Why Bolt Escape is now Obsolete in 1.7

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

Makkir wrote: »

The reason I am not OK with the BE changes is they are forcing casters in dresses in melee range for combat. The other classes have gap closers, and current Sorcs have useless defenses against physical damage. I can't recall the new v16 armor set coming that is light armor with physical defense passives...but I will likely have to resort to that just to survive in melee range.

Thank you!!!!! you actually get exactly what im talking about! Light Armor casters are being forced into melee range and even with the damage reduction, its not viable as Light Armor isn't meant for that. Not everyone wants to invest everything into shields.

Tonnopesce · July 2015

Aquanova wrote: »

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

From what I've seen in IC, sorcs aren't suffering at all and bolt escape is still very useful. Neither vampire mist or invisibility potions actually fill the same niche as a teleport - misting vampires are still easier to chase down then sorcs and like you mentioned yourself...invisibility can be countered by detection potions or magelight.

I agree. I saw Sorcs easily escape out of danger with bolt escape on the pts. At least in IC. Idk about the rest cyrodill since we're all really trying to test out IC. All I can say is Sorc's can still bolt to a safe distance in IC, even after doing alot of damage. It only takes 2 BE to get to a safe area, and by safe, I mean behind NPC's ( who are quite formidable even for trash mobs )that you as the pursuer will have to either sneak past ( meaning the Sorc can regen for round 2 ) or you rush past and pull mistakenly to your detriment, since they only attack players who either attacked them or wandered too close.

It was my tatcic of the day when ganked . I was just BE tru a group of mobs and back so the mobs where aggro my enemies and kill them in two shots ( and i was getting their stones).

Dracane · July 2015

They want you to use bolt escape 1 time, to get out of dangerous situations. We all know, this is not enough in most cases.

They should improve this idea. They can do so by changing a few things:

-First of, increase the range by 5 or 10 meters. I actually want it to be so, that melees can't just gap close right after you've blinked. So 10 meters would be more reasonable.

-Increase the stun duration by 0,5 seconds, increase the damage of streak.

I agree with OP, that bolt escape doesn't deserve a slot on any Sorcerers bar. Blinking 1 time is not enough, neither is 2 times. 3 times already starts the downfall of your Magicka pool.

ZOS, if you don't want us to use blink multiple times, then at least make the 1 time cast as usefull as possible

Ezareth · July 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As for damage shields, its a forgone conclusion that Hardened Ward and others will most likely be re-adjusted (I'll be suprised if they are not) that makes the other options more attractive.

ZOS added an armor set that allows a player to destroy shield stackers, with this in place there is no reason to further downgrade the effectiveness of shields. What they could do is remove shield stacking, but not nerfing individual shields.

The set is bad and there's a thread on why it's bad. You should read it.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote:

The fact blocking Crushing Shock is counted as blocking 3 attacks, just further boosts the skill

If this is happening it's a bug, and you should test it and report it if true. Block cost has an internal cooldown, so three attacks that hit at the same time should only trigger it once.

When was this added? In my experience crushing shock has drained my stamina 3 times as fast if I dont absorb/reflect it.

As far as this post goes I don't agree at all. Bolt Escape is still extremely useful although I won't run it on 3 bars any more. Sorcs are going to become the new "Turret" class. Stand in mines and spam crushing/shock overload and spam shields which I'm finding more and more at the top end of players on live right now are getting absurdly large.

For players who want similar mobility for less cost, try boundless storm + bolt escape + sprint in medium armor.

Aquanova · July 2015

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

From what I've seen in IC, sorcs aren't suffering at all and bolt escape is still very useful. Neither vampire mist or invisibility potions actually fill the same niche as a teleport - misting vampires are still easier to chase down then sorcs and like you mentioned yourself...invisibility can be countered by detection potions or magelight.

I agree. I saw Sorcs easily escape out of danger with bolt escape on the pts. At least in IC. Idk about the rest cyrodill since we're all really trying to test out IC. All I can say is Sorc's can still bolt to a safe distance in IC, even after doing alot of damage. It only takes 2 BE to get to a safe area, and by safe, I mean behind NPC's ( who are quite formidable even for trash mobs )that you as the pursuer will have to either sneak past ( meaning the Sorc can regen for round 2 ) or you rush past and pull mistakenly to your detriment, since they only attack players who either attacked them or wandered too close.

It was my tatcic of the day when ganked . I was just BE tru a group of mobs and back so the mobs where aggro my enemies and kill them in two shots ( and i was getting their stones).

Believe me. It wasn't just you. Good tactic though

Dracane · July 2015

Okay, blink 7 times in a row. Then the people chasing you will have catched up within a few seconds and then ? You die.
Because you are Out of Magicka and can't continue blinking, can't use shields and can't attack.

Bfish22090 · July 2015

I can get over 5k regen with my high elf vamp sorc wearing lich set. This nerf means I can cast 10 instead of 20

Kaliki · July 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I agree with OP, that bolt escape doesn't deserve a slot on any Sorcerers bar. Blinking 1 time is not enough, neither is 2 times. 3 times already starts the downfall of your Magicka pool.

This is an escape skill. The whole point is that getting away has to be costly or otherwise you could always get away, which you are not supposed to as it would be unfair to other classes who cannot get away at all. It would make fighting a sorcerer pointless (which it kind of is on live – a huge waste of time).
You can still always get away just by streaking past a group of enemies so no one can follow you. As a Templar I'd even take streak 2-3 more nerfs from now.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

Stop reading after the 3rd sentence but my replie is the same. BE does in no way ever EVER need a buff ever again. It has finally started to become a balanced skill instead of cowards tatic.

Ezareth · July 2015

Bfish22090 wrote: »

I can get over 5k regen with my high elf vamp sorc wearing lich set. This nerf means I can cast 10 instead of 20

You wont cast close to 10 because the 10th bolt will cost over 10,000 magicka, the 9th 9300 magicka etc....and that is with the 100 CPs into magician, 7/7 light armor and seducer set.

uso245 · July 2015

Honestly not much has changed from my build to begin with, I guess bolt does cost a little more if you spam it but I primarily use my as a stun (streak) or to catch up to someone. Now people say Vampire mist is better and where you are entitled to your opinion I can't stand staying in mist for its duration when I am already in range to drop some heavy dots on my opponent. I normally fight as a close range/los build to begin with so honestly this latest update has been mostly good for me. I also love the fact you gotta watch out for the npc bosses strolling around I saw a group trying to zerg DC side and aggro'd one of the Barons which turned around and started beating them down I quickly bolted over and dropped dots just to make sure they didn't have a surviving chance.

All and all this patch tests survivability which originally was easy mode with spam bolt escapes. I personally didn't use mine that much in the extent and I'm really glad that this game requires a more methodical mind when going around IC.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

The turret Class don't sound appealing to me @Ezareth

All i see out of Streak is it makes my enemy immune to Rune Prison and Frags knockdown for 5-6 secs. in return for a 1.5 sec stun and very low damage...99% of the time your better off not even CC breaking Streak and just letting it expire to get the immunity and save the stamina.

when they changed Streak to a Stun from a Disorient they ruined the only synergy combo the Sorc had with its limited hard CC.

When Streak was a disorient, it was possible to Streak and Proc a Frag, Fire the Frag and then finish your downed opponent with Mage's Wrath for a nice 3 hit combo like Nightblades do with their skills everyday and have been for over a year.

Now you Streak through your opponent, he is immune to your Frag knockdown and will dodge your Mage's Wrath, Synergy dead...Sorcs have no synergy at all now.....

its shocking how many people don't realize this (not saying you don't, just in general) everyone is so focused on the teleporting and movement and missing this very big part. They killed what little class synergy Sorc's had with their class skills considering the Sorc's limited hard CC class options.

Sure standing inside Daedric Mines and spamming Crushing Shock/Overload may be a very good playstyle, but i don't find that style fun as a caster Sorc.

If i want kite i am going to be stuck in Med Armor lots of Boundless Storm and at that point i might as well be a Nightblade. I can dodge all single target spells with Cloak(including Ultimates), my class skills actually have synergy and make sense to string together, the choice before between Streak and BOL before was either protection to cast or offensive Stun Streak + Frag + Mage';s Wrath Combo, the Streak Synergy is gone now, and casting behind BOL is no longer viable.

Sorc's will still be playable, but with hardly any class skill synergy, and increasing costs i'll be better off with a Nightblade for solo and small group roaming.

As always though i appreciate your insights Ez and everything you share with community here! im just bummed that my kite style just don't seem anywhere near as good anymore and i don't like being pigeonholed into a role i don't want.

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As for damage shields, its a forgone conclusion that Hardened Ward and others will most likely be re-adjusted (I'll be suprised if they are not) that makes the other options more attractive.

ZOS added an armor set that allows a player to destroy shield stackers, with this in place there is no reason to further downgrade the effectiveness of shields. What they could do is remove shield stacking, but not nerfing individual shields.

The set is bad and there's a thread on why it's bad. You should read it.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote:

The fact blocking Crushing Shock is counted as blocking 3 attacks, just further boosts the skill

If this is happening it's a bug, and you should test it and report it if true. Block cost has an internal cooldown, so three attacks that hit at the same time should only trigger it once.

Crushing Shock has a slight stagger to when all three attacks hit at once if you watch someones health closely.

Francescolg · July 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

If its just an escape skill, then why nerf the escape part of it?
(...)
Yes i tested these very scenarios last night extensively..3 secs would be fair, 1.5 forget about it.

*related to Ball of Lightning

Again: To get away, 1,5 seconds suffice for the moment that you port away, as in the same moment you get out of spell range, if being attacked by a DD spell/projectile!

If the ball of lighting stays longer then 1-2 seconds, you can (ab)use this skill for complete control(defense) of DD spells/projectiles by simply porting forward and backward and staying near an active ball of lightning.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

Oh and even though the cost increase stinks, I could live with it if the Balls were 3 secs instead of 1.5.

I rarely ever casted Ball of Lighting more then 3 times in a row in combat anyways, unless i was running from a whole zerg.

There is no doubt Sorc's can be harder to kill due to the reduced damage and the damage shield stacking thing.

Francescolg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

If its just an escape skill, then why nerf the escape part of it?
(...)
Yes i tested these very scenarios last night extensively..3 secs would be fair, 1.5 forget about it.

*related to Ball of Lightning

Again: To get away, 1,5 seconds suffice for the moment that you port away, as in the same moment you get out of spell range, if being attacked by a DD spell/projectile!

If the ball of lighting stays longer then 1-2 seconds, you can (ab)use this skill for complete control(defense) of DD spells/projectiles by simply porting forward and backward and staying near an active ball of lightning.

Only the 1st Ball ever actually works...if you cast BOL more then once, the 2nd and 3rd balls do not work, and the 1st ball only works if your standing close to it.

As for abuse, your sayings its OK that Crushing Shock users can spam an instant cast skill that shuts down every single skill in the game with a cast time is OK, but having a 3 sec BOL isn't? a 3 sec Ball would actually make it balanced instead of lopsided in favor of Crushing Shock that is already powerful, the last thing Crushing Shock needed was another buff.

Joy_Division · July 2015

I play a sorc and spent a lot of time in the IC.

Hate to say it, but sorcs are in a very good position at the moment.

Sure, I can only streak 6 or 7 times before running out of mana, but that was not how I used the skill nor was it ever intended to be used that way. More often than not I was able to use bolt escape, and only bolt escape, to elude attackers. ATM light armor sorcs are quite tanky (though once people figure out the best damage builds I am unsure it will stay that way) and still have mobility that DKs and Templars must die in order to get.

Generally I not a fan of abilities that give out unavoidable CC and I always felt that AOE auto CC + damage + ultimate + escape was way too strong. Streak is still AOE, still stuns people who are blocking (which they won't be in 1.7), and is still mobility; if you can't see the value of this skill you are soooooooooooooooo biased and that's is all that needs to be said.

As far as ball of lightning, I always thought the complaints about this skill were overstated. I have a friend who is a very good sorc player tell me they thought Ball of Lightning was OP because it shut down magic builds. BUT ... he opted for the streak morph

OK, ball of lightning OP. Sure ....... Ball of Lightning did zero against stamina users and that it a very real trade off considering this is the "defensive" morph and many of the players you are trying to defend against are stam builds. If this is going to protect me against a single magic projectile (1.5 seconds is roughly the same as global cooldown), I am taking streak even though I primarily use this skill defensively.

So while I agree the Ball of Lightning morph is obsolete, the streak skill is still an excellent morph that offers good versatility of damage, CC, and mobility that just about every sorcerer, which is still a very good class, will put on their bars and use effectively.

Ezareth · July 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The turret Class don't sound appealing to me @Ezareth

All i see out of Streak is it makes my enemy immune to Rune Prison and Frags knockdown for 5-6 secs. in return for a 1.5 sec stun and very low damage...99% of the time your better off not even CC breaking Streak and just letting it expire to get the immunity and save the stamina.

when they changed Streak to a Stun from a Disorient they ruined the only synergy combo the Sorc had with its limited hard CC.

When Streak was a disorient, it was possible to Streak and Proc a Frag, Fire the Frag and then finish your downed opponent with Mage's Wrath for a nice 3 hit combo like Nightblades do with their skills everyday and have been for over a year.

Now you Streak through your opponent, he is immune to your Frag knockdown and will dodge your Mage's Wrath, Synergy dead...Sorcs have no synergy at all now.....

its shocking how many people don't realize this (not saying you don't, just in general) everyone is so focused on the teleporting and movement and missing this very big part. They killed what little class synergy Sorc's had with their class skills considering the Sorc's limited hard CC class options.

Sure standing inside Daedric Mines and spamming Crushing Shock/Overload may be a very good playstyle, but i don't find that style fun as a caster Sorc.

If i want kite i am going to be stuck in Med Armor lots of Boundless Storm and at that point i might as well be a Nightblade. I can dodge all single target spells with Cloak(including Ultimates), my class skills actually have synergy and make sense to string together, the choice before between Streak and BOL before was either protection to cast or offensive Stun Streak + Frag + Mage';s Wrath Combo, the Streak Synergy is gone now, and casting behind BOL is no longer viable.

Sorc's will still be playable, but with hardly any class skill synergy, and increasing costs i'll be better off with a Nightblade for solo and small group roaming.

As always though i appreciate your insights Ez and everything you share with community here! im just bummed that my kite style just don't seem anywhere near as good anymore and i don't like being pigeonholed into a role i don't want.

It doesn't appeal to me either but most players are going to break free of streak if they can just like any other CC you hit them with.

The real reason you'll use streak is to instant CC someone winding up a Wrecking blow, stun a dodge rolling player, stun someone soul-assaulting/ beaming you and as a finisher combo so your enemy can't block you dawnbreaker/ light overload attacks etc and /or velocious curse as they're all about to land.

Streak is still the best small combat repositioning ability in the game. No other class has anything nearly as useful. You don't need to use it 5+ times in PvP unless you're flat out fleeing from a zerg.

I'll say this though, the toughest sorcs to fight in the game right now, the ones everyone hates (other than the exploiters) are not really going to be impacted by this nerf as they're already playing the turret playstyle. What is changing for them however is their opponents are losing the ability to permanently dodge roll while they go all offense from inside their mines and their opponents are losing Nirnhoned. It's going to be an extremely difficult build to counter for anyone and the QQ is going to be worse than it ever has been. The only way I can see fighting a sorc as a Stam Nightblade is by using Absorb Magick at this point...but offensively you'll still be pretty ineffective.

The only hope I have is with the WW nerf, Sorcs Stam regen is going to be weaker than it was and it may be possible to stamina drain them to kill them but the best sorcs will still be able to overcome that.

cschwingeb14_ESO · July 2015

The BoL nerf is too much. It's much much worse than the Reflective Scale nerf. BoL is dead unless it goes back up to 3-4 seconds duration, or it gets a defensive buff with a 4-6s duration added (major spell resist, or minor all-damage)

Streak needs to have the stun increased to 3 seconds, or have the stun removed and another offensive effect added

Turret is the new magicka sorc spec, and its not that bad in IC, where you can't afford to run around to much. Also, the free healing from crits on mobs is not bad. Mines, proxy det, lightning pool, frags, curse, shield, flare.

Dracane · July 2015

At first I was excited to see, that rune prison no longer has a cast time. But this change is a duck

First good thing is, that petrify and rune prison now grant immunity when you get damaged. So Noob DKs cant just spam petrify all day long.

However, the negative thing about rune cage.... If you rune cage someone and attempt to knock him down with crystal shard, he will be free and gets immunity. You cannot CC rune caged enemies. Which makes it not usefull for my plans.

Have yet to see, if the same goes for defensive rune.

Ezareth · July 2015

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

The BoL nerf is too much. It's much much worse than the Reflective Scale nerf. BoL is dead unless it goes back up to 3-4 seconds duration, or it gets a defensive buff with a 4-6s duration added (major spell resist, or minor all-damage)

Streak needs to have the stun increased to 3 seconds, or have the stun removed and another offensive effect added

Turret is the new magicka sorc spec, and its not that bad in IC, where you can't afford to run around to much. Also, the free healing from crits on mobs is not bad. Mines, proxy det, lightning pool, frags, curse, shield, flare.

Don't forget mines themselves heal you as well.

JD2013 · July 2015

Barely used Bolt Escape anyhow. With a hardened ward, I always stand and fight.

Kupoking · July 2015

Francescolg wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I think that you dramatize the subject a bit too much.

That is why sorcerers are called drama-queens..

Is this right in french?
"Je pense que tu dramatise ce subjet du tout!"

Indeed it is

TheBonesXXX · July 2015

So people got used to a skill that could was cheap, required absolutely no resource management and the skill was being used offensively or defensively yet its purpose is defined clearly in the name of the skill, Bolt Escape.

Now it's clear in the fact its an escape skill, working as intended and you are complaining about it.

Let's look at it from everyone else's angle.

Bolt of Lightning, Sorcs until 1.7, sit in the ball and free cast without consequence. Ball of Lightning nullified ALL incoming magicka attacks.

Streak allowed you a CC pack of people, with decent damage, and again nearly infinite casts.

Sorcerers could engage and disengage players better than the actual class that's built to do it.

Where is the issue?

ToRelax · July 2015

I am just a bit undecided still wether to go vamp for mistform now. And use that additionally.
I would then use clouding swarm, but that means either use overload or the newly possible meteor + rune cage combo.
Streak is still a very good skill that I would not drop so easily.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

So people got used to a skill that could was cheap, required absolutely no resource management and the skill was being used offensively or defensively yet its purpose is defined clearly in the name of the skill, Bolt Escape.

Now it's clear in the fact its an escape skill, working as intended and you are complaining about it.

Let's look at it from everyone else's angle.

Bolt of Lightning, Sorcs until 1.7, sit in the ball and free cast without consequence. Ball of Lightning nullified ALL incoming magicka attacks.

Streak allowed you a CC pack of people, with decent damage, and again nearly infinite casts.

Sorcerers could engage and disengage players better than the actual class that's built to do it.

Where is the issue?

That wasn't the point of the post, running around, etc is not what i was talking about.

Sorcs now have no class synergy at all, Streak does nothing but make your enemy immune to Rune Cage and Frags knockdown for a measly amount of damage and a 1.5 sec stun.

Ball of Lighting is no longer useful to cast behind against Crushing Shock users.

Not all Sorc's were built to Bolt Escape 25 times, i sure wasn't. As Ezareth said the best thing now is the "turret style" with Mines and that simply is not fun for me.

I gave my observations, that's all. Im rolling a Nightblade.

this post had nothing to do with Sorcs running or Bolting an insane number of times.

I guess All Sorc's should be lumped in the same category, when i personally rarely casted BOL more then 3 times in a row unless i was running from a zerg.

I guess Ball of Lighting nullifying No magic attacks and being the most expensive skill in the game already being made more expensive now is the way to go? got ya.

To Sorc's out there, don't even put anything on your bar that has a cast time, As Magic Nightblades, which will be the most popular class, are all running Crushing Shock, it will be nearly impossible for you to cast anything with a cast time...atleast half your Sorcs are also using it, and probably close to a quarter of your Templar's are as well...so anything that has a cast time you might as well shelve it....because you won't have any way to cast it.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just a bit undecided still wether to go vamp for mistform now. And use that additionally.
I would then use clouding swarm, but that means either use overload or the newly possible meteor + rune cage combo.
Streak is still a very good skill that I would not drop so easily.

Rune Cage + Soul Assault is even better, dirt cheap, hits like a truck and won't break your Rune Cage.

cschwingeb14_ESO · July 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Bolt of Lightning, Sorcs until 1.7, sit in the ball and free cast without consequence. Ball of Lightning nullified ALL incoming magicka attacks.

Streak allowed you a CC pack of people, with decent damage, and again nearly infinite casts.

Nice troll. BoL has no effect on channeled, AE or DoT attacks. It is also easy to bug so that it doesn't even intercept spell projectiles.

Streak allowes you to give a pack of people/mobs CC immunity, and deal less damage than one Impulse. I don't think you get how worthless a 1.5s stun is when abilities have a 1 second animation lockout

ToRelax · July 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just a bit undecided still wether to go vamp for mistform now. And use that additionally.
I would then use clouding swarm, but that means either use overload or the newly possible meteor + rune cage combo.
Streak is still a very good skill that I would not drop so easily.

Rune Cage + Soul Assault is even better, dirt cheap, hits like a truck and won't break your Rune Cage.

Not sure wether you understand the actual point of of it... I didn't write meteor as the first skill without a reason.
From rune cage + soul assault you can just break out, that's old and practically got nerfed with 2.1 because it rather tickles now.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just a bit undecided still wether to go vamp for mistform now. And use that additionally.
I would then use clouding swarm, but that means either use overload or the newly possible meteor + rune cage combo.
Streak is still a very good skill that I would not drop so easily.

Rune Cage + Soul Assault is even better, dirt cheap, hits like a truck and won't break your Rune Cage.

Not sure wether you understand the actual point of of it... I didn't write meteor as the first skill without a reason.
From rune cage + soul assault you can just break out, that's old and practically got nerfed with 2.1 because it rather tickles now.

Ahh yes i forgot, and i realize Meteor now works good with Rune Cage to keep them in the ground DOT it leaves behind which does pretty good damge i think.

I never got around to even messing with Soul Assault on PTS. Shame they nerfed Soul Assault that badly

SorataArisugawa · July 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I am just a bit undecided still wether to go vamp for mistform now. And use that additionally.
I would then use clouding swarm, but that means either use overload or the newly possible meteor + rune cage combo.
Streak is still a very good skill that I would not drop so easily.

Rune Cage + Soul Assault is even better, dirt cheap, hits like a truck and won't break your Rune Cage.

Did they change something with Rune Cage? Patchnotes do not say so...