Sharpened Mace fixed in this update or not.

Xael · July 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

@Xael a damage increase of 56% doesnt seem strange to you? That's huge!
Mace with non-trait added 11% damage in your test.

Your testing just proves the insane penetration sharpened mace gives.

I didn't say the damage increase wasn't huge. Just by adding 2 Sharpened (10% total), I gained roughly 40% damage increase from my non traited maces.

What I did say is it's not the bug everyone is making it out to be. Mind you, in this thread alone, you hear it does: 30k armor pen, full armor pen, etc. Before I even saw this thread I have heard so many different things about this "bug." First it was that Twin Blade and Blunt passive was messed up. Next it was the Combo of Sharpened with Twin Blade. Then it was just Sharpened. After that it became something like crazy armor pen numbers to armor being dropped to 0 or in the negatives.

MCMancub · July 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

Isn't this from several, several months ago though? I performed this same test recently and did not come up with these numbers (using the armor penetration formula). You keep copy/pasting this in threads from here which makes me think you aren't the one who originally tested this and probably don't know if it still holds true. I hope to be able to test this on PTS soon to see how it looks compared to live.

With regards to those saying that no tank with armor should take that much damage, you fail to realize what armor is. Everything should have a counter. Armor counters physical attacks, armor penetration counters armor, and health counters armor penetration.

Apart from the problem that armor pen basically comes for free and ignores way too much armor, meaning that you can't counter physical attacks with armor anymore, you're right.

The only real fix it needs is to adjust the armor you get from CP to match the armor penetration you get from CP. Other than that, everyone has a flat 10% penetration. Anything on top of that and you're building to counter armor. Thus, you should shred that armor.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

@Xael a damage increase of 56% doesnt seem strange to you? That's huge!
Mace with non-trait added 11% damage in your test.

Your testing just proves the insane penetration sharpened mace gives.

I didn't say the damage increase wasn't huge. Just by adding 2 Sharpened (10% total), I gained roughly 40% damage increase from my non traited maces.

What I did say is it's not the bug everyone is making it out to be. Mind you, in this thread alone, you hear it does: 30k armor pen, full armor pen, etc. Before I even saw this thread I have heard so many different things about this "bug." First it was that Twin Blade and Blunt passive was messed up. Next it was the Combo of Sharpened with Twin Blade. Then it was just Sharpened. After that it became something like crazy armor pen numbers to armor being dropped to 0 or in the negatives.

Could you probably calculate the armor of that bear you tested it on?

And a 40% damage increase coming out of something that should increase your armor pen by 10% is kinda bugged.

edit: would be cool if you could test it against another player. With sharpened maces against a naked target, against light armor, against full heavy + armor buff.

timidobserver · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Yeh, people that use stam builds think it is fine to have more armor penetration than even the sturdiest tank has armor.

So you speak for everyone playing a stam build? Not everyone uses maces and not everyone knows or believes there is a bug involved. If you are going to speak here, try doing so intelligently. You are beginning to stink the place up with nonsense like this. I am uploading a video for @ezareth to watch right now. Unfortunately youtube is slow.

Nope just many of them. For example in a post above you describe a 56% damage increase as "This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be."

MCMancub · July 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

@Xael a damage increase of 56% doesnt seem strange to you? That's huge!
Mace with non-trait added 11% damage in your test.

Your testing just proves the insane penetration sharpened mace gives.

I didn't say the damage increase wasn't huge. Just by adding 2 Sharpened (10% total), I gained roughly 40% damage increase from my non traited maces.

What I did say is it's not the bug everyone is making it out to be. Mind you, in this thread alone, you hear it does: 30k armor pen, full armor pen, etc. Before I even saw this thread I have heard so many different things about this "bug." First it was that Twin Blade and Blunt passive was messed up. Next it was the Combo of Sharpened with Twin Blade. Then it was just Sharpened. After that it became something like crazy armor pen numbers to armor being dropped to 0 or in the negatives.

Could you probably calculate the armor of that bear you tested it on?

And a 40% damage increase coming out of something that should increase your armor pen by 10% is kinda bugged.

edit: would be cool if you could test it against another player. With sharpened maces against a naked target, against light armor, against full heavy + armor buff.

Everyone gets a flat 10%. So another 10% would be 20% and this is assuming he didn't have any CP in Piercing (I didn't read, so I'm not sure if he did or not).

Ezareth · July 2015

Yeah tests like these are why I don't like tests against PvE mobs.

I'll try to set up a test shortly with a player with a known number of Armor etc.

From my understanding you could always fully Penetrate PvE mobs, and if you're running full penetration you should fully penetration someone in light armor and most of someone in medium armor.

You shouldn't fully penetrate someone with 30K armor however you should be penetrating maybe 15K-20K of that with mace penetration and legendary sharpened.

Spell and Armor penetration has never been fully functioning in my experience. There has always been something that hasn't worked according to tooltip or how you'd expect it to work.

Leandor · July 2015

How many points did you have in piercing during these tests, @Xael ?

TheBull · July 2015

danno8 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

So by using 2 maces with sharpened trait and twin blade and blunt passive your damage went up by 60% compared to dual axes?

That makes it look like sharpened is very much bugged to me. Isn't that the bug every one is complaining about?

edit, you should try to use dual sharpened axes to complete the test.

It never was sharpened. It was duel maces themselves. Not 2 hander, but duel maces. Just by equipping them plus 1 point in pen, harvens would show 32kish armor pen. The maces made the difference between a 11k flying blade crit and a 15k flying blade crit.

Now I don't believe harvens is accurate, but running with all NBs for a long time who think of nothing but how to kill people all day I can confirm there was (all of 1.6) something very wrong with duel maces.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Yeah tests like these are why I don't like tests against PvE mobs.

I'll try to set up a test shortly with a player with a known number of Armor etc.

From my understanding you could always fully Penetrate PvE mobs, and if you're running full penetration you should fully penetration someone in light armor and most of someone in medium armor.

You shouldn't fully penetrate someone with 30K armor however you should be penetrating maybe 20K of that with mace penetration and

Spell and Armor penetration has never been fully functioning in my experience. There has always been something that hasn't worked according to tooltip or how you'd expect it to work.

Yes, it was always bugged one way or another.

But penetration should always be a % of your opponents resistance/armor, not a flat value.

Ezareth · July 2015

Also players should keep in mind that Swords provide +5% Damage so a Mace would need to be penetrating at least 3250 Armor just to equal that, then you consider the fact you can't penetrate shields, you're already fully penetrating light armor, overpenetration etc which means it should at least add another 10K to your penetration to be balanced IMO.

If people are penetrating 30K armor when a sword is only penetrating say 10K armor in the same scenario then I'd agree something isn't working correctly.

Alcast · July 2015

Maces were designed to crush armor and therefore should deal *** more damage vs armored enemies.

danno8 · July 2015

TheBull wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

So by using 2 maces with sharpened trait and twin blade and blunt passive your damage went up by 60% compared to dual axes?

That makes it look like sharpened is very much bugged to me. Isn't that the bug every one is complaining about?

edit, you should try to use dual sharpened axes to complete the test.

It never was sharpened. It was duel maces themselves. Not 2 hander, but duel maces. Just by equipping them plus 1 point in pen, harvens would show 32kish armor pen. The maces made the difference between a 11k flying blade crit and a 15k flying blade crit.

Now I don't believe harvens is accurate, but running with all NBs for a long time who think of nothing but how to kill people all day I can confirm there was (all of 1.6) something very wrong with duel maces.

And yet look at the damage increase that happens only after he has sharpened the maces...

I think he should grab some sharpened axes and compare it to sharpened maces.

Also if the problem is armour penetration being bypassed, that would make the bear have something like 40% physical resistance. Seems high for a bear doesn't it?

danno8 · July 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Maces were designed to crush armor and therefore should deal *** more damage vs armored enemies.

Yah, but I don't think that's how they calculate it. IF it was % based of your opponents armour then it would hit heavy armored opponents more than light armored ones. But it seems to be a flat amount, which is lame. And it seems to bypass all of it rather easily with just a trait/weapon choice. Which is poor balance.

Cuddler · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

Your tests confirm the bug is there. Did you test on the PTS?

If we assume the Twin Blade passive works correctly, you completely ignored the bear's armour with Twin Blade + Sharpened.

Your unmitigated damage was the damage from your last test:

Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Your test bear's armour normally mitigates around 36%:

1 - (1036/1620) = 0.3605
1- (848/1326) = 0.3605

Twin Blade would have reduced mitigation by 20% to 28.8%:

0.3605 * (1 - 0.2) = 0.2884

The damage numbers with just Twin Blade should have been:

1620 * (1 - 0.2884) = 1152.792
1326 * (1 - 0.2884) = 943.5816

They are very close to what you got in your second test.

With Twin Blade + Sharpened, the bear had zero mitigation against you. If Sharpened worked correctly, you would have seen the following values in the final test instead:

1620 * (1 - (0.3605 * (1 - 0.3)) = 1211.193
1326 * (1 - (0.3605 * (1 - 0.3)) = 991.3839

starkerealm · July 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Maces were designed to crush armor and therefore should deal *** more damage vs armored enemies.

Which is why most plate armor included flax or other fabric padding under the plate to help absorb the impact of weapon strikes.

But, that's not the conversation here. This is asking, does the armor penetration work the way it's supposed to or is it bugged? You get hit with a massive hammer while wearing full plate it should still hurt, but the hammer shouldn't magically ignore your armor entirely.

Ezareth · July 2015

Back when Nirnhoned and Sharpened was bugged, the way penetration worked is you could "Over-penetrate" someone's spell resist which would actually give you a 5-10% damage increase.

These kind of things are why I don't think penetration has ever worked correctly for anything. Who knows how the hell it is supposed to work. I know Sharpened (or Nirnhoned) has never provided the flat penetration value that you'd expect by reading the tooltip based on hours of testing done on my end.

Alcast · July 2015

Prolly the dude that wrote the script for Penetration got fired long time ago and they have 0 clue how fix it

Aunatar · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

Isn't this from several, several months ago though? I performed this same test recently and did not come up with these numbers (using the armor penetration formula). You keep copy/pasting this in threads from here which makes me think you aren't the one who originally tested this and probably don't know if it still holds true. I hope to be able to test this on PTS soon to see how it looks compared to live, but it strikes me as odd that this old information keeps getting passed around for months now without ZOS saying a word about it and no other information cropping up.

With regards to those saying that no tank with armor should take that much damage, you fail to realize what armor is. Everything should have a counter. Armor counters physical attacks, armor penetration counters armor, and health counters armor penetration.

Let's stack HP and die from HP pots cooldown! :'D

Leandor · July 2015

A test should be made on PTS. The base for the test should be two player characters at identical VR, both naked with all skill points and champion points reset. The following damage numbers are needed for each test and at least ten such numbers should be noted down by both, tester & testee. Both should use different combat log addons to preclude addon errors.

Make a test with two maces, two axes and two swords. Note damage.
Make a test with one mace & one axe and one mace & one sword. Note damage.
Make a test with mace & shield, axe & shield, sword & shield. Note damage.

I would propose the following test regimes:

Test set one: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons non traited.
Test set two: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all precise.
Test set three: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all sharpened.
Test set four: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons non traited
Test set five: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons precise
Test set six: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons sharpened
Test set seven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons non traited
Test set eight: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all precise
Test set nine: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all sharpened.
Test set ten: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited
Test set eleven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise
Test set twelve: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened
Test set thirteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited
Test set fourteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise
Test set fifteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened

I agree that this is probably several hours of work. If you include mitigation champion perks, this could easily double the time. In order to get to the bottom of the involved mechanics, I do not think that this could be reduced.

Solanum · July 2015

Interesting test results, they mean plate is useless.

Xael · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Yeh, people that use stam builds think it is fine to have more armor penetration than even the sturdiest tank has armor.

So you speak for everyone playing a stam build? Not everyone uses maces and not everyone knows or believes there is a bug involved. If you are going to speak here, try doing so intelligently. You are beginning to stink the place up with nonsense like this. I am uploading a video for @ezareth to watch right now. Unfortunately youtube is slow.

Nope just many of them. For example in a post above you describe a 56% damage increase as "This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be."

If you are going to take the time and quote/respond, take the time to read what I actually wrote. You are pulling things out of context and committing libel, knock it off.

Aunatar · July 2015

What is broken, imho, is that a full 7 heavy reinforced armor set is countered by 2 pieces of weapons. And please remind there is still the surprise attack ability. (Somebody said nightblade?)

Ezareth · July 2015

Aunatar wrote: »

What is broken, imho, is that a full 7 heavy reinforced armor set is countered by 2 pieces of weapons. And please remind there is still the surprise attack ability. (Somebody said nightblade?)

Plenty of abilities provide Major Fracture.

I haven't seen anyone verify that someone using a single or dual maces is penetrating 32K Armor. This is the testing that needs done. Testing on mobs is pointless.

I can guarantee you I only hit my highest crits with wrecking blow on Sorcs wearing light armor not DKs in plate. I'm still seeing a significant reduction in the damage to players wearing plate.

Tankqull · July 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Tested or not, a heavy armor character with points allocated in extra armor with CP should not take 15k wrecking blows. (i take that dmg everyday)
Whether it's a bug or not, it's completely stupid

sure you have not had any crappy shield leftover running before being hit that high? as even a 1 point shield makes the entire dmg of a hit unmitigated while the overflow dmg still can crit...

Xael · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

How many points did you have in piercing during these tests, @Xael ?

I had one point in Piercing, I just removed it, I will go back real quick and check the numbers. I will update in a second.
I will also run a test with sharpened axe/sword.

Ok, with 0 points in Piercing (I had 1 before) dw mace with sharpened is 1620mh/1326oh

Xael · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

What is broken, imho, is that a full 7 heavy reinforced armor set is countered by 2 pieces of weapons. And please remind there is still the surprise attack ability. (Somebody said nightblade?)

Plenty of abilities provide Major Fracture.

I haven't seen anyone verify that someone using a single or dual maces is penetrating 32K Armor. This is the testing that needs done. Testing on mobs is pointless.

I can guarantee you I only hit my highest crits with wrecking blow on Sorcs wearing light armor not DKs in plate. I'm still seeing a significant reduction in the damage to players wearing plate.

Player stats fluctuate way too much. The reason for using a mob is there is no change in it's stats ever and every hit does the same amount damage unless it crits.
And I also agree that my damage vs soft targets is much better than say full plate tanks.

If you guys are going to bother testing vs a player you will need to account for racials, passives, skills on bars (some skills gives bonuses to what you have on your bar, etc) CP, etc. The best way to do this is find a non nord target who doesn't have any CP in use (particularly red), same goes for the attacker, get rid of your CP, particularly Piercing. So many things you need to do when testing against another player...

Ezareth · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

What is broken, imho, is that a full 7 heavy reinforced armor set is countered by 2 pieces of weapons. And please remind there is still the surprise attack ability. (Somebody said nightblade?)

Plenty of abilities provide Major Fracture.

I haven't seen anyone verify that someone using a single or dual maces is penetrating 32K Armor. This is the testing that needs done. Testing on mobs is pointless.

I can guarantee you I only hit my highest crits with wrecking blow on Sorcs wearing light armor not DKs in plate. I'm still seeing a significant reduction in the damage to players wearing plate.

Player stats fluctuate way too much. The reason for using a mob is there is no change in it's stats ever and every hit does the same amount damage unless it crits.
And I also agree that my damage vs soft targets is much better than say full plate tanks.

If you guys are going to bother testing vs a player you will need to account for racials, passives, skills on bars (some skills gives bonuses to what you have on your bar, etc) CP, etc. The best way to do this is find a non nord target who doesn't have any CP in use (particularly red), same goes for the attacker, get rid of your CP, particularly Piercing. So many things you need to do when testing against another player...

Yes I know how to set up a controlled environment and isolate variables, I've done it a good dozen times myself and spent at least 20 hours testing mechanics in this game with other players.

I'd test on live but it would require a significant gold investment to retest and I've dumped millions of gold into Tri-pots (Which I now have to unload haha) and such so the PTS is a much better environment for this, especially with the option to use template chars.

Testing against another player however allows you to verify any assumptions you're making.

My point on my wrecking blow crits is *I* never change and I know exactly what buffs I have and what not so my theoretical maximum crit is my theoretical maximum crit and I've only hit numbers in that range (While not in stealth) on a player wearing robes so players are at least getting *some* physical resistance not being *fully penetrated* which is what people are throwing around out here.

Xael · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

A test should be made on PTS. The base for the test should be two player characters at identical VR, both naked with all skill points and champion points reset. The following damage numbers are needed for each test and at least ten such numbers should be noted down by both, tester & testee. Both should use different combat log addons to preclude addon errors.
Make a test with two maces, two axes and two swords. Note damage.

Make a test with one mace & one axe and one mace & one sword. Note damage.

Make a test with mace & shield, axe & shield, sword & shield. Note damage.

I would propose the following test regimes:
Test set one: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons non traited.

Test set two: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all precise.

Test set three: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all sharpened.

Test set four: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons non traited

Test set five: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons precise

Test set six: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons sharpened

Test set seven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons non traited

Test set eight: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all precise

Test set nine: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all sharpened.

Test set ten: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited

Test set eleven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise

Test set twelve: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened

Test set thirteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited

Test set fourteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise

Test set fifteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened

I agree that this is probably several hours of work. If you include mitigation champion perks, this could easily double the time. In order to get to the bottom of the involved mechanics, I do not think that this could be reduced.

I will do this.
You want this done on PTS not Live?
I only ask because PTS might change in the next week or so. I can do it though.

Leandor · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

A test should be made on PTS. The base for the test should be two player characters at identical VR, both naked with all skill points and champion points reset. The following damage numbers are needed for each test and at least ten such numbers should be noted down by both, tester & testee. Both should use different combat log addons to preclude addon errors.
Make a test with two maces, two axes and two swords. Note damage.

Make a test with one mace & one axe and one mace & one sword. Note damage.

Make a test with mace & shield, axe & shield, sword & shield. Note damage.

I would propose the following test regimes:
Test set one: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons non traited.

Test set two: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all precise.

Test set three: No skill points distributed, no CP distributed, both characters (tester & testee) naked, weapons all sharpened.

Test set four: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons non traited

Test set five: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons precise

Test set six: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, no CP, no Skillpoints, all weapons sharpened

Test set seven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons non traited

Test set eight: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all precise

Test set nine: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, no CP, weapons all sharpened.

Test set ten: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited

Test set eleven: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise

Test set twelve: Target naked, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened

Test set thirteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons non traited

Test set fourteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons precise

Test set fifteen: Target in full heavy armor with target to achieve 32000k armor rating for maximum mitigation, no skill points, no CP. Tester naked, full skill points in DW, 100 points in Piercing, all weapons sharpened

I agree that this is probably several hours of work. If you include mitigation champion perks, this could easily double the time. In order to get to the bottom of the involved mechanics, I do not think that this could be reduced.

I will do this.
You want this done on PTS not Live?
I only ask because PTS might change in the next week or so. I can do it though.

I will bow eternal to you if you do. I think PTS would be better choice, otherwise it would take a lot of resources to provide all the required equipment.

As a side remark, perhaps it would also be good to include nirnhoned weapons in that test. Bah, idiocy. Nirnhoned does nothing for physical...

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Aunatar wrote: »

What is broken, imho, is that a full 7 heavy reinforced armor set is countered by 2 pieces of weapons. And please remind there is still the surprise attack ability. (Somebody said nightblade?)

Plenty of abilities provide Major Fracture.

I haven't seen anyone verify that someone using a single or dual maces is penetrating 32K Armor. This is the testing that needs done. Testing on mobs is pointless.

I can guarantee you I only hit my highest crits with wrecking blow on Sorcs wearing light armor not DKs in plate. I'm still seeing a significant reduction in the damage to players wearing plate.

This is because the armor reduction on a 2h mace does NOT work the same way as with one or two 1h mace equipped.