Just Tested my Tank on PTS :(

Kupoking · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Rshidva wrote: »

When I do AA we only bring one healer, cause I don't need a healer until 5 axes and I heal during storm and stone atro.
On Hel Ra as a pure tank build I sometimes outdps some peeps.

Oh and btw, we jcompleted SO, stupid easy, as usual no need for extra tanks or any other stuffs.
Learn to Play guys and girls rather than whine.

So you mean to tell us all that the group you tank for brings 10 dps rather than 9, with you out dpsing some of those players, and you still get 5 axes?

You mean to tell us all that we have to learn to play when your group is getting 5 axes and you, as the tank, are out damaging others?

I just want to draw others attention to your testimony. I'm pretty sure you could get a skit on comedy central with your routine there.

You get 5 axes if your 10 dps do only 9k dps. Thats what we get when you tank on training runs for ppl who came in during f2p.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

[...] Dragonknights as always can still belt out Igneous Shields and other goodies in the Earthen Heart line .

You understand that 5% stamina returned is barely enough to cover getting hit by several mobs, right? I don't know if you've actually played a Dragonknight, but Helping Hands is hardly enough to inch my stamina up to be at all noticeable. Igneous shield is not a game changer like you seem to think. At best it's 30% extra healing when GDB is up. Considering I'm keeping other defense skills up I don't have a heck of a lot of magicka to use to spam.

Also, you keep saying you're talking to your buddies and people in game about these changes. Are you talking to hardcore l33t players who have everything on farm, all the gear they need, all the money the can acquire and able to switch out sporadically different gear sets and playstyles on the fly? The same people running around with ideal group compositions with Templars feeding them shards, and DPS able to pull 15K without breaking a sweat? No kidding they're not having a hard time. Try talking to the AVERAGE PLAYER, the ones who this change effect the most, and who feels most burdened by this. Because all the people I've talked to are having a frustrating time here. No, we don't have SO on farm, yes we HAVE TO PUG sometimes, and no, our DPS doesn't pull 15K+; if we can get 10K in a run that's awesome. NO, we're not running perfectly pruned groups. Yes, we have completed vDSA and our best scores were a laughable 5000 ish, but God Damnit, that was fun for us trying to get better. Now? Now I can't even tank wraiths in vCOH without them running around due to stamina loss. Now it's embarrassing.

Stop talking to your egotistical circle-jerk of friends and start asking average players playing with average people or PUGS and see if we're hunkey dorkey with this change. I promise you there's a large disconnect between the top players who this change hardly effects and the average player.

One post above yours, several minutes before you wrote, already had answered that first line, if you had even read a single word. I have talked to a large number of people in-game on the PTS and out... the couple of main complaint threads on this issue don't match up with what I'm hearing from them, at all, and are being vastly overblown. Frankly, if you're unwilling to even look at a picture and then ask if I've ever played a Dragonknight, there's nothing productive to be gained here when you conclude your "argument" of nothing but far-flung and irritated opinions, describing random players from zone chat, my contacts list, whispering people in my guild chats, and watching chat in those guilds as a juvenile term scoff at the idea of taking feedback from everyone, not just people griping or a handful of scoreboard runners that are concerned of having to potentially change their strategy a bit (as everyone else will, in any case, making it balanced on the competitive front) when drawing a conclusion. You talk rudely of constructive discussion being "egotistical", and yet, cannot put your own ego aside to even read any facts, opinions, or argument put forth but your own?

To be honest with you I've largely dismissed and or skim by what you say. You have an uncanny ability to write novels about absolutely nothing. Then there's this one from another tread where I started to skim past your tangents:

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

olemanwinter wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Did you know that the best tanks in the game aren't holding block and never have?

Not sure if serious.

That's what I can't believe, amongst other things, about what attorneyatlawl is saying. They claim to speak to good tanks in the game. They claim to tank. Then they claim that tanks have a compelling reason to use light attacks(they don't). It really is bizarre that they want to be pro-nerf with regards to part of the game that they clearly don't know much about as they mischaracterized something as simple as ultimate generation while tanking. It is also strange that the top tanks I know (current NA 1 in SO and top 5 in VDSA) continuously hold down block against bosses and on big pulls, but attorneyatlawl has spoken the only true, real, and good way that tanks should play and enjoy playing.

First pro-nerfers say all players are doing is holding block and then they say that players have never continuously held block. First it is that the PVE meta is boring and then it is that tanks are evolving their role, but just in ways that they don't like.

The pro-nerfers just can't make up their minds about what their discussion points are and why what they want is preferable compared to what others want.

Hopefully i will have some interviews in the next couple of days about what the best tanks in the game are doing and why they are doing it.

Please, have the basic social courtesy to stop trying to put words in others' mouths because not every last little detail was spelled out between the lines, which makes not only for tedious writing but boring reading. Look at the opposing viewpoints and think about what's being written. I'm saying that holding block down isn't mandatory, and that those who do will easily adjust (as most have also told me directly). Can you hold block down without paying attnetion now? Yep. Do some out of laziness and convenience? Yep. Do the majority of the ones I've spoken with, both in the guilds I'm in such as Order of Mundus, Nightfighters, and the many I am contacted by often enough covering the majority of the top leaderboard spots in the NA megaserver, feel that this change will have much impact at all on them? Absolutely not, is the overall feeling I have been getting from virtually all of them. A couple are/were concerned, and out of those they haven't voiced any concern of it being "too hard" or requiring a drastic change in how they tank. I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly, personally, but I do run the Trials frequently as well and am not only guilded with the top tanks on NA but also chat with a lot of the rest fairly regularly from both the PVE and PVP focused guilds in the game. Have fun out there .

A few may have issues with the adjustment as you seem to feel you will, but you'll catch up soon enough in any case to everyone else on that once you spend a week with it. The objective fact is that in ESO the tanking system is quite literally the simplest functional one you can create for an online game design including the second-simplest agro system (the most basic is to not have any forcible agro with even binary taunts as ESO utilizes and have it be based only on damage/healing totals in a table), and extremely easy to deal with as a result. Alongside that, the game's power allocation quotas allow the vast majority of tanking mechanics present in RPG titles to be ignored outright such as threat management, avoidance/mitigation, and mostly resource management on the PVE end. Subjectively, there's little way to argue that makes for a difficult tanking experience let alone one that provides compelling gameplay.

olemanwinter wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What if they're trying to improve the tanking (and subsequently whole PvE aspect) of the game by making this change?

I don't think anyone doubts they are TRYING to improve the game. That doesn't make it a good idea.

A change isn't necessarily positive just because it's motivated by good intentions.

There's yet to be any substantial argument as to why it would not be an improvement, and a whole host of reasons as to why it should be. As an offhand suggestion, you might find using even a basic combat log addon will help you notice what's happening during gameplay in PVP. Far be it from me to tell you how to play, but given that you had been calling out the Nirnhoned trait as the reasoning for your hits suffering a 90% reduction in damage against enemies, it'd probably be less frustrating to know what's actually happening . I wrote a brief introduction about how blocking works and its cost mechanics awhile ago if you're interested: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/170190/on-the-topic-of-permablocking-math-and-fiction

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke

I almost forgot that grimsfield is a bonafide video game developer. What is your new argument now that a game developer has stepped in the room?

Well he's not a developer of this game, is he?

Regardless, the whole point completely escaped you again.

What I meant to illustrate was the ignorance of people who claim they know a system & how it functions (or will function) better than the people who made it.

Without even knowing the full extent of incoming changes and how they function in practice.

I think this simple fact has been communicated quite a few times so far in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Instead of providing destructive criticism, simply demanding for dismantling of something you don't understand, you should be asking for more information, or testing the change yourself in PTS so you can leave feedback that isn't just ignorant assumptions.

At least personally, I already am pretty well aware of how it will play out from never having done it differently than will be optimal in the new patch , and many of the tanks I've spoken with haven't been either, with virtually all indicating they don't see any issue arising from it and being indifferent at worst to the change. However, complaining to not even have it put onto the test server whether there was concern with a real basis or not, is a very good example of what you called "destructive criticism". Instead of seeing how it works for them, they immediately have jumped to demanding it never be tested let alone live, because they assume it will be too difficult. That's how we ended up with world mobs that die in one hit while leveling veteran toons now, though. I'd rather not see trials/dungeons/any future arenas turn into the same relative level of difficulty .

In case you don't want to read your own diatribe, let me give you a hint to when I stopped reading you as an authority on tanking:

A couple are/were concerned, and out of those they haven't voiced any concern of it being "too hard" or requiring a drastic change in how they tank. I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly, personally, but I do run the Trials frequently as well and am not only guilded with the top tanks on NA but also chat with a lot of the rest fairly regularly from both the PVE and PVP focused guilds in the game. Have fun out there

I don't tank trials or vDSA regularly,

For a while a lot of what you wrote was pretty valid and I used a lot of what you said on the PTS within my power (using my own copied character) and the Igneous Shield spam does not work out as you seem to think: at least for me, currently. Same with a lot of other suggestions you provided. You do have a wry, self-satisfied way in which to communicate which was off-putting, but if we're going to get personal since you disregarded all else I said and went on the defense, plenty of what you way is more or less calling people out and your comments devolved to nit-picking apart real valid concerns as if you were an authority, or picking apart people like @Personofsecrets without any real substance. Yet you do it by producing so much word garbage that reading what you write become a painful endevour. I'd rather like to speak to people who do tank regularly, and I've constantly asked people who sling the "l2p" argument to give me suggestions and points but so far only one had bounced off ideas with me. Oh these forums, however, in public, in the view of thousands of readers I see a pretty healthy number of tanks (leaderboarded and otherwise) give real factual concern. That's worth something, no?

Also, at what point in your picture that you posted am I to assume you have tanked on that very character? ...

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

GhostShadows wrote: »

"the couple of main complaint threads on this issue don't match up with what I'm hearing from them, at all, and are being vastly overblown."
sume of this threads have more than 30 pages of players real expiriences and u came here saying: dont mind is all good my freinds told me so!!!
can u please go try tank pts and tell us ur Real expirience ? or then tell ur freind to came explain how they did it, but please dont came with this "ppl told me". for games this can be fine, for me at my age this looks to much like a kid post.

30 pages, 27 of which were made in that example you're citing, before the PTS was even available for testing. I already have shared my "real experience", but the people repeatedly posting and making those threads reach high page counts, such as yourself here

, simply dismiss them. Like I said.... "Frankly, if you're unwilling to even look at a picture and then ask if I've ever played a Dragonknight, there's nothing productive to be gained here when you conclude your "argument" of nothing but far-flung and irritated opinions" ... "You talk rudely of" (my) "being 'egotistical', and yet, cannot put your own ego aside to even read any facts, opinions, or argument put forth but your own?". And still, you've yet to even state your problem other than it being (paraphrasing) "too hard" to even discuss, although I've discussed why I feel it isn't numerous times in these threads recently. One last time, in hopes of an actual reply instead of more personal insults:

"I'm sorry to hear you're frustrated about needing to change how you used to play some... but there's no need to be sarcastic and insulting while insisting the only reason you feel it needs to be scrapped is because "it's too hard". I would be more than glad to talk about most anything you could post, constructively... but personal snipes don't really foster much discussion, and you haven't stated much of anything specific yet as to why you feel it's too difficult."

Rshidva wrote: »

Dude stop being a ***:
That comment was towards the idiots who where saying : hey mate, just block the heavy attack. or "man, blocking is for noobs" or "bro' srsly just heavy attack to get your stam back"

Citing out of context has no rethoric value

The point is moot

I agree... and nor do personal insults and snipes have any value in the argument people keep making of it being too hard to do.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Rshidva wrote: »

When I do AA we only bring one healer, cause I don't need a healer until 5 axes and I heal during storm and stone atro.
On Hel Ra as a pure tank build I sometimes outdps some peeps.

Oh and btw, we jcompleted SO, stupid easy, as usual no need for extra tanks or any other stuffs.
Learn to Play guys and girls rather than whine.

So you mean to tell us all that the group you tank for brings 10 dps rather than 9, with you out dpsing some of those players, and you still get 5 axes?

You mean to tell us all that we have to learn to play when your group is getting 5 axes and you, as the tank, are out damaging others?

I just want to draw others attention to your testimony. I'm pretty sure you could get a skit on comedy central with your routine there.

You get 5 axes if your 10 dps do only 9k dps. Thats what we get when you tank on training runs for ppl who came in during f2p.

Five axes should never be happening other than training runs. So much for being a "tanking authority" by quoting youtube videos to confirm what I'd posted, and then claiming it somehow countered it.

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

To be honest with you I've largely dismissed and or skim by what you say. You have an uncanny ability to write novels about absolutely nothing. Then there's this one from another tread where I started to skim past your tangents:
For a while a lot of what you wrote was pretty valid and I used a lot of what you said on the PTS within my power (using my own copied character) and the Igneous Shield spam does not work out as you seem to think: at least for me, currently. Same with a lot of other suggestions you provided. You do have a wry, self-satisfied way in which to communicate which was off-putting, but if we're going to get personal since you disregarded all else I said and went on the defense, plenty of what you way is more or less calling people out and your comments devolved to nit-picking apart real valid concerns as if you were an authority, or picking apart people like @Personofsecrets without any real substance. Yet you do it by producing so much word garbage that reading what you write become a painful endevour. I'd rather like to speak to people who do tank regularly, and I've constantly asked people who sling the "l2p" argument to give me suggestions and points but so far only one had bounced off ideas with me. Oh these forums, however, in public, in the view of thousands of readers I see a pretty healthy number of tanks (leaderboarded and otherwise) give real factual concern. That's worth something, no?

Also, at what point in your picture that you posted am I to assume you have tanked on that very character? ...

Thanks for being honest, at least @tpanisiakb16_ESO ... that was no "tangent" though: it was in direct reply on-topic to someone yanking random sentences out of context, and then making personal attacks, claiming things were said that had not been, and so on. If you took the time to read, you might have realized that. I don't care, particularly, if you are offended because you feel the way I write, as I have since I was a kid, even, is "wry" and "self-satisfied". I stay matter of fact and stick to the points... and you feel that tackling the facts involved in tanking is somehow nit-picking, when you one sentence prior complain about the way someone phrases their sentences?

@Personofsecrets repeatedly made personal snipes and insults, so yes, I did get a slight amount of frustration from that, but I continued to talk about tanking facts and mechanics, while instead of discussing anything as to why he felt X or Y might impact it, he continued to either post a video link stating the same thing I had written in the posts he was quoting, and then circle between stating he agreed what I had written was correct (just with a different spin then brought on by his bias or opinion), and claiming it was wrong... only to then say it was right again a post or two later. I write at length because otherwise, people ignore how it works at all, such as you are doing, and it devolves into mudslinging as you are doing as well. Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even

.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2015

OGLezard wrote: »

@Halfwitte here is the answer to your problem....enjoy

link here

http://i.imgur.com/GIgAOoF.png

Other than the 5p it isn't a good tanking set for pve; also PVE players aren't going to want to farm stones for that.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets repeatedly made personal snipes and insults, so yes, I did get a slight amount of frustration from that, but I continued to talk about tanking facts and mechanics, while instead of discussing anything as to why he felt X or Y might impact it, he continued to either post a video link stating the same thing I had written in the posts he was quoting, and then circle between stating he agreed what I had written was correct (just with a different spin then brought on by his bias or opinion), and claiming it was wrong... only to then say it was right again a post or two later. I write at length because otherwise, people ignore how it works at all, such as you are doing, and it devolves into mudslinging as you are doing as well. Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even .

Yes, I will call you wrong when you are wrong.

You continued to discuss "facts" and mechanics by repeating the same disinformation about tanking ultimate generation.

I'll go ahead and post what you are referring to so that everyone is very clear about it.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

GhostShadows · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

GhostShadows wrote: »

"the couple of main complaint threads on this issue don't match up with what I'm hearing from them, at all, and are being vastly overblown."
sume of this threads have more than 30 pages of players real expiriences and u came here saying: dont mind is all good my freinds told me so!!!
can u please go try tank pts and tell us ur Real expirience ? or then tell ur freind to came explain how they did it, but please dont came with this "ppl told me". for games this can be fine, for me at my age this looks to much like a kid post.

30 pages, 27 of which were made in that example you're citing, before the PTS was even available for testing. I already have shared my "real experience", but the people repeatedly posting and making those threads reach high page counts, such as yourself here , simply dismiss them. Like I said.... "Frankly, if you're unwilling to even look at a picture and then ask if I've ever played a Dragonknight, there's nothing productive to be gained here when you conclude your "argument" of nothing but far-flung and irritated opinions" ... "You talk rudely of" (my) "being 'egotistical', and yet, cannot put your own ego aside to even read any facts, opinions, or argument put forth but your own?". And still, you've yet to even state your problem other than it being (paraphrasing) "too hard" to even discuss, although I've discussed why I feel it isn't numerous times in these threads recently. One last time, in hopes of an actual reply instead of more personal insults:

"I'm sorry to hear you're frustrated about needing to change how you used to play some... but there's no need to be sarcastic and insulting while insisting the only reason you feel it needs to be scrapped is because "it's too hard". I would be more than glad to talk about most anything you could post, constructively... but personal snipes don't really foster much discussion, and you haven't stated much of anything specific yet as to why you feel it's too difficult."

Rshidva wrote: »

Dude stop being a ***:
That comment was towards the idiots who where saying : hey mate, just block the heavy attack. or "man, blocking is for noobs" or "bro' srsly just heavy attack to get your stam back"

Citing out of context has no rethoric value

The point is moot

I agree... and nor do personal insults and snipes have any value in the argument people keep making of it being too hard to do.

ur the 2nd person i will start to ignore here, i came here to see real players expiriences and how they doing to finish the things, not to listen ppl say i need l2p or that i will get used or to go "pratice" like i wasnt registered in this site mouths before beta came out and pluing the game since beta.
if u cant tell me wat skills u use to finish a vdsa or other hard thing without depend to much oon ur party (because not all of us play with top player) u bether dont talk to me.
Saying ur freinds are telling is all fine, dont bring me nothing good to learn

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets repeatedly made personal snipes and insults, so yes, I did get a slight amount of frustration from that, but I continued to talk about tanking facts and mechanics, while instead of discussing anything as to why he felt X or Y might impact it, he continued to either post a video link stating the same thing I had written in the posts he was quoting, and then circle between stating he agreed what I had written was correct (just with a different spin then brought on by his bias or opinion), and claiming it was wrong... only to then say it was right again a post or two later. I write at length because otherwise, people ignore how it works at all, such as you are doing, and it devolves into mudslinging as you are doing as well. Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even .

Yes, I will call you wrong when you are wrong.

You continued to discuss "facts" and mechanics by repeating the same disinformation about tanking ultimate generation.

I'll go ahead and post what you are referring to so that everyone is very clear about it.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

Thanks for showing once more that I was correct. Even your video link, in a situational fight at that, shows that just mashing block doesn't achieve full ultimate generation potential as I said. Once more... what is your actual complaint with the changes? Instead of continually jabbing at anyone who disagrees, you've yet to answer that as far as I've seen even once. Additionally, nearly as many posters in the various threads have supported the changes, which keeps being glossed over in favor of ignoring anything not suiting your narratives.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

GhostShadows wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

GhostShadows wrote: »

"the couple of main complaint threads on this issue don't match up with what I'm hearing from them, at all, and are being vastly overblown."
sume of this threads have more than 30 pages of players real expiriences and u came here saying: dont mind is all good my freinds told me so!!!
can u please go try tank pts and tell us ur Real expirience ? or then tell ur freind to came explain how they did it, but please dont came with this "ppl told me". for games this can be fine, for me at my age this looks to much like a kid post.

30 pages, 27 of which were made in that example you're citing, before the PTS was even available for testing. I already have shared my "real experience", but the people repeatedly posting and making those threads reach high page counts, such as yourself here , simply dismiss them. Like I said.... "Frankly, if you're unwilling to even look at a picture and then ask if I've ever played a Dragonknight, there's nothing productive to be gained here when you conclude your "argument" of nothing but far-flung and irritated opinions" ... "You talk rudely of" (my) "being 'egotistical', and yet, cannot put your own ego aside to even read any facts, opinions, or argument put forth but your own?". And still, you've yet to even state your problem other than it being (paraphrasing) "too hard" to even discuss, although I've discussed why I feel it isn't numerous times in these threads recently. One last time, in hopes of an actual reply instead of more personal insults:

"I'm sorry to hear you're frustrated about needing to change how you used to play some... but there's no need to be sarcastic and insulting while insisting the only reason you feel it needs to be scrapped is because "it's too hard". I would be more than glad to talk about most anything you could post, constructively... but personal snipes don't really foster much discussion, and you haven't stated much of anything specific yet as to why you feel it's too difficult."

Rshidva wrote: »

Dude stop being a ***:
That comment was towards the idiots who where saying : hey mate, just block the heavy attack. or "man, blocking is for noobs" or "bro' srsly just heavy attack to get your stam back"

Citing out of context has no rethoric value

The point is moot

I agree... and nor do personal insults and snipes have any value in the argument people keep making of it being too hard to do.

ur the 2nd person i will start to ignore here, i came here to see real players expiriences and how they doing to finish the things, not to listen ppl say i need l2p or that i will get used or to go "pratice" like i wasnt registered in this site mouths before beta came out and pluing the game since beta.
if u cant tell me wat skills u use to finish a vdsa or other hard thing without depend to much oon ur party (because not all of us play with top player) u bether dont talk to me.
Saying ur freinds are telling is all fine, dont bring me nothing good to learn

Actually, I've made a bunch of posts so far discussing the class and weapon skills you can be using as well as tactics, as well as a new thread even. Posting links to your own threads in these discussions is against the forum rules, so I haven't directly linked to them to abide by that. Don't mistake that for not having written it.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Personofsecrets repeatedly made personal snipes and insults, so yes, I did get a slight amount of frustration from that, but I continued to talk about tanking facts and mechanics, while instead of discussing anything as to why he felt X or Y might impact it, he continued to either post a video link stating the same thing I had written in the posts he was quoting, and then circle between stating he agreed what I had written was correct (just with a different spin then brought on by his bias or opinion), and claiming it was wrong... only to then say it was right again a post or two later. I write at length because otherwise, people ignore how it works at all, such as you are doing, and it devolves into mudslinging as you are doing as well. Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even .

Yes, I will call you wrong when you are wrong.

You continued to discuss "facts" and mechanics by repeating the same disinformation about tanking ultimate generation.

I'll go ahead and post what you are referring to so that everyone is very clear about it.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Also attorney, when you accuse someone of putting words in your mouth, it is helpful when you point out what words those are. Saying that someone is misrepresenting others only works when you can show what is misrepresented. Sort of like how I pointed out your misrepresentation of ultimate generation.

@Personofsecrets, Ultimate generation does require you to do more than just hold block and use damage skills. You can verify this in-game easily enough for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yacj4kIQRhM

Thanks for showing once more that I was correct. Even your video link, in a situational fight at that, shows that just mashing block doesn't achieve full ultimate generation potential as I said. Once more... what is your actual complaint with the changes? Instead of continually jabbing at anyone who disagrees, you've yet to answer that as far as I've seen even once. Additionally, nearly as many posters in the various threads have supported the changes, which keeps being glossed over in favor of ignoring anything not suiting your narratives.

See that everyone. A 2 second difference in ult generation over a single 60 second test 'proves' Attorneys point about how tanks should already be releasing block.

Maybe you didn't bother to read some of the reasons that I dislike the change before. I will go ahead and outline some of them again.

1. Eric Wrobel was incorrect when stating that tanking is boring and uninteractive. A change resulting from an incorrect premise is itself incorrect. I have my own AA and VDSA guide that outlines some of the cool and interactive ways that tanks can play and think about tanking.

2. A core philosophy of what the developers want and believe about the game is that players can bring their PVE gear into PVP and be just as effective. The stamina regeneration nerf basically means that PVE tanks wont be able to play in PVP as a tank and that goes against being able to bring PVE gear into PVP.

3. Some say that the change will make the game more skill intensive. That thought isn't necessarily correct because although there are new skills introduced into the game, there are undoubtedly skills that will also be diminished. Maybe, for example, some players no longer have the skill of keeping up heroic slash because they don't have stamina to use it in the first place.

4. Some say that players will have to time their blocks. This isn't always able to be the case though due things such as latency, FPS, or even facing off against multiple enemies at the same time that don't have their attack pattern perfectly synched to the times that a tank would be able to let down their block for a stamina regeneration tick. That is presupposing that players can even know and plan around when stamina regeneration ticks are about to occur.

5. Some say that players can adapt with new ways gearing and playing. This isn't necessarily the case though because there wasn't anything significant added to the patch that would help tanks do this. Werewolf regeneration was nerfd, the serpent stone isn't that great, and the Black Rose set isn't necessarily better at preserving stamina than the current Histbark set is. Templar spears can be used every 20 seconds, doesn't make up for the stamina deficit of blocking, and can't be present for every tank that wants to play.

There are some of the reasons that have been discussed. Don't bother to counter them, just call me a name and insist that I am proving your points.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even .

Ah, see, at no point did I declare "thousands" of tanks are complaining. I said this:

Oh these forums, however, in public, in the view of thousands of readers I see a pretty healthy number of tanks (leaderboarded and otherwise) give real factual concern. That's worth something, no?

Since I need to clarify now lest you further misquote me, I simply am stating that in this forum alone are players complaining and / or giving real genuine feedback in the VIEW OF THOUSANDS of other players / lurkers. This, to me, is a hell of a lot more tangible than the people who you claim to be speaking with in-game.

To bring this all back to head since you're going on the defense again, I really wanted to point out that you keep saying you're talking to your guild and buddies and so on, but do they represent the average player, or are these people from guilds that have everything on farm? This is not a stab at you or ego, this is a real question.

Outside of my (admittedly) frustrated quips in your direction otherwise, the post I originally made was still worth something to consider and still worthy of factual conversation. Instead you ignore all of that and went off in defensive mode, which I can see you keep doing. Shouldn't you be attempting to derail those types of tangent instead of encouraging it? I spent the better part of the last big thread largely ignoring what you wrote because of your tone which, whether or not you realize this, tends to instigate conversation in a negative way.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Go count the number of people who have actually posted complaining about these changes, and you'll find it totals to no more than a few dozen at most: a far cry from your statement of "thousands", and little more than I have talked to personally in-game even .

Ah, see, at no point did I declare "thousands" of tanks are complaining. I said this:

Oh these forums, however, in public, in the view of thousands of readers I see a pretty healthy number of tanks (leaderboarded and otherwise) give real factual concern. That's worth something, no?

Since I need to clarify now lest you further misquote me, I simply am stating that in this forum alone are players complaining and / or giving real genuine feedback in the VIEW OF THOUSANDS of other players / lurkers. This, to me, is a hell of a lot more tangible than the people who you claim to be speaking with in-game.

To bring this all back to head since you're going on the defense again, I really wanted to point out that you keep saying you're talking to your guild and buddies and so on, but do they represent the average player, or are these people from guilds that have everything on farm? This is not a stab at you or ego, this is a real question.

Outside of my (admittedly) frustrated quips in your direction otherwise, the post I originally made was still worth something to consider and still worthy of factual conversation. Instead you ignore all of that and went off in defensive mode, which I can see you keep doing. Shouldn't you be attempting to derail those types of tangent instead of encouraging it? I spent the better part of the last big thread largely ignoring what you wrote because of your tone which, whether or not you realize this, tends to instigate conversation in a negative way.

To clarify, the "thousands" remark was based on your extrapolation

. You can easily make the same judgment as there have been similar numbers of people actually posting in support of the changes, if that is your benchmark.

I've been on "the defense" exactly to try to railroad the conversation back to the topic each time, mentioning the tanking issues, asking anyone I've replied to nearly always for their thoughts as to why they said what they had, and so on

.

The people I have spoken with include both experienced players in guilds like Nightfighters and Order of Mundus, to nonaffiliated people I know are extremely talented from playing alongside them, and all the way around to watching zone chats, whispering tanks in dungeon runs, and observing incidental conversations that I wasn't involved in. I stated this before, but I fully understand that you hadn't seen that so I'm more than happy to restate it

.

On the topic of my tone, I sincerely do apologize if it comes off poorly. My personality tends towards levelheaded-ness and keeping my own spin out of things when talking about specific facts, then saying them after presenting the info. I get now that you had felt that way, and I genuinely appreciate this post to get things back on track. I also want to link this in, as well, which is a thread by a member of nightfighters and an experienced, frequently playing, tank. She states the feeling that tanking had been trivially easy until now in the OP, and that it has swung to too difficult now. I'd suspect the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. That statement is made off of one night of trying the changes so far. Think back to how much adjustment there was after the last major changeup, patch 1.6. That is why I've encouraged reserving judgment and thoroughly testing the changes, for everyone

.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2090967/#Comment_2090967

Halfwitte · July 2015

Still waiting to hear from ZOS regarding their reasons for making the 0 stamina regeneration while blocking change. A reason that's a PVE reason not a PVP reason and one that doesn't involve their philosophy on fun. Fun being the operative word here since everyone has their own unique ideas on fun. I want to know why it had to be fixed. Tired of listening to Community Ambassadors (blow off people <== Not the 1%, stir the pot, post lots of

, posting codex's for posts most of us don't have time to read or care to read) and effectively blather away legitimate concerns regarding the change or putting off the people who don't want the change implemented regardless of all the new changes that are purportedly going to make everything better.

Some of us don't want the change end of story, because for me it makes tanking boring turns it into a stamina micro management mini game. I am not the 1%. I am not on a leader board. I wasn't the first to do anything. I am a paying customer that could have cared less about the forums until they had their twitch feed regarding this change and I could no longer stay silent. I don't need to post options, because it's not a legitimate change. No change required since it's not broken. I can tank just fine the way things are currently. Vet DSA is plenty challenging for my current group the way it is now. My group just completed it week ago by ourselves no help from the 1% or Youtube or anyone else. Developed our own strategies for each round and helped each other improve and used better communication. You should have heard the cheering on TS when the last boss went down and there was only the tank and 1 dps still standing executing his heart out with the tank keeping him alive. We were so excited until we hit the loot box. If everyone wants to be angry at something it should be the RNG not each other on the forums.

Why are they making the change and then introducing gear to reverse the change? Why should I have to change my gear or play style to have what I already have without the change?

When people say tanks shouldn't be able to do the things they do and hold block and threat and survive I call non sense that's exactly what they're supposed to do which is Tank and if you're the 1% doing all that in your underwear without a healer than good on you (post an instructional video while you're at it), but the rest of us aren't there and we don't want you screwing up what we have now, because you're bored and the rest of us are not. Find other ways to get your kicks leaving the rest of us out of it.

We should agree everyone here posting loves this game and has their reasons for liking certain aspects of it and ZOS is changing an aspect I love and I don't agree with it and I am fighting against this change, because I feel it doesn't need to change. ZOS needs to know one of their paying customers/Fans is not ok with it and my constructive feedback is leave it the way it is right now on live. I have tested it and I don't want this change.

Feedback given.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Did some PVE tonight. It was suggested to me that I use my trials set up for a dungeon run. I did and felt, basically, like I was unnecessary weight.

Thank you stamina regen nerf.

GhostShadows · July 2015

It seems to me that all these nurfs with ressource management is purely financial .
I was one of those who suggested three pots in crown store and I must say I spend more crowns than I get to be subscribed only and only on that item , so I'm free to say that all these nurfs in ressource management are purely financial and not a matter of Fun of players.
WW passive removed, sorc bolt get more expencive roll dodge more expencive, all this make u eat a pot with more frequency.
i hunderstand the game is a busines, (i run a busines myself) but dont trow to my face that nerf my char or my way to play is for my fun.
run a busines also is keep costumers hapy, and if u dont fix latency problems this change will make many costumers angry.
i m still subed will keep been if this go live and i dont mind to suport the company wille i enjoy the game, but u realy should fix ur latency problem before this change.

simontheriault1b16_ESO · July 2015

I have two different tank build and I regularly tank in end-game content. I may not be the best tank around but I regularly run Pledges, Dsa, VCOA and VDSA. I feel like OP when tanking. If the changes are going to live, I recycle both my tanks into something else. Officially retiring from tanking. I really hate the new changes. I would like to give away my tanking gear but it's bound