though so i get 30%~ speed bonus while sprinting in leather)...this is an active bonus that can be used tactically.
->Surge for everything but builds that have 2 hand on swap (because rally is better).... passive bonus
->Ball of Lightning because it protects us from magic projectiles, so it acts as a line of sight. We typically get 2-3 casts out of this from full magicka (3 if you pause after the first or second cast). In the coming patch BoL will be getting a massive nerf from 6.5 second to 1.5 second BoL's meaning we won't be able to line of sight spells with this anymore. On top of that, the compound casting debuff will make it harder to get more than 2 casts out of BoL.....is (or rather was) an active tactical skill

So really in this patch, we will be going from 3 active skills to 2 active skills (one of which isn't even really necessary to have if you just use sprint in leather)

Of those two skills, the unnecessary one is the only one that provides active benefit that is actually functional in combat situations.

So really our class stuff doesn't do a whole lot of stuff, and will do even less in the following patch.

Pallmor · July 2015

If you think that's bad, try being a PvE tank with blocking nerfed and werewolf stamina regen nerfed. Another example of PvP whining screwing over PvE players.

Cathexis · July 2015

Pallmor wrote: »

If you think that's bad, try being a PvE tank with blocking nerfed and werewolf stamina regen nerfed. Another example of PvP whining screwing over PvE players.

@Pallmor I completely agree that those stamina nerfs are 100% even worse than stam sorcs, and I entirely support the movement against nerfing stamina regen while blocking.

Believe it or not, half the time i run double sword/board and from one blocker to another, this hurts PvP just as badly as PvE...Expect me over in those threads too fighting the good fight ^_^ I'm just as outraged about that as stam sorc treatment.

Egonieser · July 2015

CP5 wrote: »

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm not advocating for running away, but if they are going to remove all of our mobility we need something to compensate for it in combat.

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Part of me wants to feel bad for stamina sorcerers then I remember that they're MAGIC users and the feeling passes.

Gtfo go die in a fire, battle mages are an elder scrolls series favourite.

Yeah, battle mages in Oblivion were awesome. And used magic to do their thing. I know ZOS has turned stamina into a form of "green magicka" but it's never going to be perfect. And if you can simply make every class be like every other class then why have classes at all?

Flavor. A dk is durable, a templar is versatile* a nightblade is agile and a sorcerer is mobile. Take a nb and dk tank, both can tank but do it very differently. That is the point of classes, the method to how things are done, not an instant "This is how you must play" option.

I would disagree with the mobile part of it.
NB's can be far more mobile than sorcerers. Ever seen a NB with all the speedbuffs on? Can outrun practically any attempt of a sorcerer bolting around.

Jar_Ek · July 2015

*Sigh*

I don't understand how so many people can simply fail to understand that stamina sorcerers want to be able to compete the same as every other stamina class does. To do so stamina sorcerers would like certain passive and morph changes, but not at the expense of the magicka sorcerers. Thus stamina sorcerers would like morphs of lesser used magicka skills and passive changes to support stamina usage...

Really how is that having an effect on magicka sorcerers?!

Actually I think stamina sorcerers and ,maybe all classes would like a 3rd morph option for stamina for all abilities... and an alternative passive option as well. Maybe in update 2.x.

Cathexis · July 2015

@Jar_Ek from what I can do it has something to do with their concept of a mage being completely inflexible, and probably they are afraid of the added competition.

SugaComa · July 2015

@Cathexis sounds a lot like Nightblade .. Alot of their abilities are magic based and as a stamina build your forced to use actives from other skills and very few from the class lines ... So I'm confused as to how its any different ?

Pman85 · July 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

So sorcs pretty much just block, dodge, take cover, or run away? Do sorcs ever actually fight?

With our pets? Or with the very expensive spells that rely heavily on spell power for their damage?

dont you mean max magika? seriously though, i never played a sorc!

Cathexis · July 2015

SugaComa wrote: »

@Cathexis sounds a lot like Nightblade .. Alot of their abilities are magic based and as a stamina build your forced to use actives from other skills and very few from the class lines ... So I'm confused as to how its any different ?

@Sugacoma the only way I can convey the difference to you is if you try them both. The critical difference is that nightblades have utility abilities that allow them to compete at a 1vX level (far more effectively I might add)

If you look in the pts thread on stamina sorcs, erock25 has outlined the significant differences in stamina changes for each build in a neatly organized post.

CP5 · July 2015

Egonieser wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm not advocating for running away, but if they are going to remove all of our mobility we need something to compensate for it in combat.

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Part of me wants to feel bad for stamina sorcerers then I remember that they're MAGIC users and the feeling passes.

Gtfo go die in a fire, battle mages are an elder scrolls series favourite.

Yeah, battle mages in Oblivion were awesome. And used magic to do their thing. I know ZOS has turned stamina into a form of "green magicka" but it's never going to be perfect. And if you can simply make every class be like every other class then why have classes at all?

Flavor. A dk is durable, a templar is versatile* a nightblade is agile and a sorcerer is mobile. Take a nb and dk tank, both can tank but do it very differently. That is the point of classes, the method to how things are done, not an instant "This is how you must play" option.

I would disagree with the mobile part of it.
NB's can be far more mobile than sorcerers. Ever seen a NB with all the speedbuffs on? Can outrun practically any attempt of a sorcerer bolting around.

Exactly, what is the class defining characteristic that sets all sorcs apart from the other classes? Shield stacking is what they generally need to do, but I wouldn't call that their 'thing' nor would I want zos to balance around that.