Any news on Argonians racial skill buffs?

Junkogen · September 2014

tinythinker wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Wow, this was posted in April and still no buff or redesign? I'm pretty bummed about this. Every other race got some attention except Argonians. I've been sending feedback but it seems like the devs don't care.

Based on the lore, it would be great for them to get something like Stealthy. Argonians are supposed to be masters of guerrilla warfare. Their racials don't suggest that at all.

Hmmm, maybe double the value of Quick to Mend when stealthed? At max that would go from 6% to 12%.

EDIT:

Or we could just overhaul/rename Quick to Mend. Here are two options that might be fun. One is a version of something I've previously suggested, another plays off of the stealth/guerrilla warfare theme.

Spirit of the Hist

I. Increases healing received by 2%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 3%.
II. Increases healing received by 4%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 6%.
II. Increases healing received by 6%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 9%.

Shadow Mender

I. Increases healing received by 2%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 3%.
II. Increases healing received by 4%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 6%.
II. Increases healing received by 6%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 9%.

I personally don't care for that first one because it's too niche and the second one is too small. Maybe something like Robust, but not in combat. Argonian racials are already too conditional. Since it seems clear that we're stuck with the healing focus in Quick to Mend, I would like to see an increase in stamina and magicka regen, maybe like 1/2/3% to not overshadow the Bosmer and Altmer racials. I would actually like to see them get Stealthy or something like that. Perhaps attacks from stealth could drain some life. It would be nice to get some kind of buff, though.

PlagueMonk · October 2014

Nugeneration wrote: »

I don't see the big deal with everyone wanting better racials. Can someone please explain it to me? I'm not trying to be rude about it, but I'm generally curious. All of the %increase and regen abilites are capped just the same end game.

So what if my Bosmer doesn't have any %increase to magic or regen? I'll cap it through gear/light armor spec the same way you put points into racials to hit the cap.

Just because some people get to put skill points into their racials to hit caps where others have to do it through armor skill lines I don't see the big deal. Everyone caps just the same in the end. In my opinion it doesn't matter one iota how it's done.

Back to my question though is their a legit reason people are wanting better %/regen racials? In the grand scheme of things I think that increased healing affect could have more pay off than the albeit useless stat increases.

The difference comes in the fact that by being given such large bonuses, they don't have to wasted points to reach the soft cap, they are then free to use those points ELSEWHERE.

Argonians on the other hand have to use extra resources to achieve what other races are just given for basically free. It's not really that hard to comprehend.

PlagueMonk · October 2014

From the Elder Scrolls Wiki:

Argonians or Saxhleel[1] are a race of reptilian people native to the large and marshy province known as Black Marsh, a region of Tamriel. They can be found in smaller numbers throughout the continent, and have been featured in every one of the main games so far. Argonians are one of the few races completely unrelated to men and mer, being descended directly from the Hist. Enigmatic and intelligent, the Argonians are experts of guerrilla tactics, and their natural abilities suit their swampy homeland. They have developed immunities to diseases that have plagued many would-be explorers in the region, and they are capable of easily exploring underwater locations due to their ability to breathe water. Argonians make proficient thieves, due to their superb lockpicking and sneaking skills. They are also very capable warriors and archers due to their constant use of guerrilla warfare against Warring Tribes or Dunmer slavers.

Argonians have gills on their necks and are covered in scales. This gives Argonians the ability to breathe underwater, which has proven to be an advantage in combat with other races, especially in the swamps of Black Marsh. Argonians are trained in guerilla warfare and drown their enemies by dragging them to the water and holding them under. Soldiers walking alongside rivers, travelling on ships in the ocean or barges along the rivers have been attacked by Argonians that ambushed them from the water where they lay in wait. They then either kill them or they are forced to flee back into the water and vanish into the depths. Either way it is an effective strategy as they cannot be followed into the deeper oceans and rivers.

I have highlighted the important passages:

So Argonians are experts at guerrilla warfare, immune to disease, excellent thieves, superb at sneaking and lockpicking, breathe underwater and have scaly hides.

So how did we go from ALL that great source material to better swimming, better at using a restoration staff, slightly more HPs and more receptive at being healed?!

If I was to redesign our passives i would get rid of the stupid resto staff exp and do the following:

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (3 ranks) – Increases stealth speed by (7/14/21)% and increases damage done while stealthed by (3/6/9)%

Amphibian Physiology (3 ranks) – Increases swimming speed by 50% and armor rating by (3/6/9)%

Argonian Resistance (3 ranks) – Increases maximum Health by (3/6/9)% and Poison/Disease resistance by (10/20/30). Disease resistance should apply directly to disease abilities, lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag cats)

Quick to Mend (3 ranks) – Increases healing received by (4/8/12)% and the effectiveness of potions by (7/14/21)%.

AND if/when underwater zones come, we should get the ability to breathe underwater dammit!

Note that most of the abilities I changed out are directly from other races.

ThatHappyCat · October 2014

All races have a skill line experience booster. Giving Argonians essentially four useful racials as opposed to the three every other race gets is too much.

Would be nice if Argonians have Stealthy, but otherwise I'm happy with Argonian racials as they are. Not great but hardly terrible.

tinythinker · October 2014

I like their racial and the focus on health, I just wish they were boosted to be in line with the overall game logic you see everywhere else.

PlagueMonk · October 2014

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

All races have a skill line experience booster. Giving Argonians essentially four useful racials as opposed to the three every other race gets is too much.

Would be nice if Argonians have Stealthy, but otherwise I'm happy with Argonian racials as they are. Not great but hardly terrible.

Actually this is a false statement. Agronians are THE bottom of the barrel when it comes to useful racials. Just about ALL of the other classes have some real synergy with a class or build, BUT Argonians.

JUST because all the other races currently have a stupid exp booster skill doesn't mean that formula can't change. I was posting what the Argonian race should have based on what The Elder Scrolls has said about them. (and considering the bottom feeder racials we now have, we deserve to have 4 useful ones for a change)

Crescent · October 2014

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Nugeneration wrote: »

I don't see the big deal with everyone wanting better racials. Can someone please explain it to me? I'm not trying to be rude about it, but I'm generally curious. All of the %increase and regen abilites are capped just the same end game.

So what if my Bosmer doesn't have any %increase to magic or regen? I'll cap it through gear/light armor spec the same way you put points into racials to hit the cap.

Just because some people get to put skill points into their racials to hit caps where others have to do it through armor skill lines I don't see the big deal. Everyone caps just the same in the end. In my opinion it doesn't matter one iota how it's done.

Back to my question though is their a legit reason people are wanting better %/regen racials? In the grand scheme of things I think that increased healing affect could have more pay off than the albeit useless stat increases.

The difference comes in the fact that by being given such large bonuses, they don't have to wasted points to reach the soft cap, they are then free to use those points ELSEWHERE.

Argonians on the other hand have to use extra resources to achieve what other races are just given for basically free. It's not really that hard to comprehend.

What is free about my measly 3% increase to stamina as bosmer? It's hardly an increase on a 2.4k stamina pool.

It's a pathetic ~66 stamina increase. Other races get 200+.

Bosmer stealth racial is useless in PvE. So is the resistance.

Guess what, your Argonian gets better potion usage, and potions are a huge part of your DPS. You're getting more benefit by using potions than a 66 stamina increase is benefitting my Bosmer.

Nord are even worse off.

Nerouyn · October 2014

tinythinker wrote: »

But honestly I am not really sure how much some of these racials, Argonian or otherwise, really matter in practice. I’ve see no real difference in game play.

I agree.

Putting aside PvP for a moment, what a lot of racial bonus comparisons fail to take into account is overkill / overheal.

In any PvE encounter there's usually waste. A mob may only have 100 hp left and if you hit it with an ability that does 150 damage that's 50 points of damage completely wasted. Same applies for healing. The effects that most racials would contribute to a fight would be less than that 50 hp thereby making them have absolutely no impact in 99.99% of fights.

PvP - at least the non-zerg variety - is a different story though and that's where some racials could tip the balance.

For what it's worth, I really like the current argonian racials. They're one of my favourites. I have multiple lizards.

tinythinker · October 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

For what it's worth, I really like the current argonian racials. They're one of my favourites. I have multiple lizards.

Me, too. I like the passives and my four active characters are Argonians. I don't mind suggesting how the passives can be boosted if that is going to happen, but I wouldn't want to take away the swim speed, potion effectiveness, or the health/healing boosts.

If one uses certain alchemy passives from crafting, potion enchantments on jewelry, and/or heavy armor, you can really take advantage of a uniquely Argonian build. The nice thing about racial passives is that they aren't bound by other limits, whether the current soft caps or the new configuration that is coming with the Championship system.

Nerouyn · November 2014

tinythinker wrote: »

I don't mind suggesting how the passives can be boosted if that is going to happen, but I wouldn't want to take away the swim speed, potion effectiveness, or the health/healing boosts.

I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that one isn't useless. Not that you have to swim all that often but I feel dreadfully sluggish when I do with a non-Argonian.

I kid you not. First thing I do when I hit level 5 on Bleakrock is spend a skill point to get my swim speed bonus and jump in the river.

tinythinker · December 2014

Nerouyn wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

I don't mind suggesting how the passives can be boosted if that is going to happen, but I wouldn't want to take away the swim speed, potion effectiveness, or the health/healing boosts.

I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that one isn't useless. Not that you have to swim all that often but I feel dreadfully sluggish when I do with a non-Argonian.

It is fun.

And again, I LOVE the health/healing and potion bonuses which are both lore friendly and give a unique quality to Argonian builds. I've mentioned before in this thread that I don't really want to see the Argonian passives changed so much as clarified and buffed.

For example, what do disease and poison resistance actually do? Is it just taking less damage from that damage type? If so, why not mitigate the debuffs as well to a useful degree? If there is some mitigation to the healing debuffs from things like meatbag catapults, befouled weapons, and Lethal Arrow, I haven't noticed it.

Maybe something like this?

Argonian Resistance

I. Increases Maximum Health by 1% and Poison and Disease resistance by 8. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 25%
II. Increases Maximum Health by 2% and Poison and Disease resistance by 15. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 50%
III. Increases Maximum Health by 3% and Poison and Disease resistance by 23. Reduction to healing taken reduction from Poison and Disease attacks mitigated by 75%

What do those who (want to) play Argonians think? It's a simple change that would really make Argonians stand out, especially in PvP.

I know other players using other races are hoping for buffs or changes, so I'm not taking anything away from that. Just looking at how to make the Argonian passives work a little better and make the race a more attractive choice.

Lava_Croft · December 2014

It's too bad that the buff to swimming speed is nearly entirely negated by all the deadly water in Cyrodiil.

eserras7b16_ESO · December 2014

Agree need some passives a bit more (or add swiming underwater)

Wreuntzylla · January 2015

Maybe let us use abilities while swimming...

Dragath · January 2015

Hey Guys!
I am new to the Game, and i wanted to play a DK. In older Elder Scrolls Games, i always played an Argonian, because.. Lizards! ;D
Looking through all the Racials, i noticed that are many Races that seem more suited to be played as a DK.
The Racials of Argonians seem to be a loot weaker than other Racials, and looking through the Forum, i found this Thread.
Did Zenimax ever say, that they wanted to buff the Argonian Racials to be on par with the other Races, or should i just switch to another Race like Nord, Imperial and such?
Would be a shame, but it would be worse for me to play with a subpar Race.

AlexDougherty · January 2015

Dragath wrote: »

Hey Guys!
I am new to the Game, and i wanted to play a DK. In older Elder Scrolls Games, i always played an Argonian, because.. Lizards! ;D
Looking through all the Racials, i noticed that are many Races that seem more suited to be played as a DK.
The Racials of Argonians seem to be a loot weaker than other Racials, and looking through the Forum, i found this Thread.
Did Zenimax ever say, that they wanted to buff the Argonian Racials to be on par with the other Races, or should i just switch to another Race like Nord, Imperial and such?
Would be a shame, but it would be worse for me to play with a subpar Race.

The racials work ok with Nightblade and Templar, but are subpar with DK and Sorc, but the swim speed is good, several people say it's easier for them to swim to a destination than run or ride.

tinythinker · January 2015

Dragath wrote: »

Hey Guys!
I am new to the Game, and i wanted to play a DK. In older Elder Scrolls Games, i always played an Argonian, because.. Lizards! ;D
Looking through all the Racials, i noticed that are many Races that seem more suited to be played as a DK.
The Racials of Argonians seem to be a loot weaker than other Racials, and looking through the Forum, i found this Thread.
Did Zenimax ever say, that they wanted to buff the Argonian Racials to be on par with the other Races, or should i just switch to another Race like Nord, Imperial and such?
Would be a shame, but it would be worse for me to play with a subpar Race.

Much of it depends on your build and how you want to play your character. I would say Argonian passives work best with Nightblades, are a tie for DK and Templar, and least optimal for a Sorcerer.

There are lots of changes, known and unknown, coming in Update 6 so it is hard to say how things will play out after the huge changes coming this winter/spring.

Here is the last thing I wrote (from August) about Argonian builds, which suggests how one can make more of being a saxhleel in each class. It quotes still earlier thoughts on the subject. Outdated portions are struck through. New portions are marked as such. In some cases I have personally gone against the general notion extolled below of taking the morph that adds back magicka (i.e. choosing Breath of Life over Honor the Dead) because I got increased magicka recovery from an armor set like Seducer.

You might also want to try to jump-start this thread on Argonian DKs

General Thoughts on Argonian Builds

The advantage of the Argonian can be seen in the passives and how they interact with with other passives and active abilities. The following is based on my various previous writing on Argonians.

There is synergy with the Nighblade passives, and to a lesser extent with Templar passives, Dragonknight passives, and Heavy Armor passives. Much of the fun I've had with character design and development has come from discovering synergies. For example, use some heavy armor and Draconic Power passives with Argonian racial traits to buff the health and healing of your character.

Dragonknight + Heavy Armor

Here I include synergies between Argonian passives, Dragonknight passives/abilities, and Heavy Armor passives. The latter obviously also apply to other classes as well.

Increased healing received: Draconic Power - "Burning Heart", Heavy Armor - "Rapid Mending", Argonian - "Quick to Mend".

Increased health recovery + Increased health stat cap: Draconic Power - "Elder Dragon" and Heavy Armor - "Constitution" for health recovery + Argonian - "Argonian Resistance" for increased health stat.

There are many DK traits that can help make up for recovery rates lagging in magicka or stamina. Under Draconic Power, for example, the "Green Dragon Blood" morph increases stamina recovery and the "Draw Essence" morph restores magicka from fallen foes.

Templar

I can also see a case for a similar build with a light-tank Templar using the following morphs in the Restoring Light skill line: Rushed Ceremony –> Honor the Dead (added magicka important with no racial bonus for this stat), Healing Ritual –> Ritual of Rebirth (further buffing the racial bonus for healing received), Restoring Aura –> Repentance (adds recovery for stamina and for health further buffing the racial bonus for health recovery and making up for no racial stamina bonus, especially useful for being in Heavy Armor with One-Handed + Shield as the primary weapon), and Rune Focus –> Channeled Focus (to make up for lack of a racial bonus for magicka in a spell heavy build, but the increased buff to healing received complimenting the racial bonus could be a good choice for staying power).

In the Aedric Spear skill line the Spear Shards –> Luminous Shards morph also helps out the lack of racial bonuses to Stamina and Magicka for a build that will need good amounts of both, and the Spear Wall passive compliments both the armor and (primary) weapon selection. Basically the idea is to compliment/maximize the utility of the Argonian racials to keep the character alive and to choose passives/morphs to keep the character active with effects/abilities. Not flashy and not much capacity for rapid high damage bursts but rather more of a work horse/yeoman kind of approach.

Sorcerer

I see some possible advantages for an Argonian as Sorcerer, since the class gives everyone myriad magicka bonuses, but Heavy Armor doesn’t seem like a good option here given a need to get all the extra magicka (recovery) possible, so that complementarity is reduced or eliminated. The Daedric Summoning skill line does have the Daedric Protection passive to boost/compliment the increased health recovery of Argonians, and the Dark Magic skill line has the Blood Magic passive to boost a fixed percent of the character’s health (which has a higher cap for Argonians so they could receive “more” health points), but that’s about it. Not to suggest an Argonian Sorcerer wouldn’t be fun or effective, I’m just not seeing as much to take advantage of in terms of the innate Argonian traits.

Nightblade

Looking superficially at an Argonian as Nightblade, I know that some people have mentioned using Heavy Armor with this class (bringing in that choice’s complementarity to Argonian racial traits), and like Sorcerer and magicka any race gains stamina bonuses as a Nightblade. Beyond that some skill line abilities and passives look promising. Under the Assassination skill line, the Assassin’s Blade –> Killer’s Blade morph heals the character for a fixed percentage of maximum health (again the health cap is higher for Argonians) and the reduction to health received for using the Death Stroke ultimate ability is somewhat mitigated by the bonus to health received by Argonians (not much, but it’s better than nothing). The Path of Darkness –> Refreshing Path morph under the Shadow skill line heals the player every second, so Argonian health (recovery and received) bonuses apply.

The Siphoning skill line, though, is where the complementarity with Argonian traits really take off. The passives alone are well suited to Argonians: Catalyst boosts potion effectiveness (Argonian’s receive this with Amphibious so if you add in potion boosting armor enchantments this stat explodes) and Soul Siphoner boosts healing received from this skill line (adding to the general healing received bonus for Argonians). That same Argonian bonus for healing received (Quick to Mend) combines with the Strife –> Swallow Soul and Siphoning Strikes –> Leeching Strikes morphs to further boost healing received.

Summary of Thoughts on Argonian Builds

Why Argonians sync well with heavy armor and tanking:

Increased healing received: Heavy Armor - "Rapid Mending", Argonian - "Quick to Mend".

Increased health recovery + Increased health stat cap: Heavy Armor - "Constitution" for health recovery/restoration of health per blow taken + Argonian - "Argonian Resistance" for increased health stat.

(New: Change to Heavy Armor passive "Constitution" to return a small amount of magicka and stamina per hit received based on maximum health, which benefits an Argonian going for max health. Most effective when getting struck/bombarded by multiple enemies at once, such as while tanking -- try it with a 5 piece Seducer set bonus for magicka builds)

Increased potion effectiveness: Argonian - "Amphibious"

Basically, an Argonian in five or more pieces of heavy armor with restoration potions can just absorb all kinds of damage. If using stamina potions or jewelry/armor enchants for increased stamina/reduced blocking cost, that Argonian will easily stand in some heavy fire.

Why Argonian sync well with the restoration staff/healing role:

The Restoration Staff skill line has the only passive of which I am aware ("Cycle of Life") based on the size of the attacker's health pool rather than on stamina or magicka. Given the healing received bonus the lizard folk can access, especially if this is enhanced by heavy armor, an Argonian really benefits from using the restoration staff to self heal or self-heal while healing others.

While racial passives can be superseded by gear enchants, food, and various skill line bonuses, if one wants to try to get an Argonian advantage, this weapon/armor combo is a good bet.

tinythinker · January 2015

YES, there is now news about racial bonus changes for Argonians, coming in Update 1.6, at least as they appeared on that update was first uploaded to the PTS.

Gruffysb16_ESO · February 2015

Yep there are indeed changes, but they suck. they have nerfed the potion racial and that's it.

tinythinker · February 2015

My last comment was supposed to have a link to compare old and new, not sure why it didn't take.

tinythinker · April 2015

Updated thoughts for post Update 6 from another thread:

(((Edit: I made the new bonuses blue to distinguish from changes that simply buff existing bonuses.)))

I was thinking about all of the ideas I and others have come up with, and this is my current thinking (changes to current post-1.65 version in bold):

Restoration Expertise
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15% and increases the effectiveness of Restoration Staff passives by 2%.

Amphibious
Increases swimming speed by 25%/50%/75% and whenever you drink a potion gain 2%/4%/6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Argonian Resistance
Increases Maximum Health by 3%/4%/5% and Poison and Disease resistance by 800/1500/2200 and gives 3%/7%/10% mitigation to Poison and Disease damage.

Quick to Mend
Increases healing received by 4%/6%/8%.

I was going to go with "Increases healing given and received by 2%/4%/8%" but instead I went with the boon to expertise with a Restoration Staff and doubled the healing received bonus. This wouldn't just be for Argonians. Whatever weapon or armor type a race has an advantage with would get a bonus to that skill line's passives.

Swim speed, which I and many others who play Argonians love, would get a boost to make it more fun and more useful in those situations where it can actually be helpful or a convenience. The maximum health bonus was increased by 1% for each rank.

As for Poison and Disease resistance, having played only Argonians until last month, I had no idea how good this was for Cyrodiil after my Breton kept getting hit with meatbag catapults. The added damage mitigation should also be extended to the Bosmer who also have a Poison/Disease resist passive.

Thanks for reading

ThatNeonZebraAgain · April 2015

tinythinker wrote: »

Updated thoughts for post Update 6 from another thread:

I was thinking about all of the ideas I and others have come up with, and this is my current thinking (changes to current 1.65 version in bold):

Restoration Expertise
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15% and increases the effectiveness of Restoration Staff passives by 2%.

Amphibious
Increases swimming speed by 25%/50%/75% and whenever you drink a potion gain 2%/4%/6% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Argonian Resistance
Increases Maximum Health by 3%/4%/5% and Poison and Disease resistance by 80/150/220 and gives 3%/7%/10% mitigation to Poison and Disease damage.

Quick to Mend
Increases healing received by 4%/6%/8%.

I was going to go with "Increases healing given and received by 2%/4%/8%" but instead I went with the boon to expertise with a Restoration Staff and doubled the healing received bonus. This wouldn't just be for Argonians. Whatever weapon or armor type a race has an advantage with would get a bonus to that skill line's passives.

Swim speed, which I and many others who play Argonians love, would get a boost to make it more fun and more useful in those situations where it can actually be helpful or a convenience. The maximum health bonus was increased by 1% for each rank.

As for Poison and Disease resistance, having played only Argonians until last month, I had no idea how good this was for Cyrodiil after my Breton kept getting hit with meatbag catapults. The added damage mitigation should also be extended to the Bosmer who also have a Poison/Disease resist passive.

Thanks for reading

These are some of the most realistic and sensible changes I've seen proposed. Like I've been saying, the current passives aren't terrible, they just need buffing to be on par with what the more powerful races have. I would've gone a bit farther on the max health (4/6/8), potion return (10/15/20), and healing received bonuses (4/8/12), but that's just me

Jar_Ek · April 2015

I doubt that the Restoration passive will be changed and tbh if it was and rippled through all races to a 2% bonus for a specific weapon it would make certain races far too powerful compared to others. So although I understand the sentiment, I think that the idea is fundamentally flawed.

Thus the best equivalent would be to add healing delivered to Quick to Mend (2,4,6%).
Personally I would dump the potion passive and replace it with additional damage vs low health and vulnerable foes. One of the main reasons being that a potion passive can never be balanced due to the fact that it has a cool down, a duration and an implicit monetary cost equivalent. It is affected by multiple other passives and jewellery. This means that if the bonus was high, then in PVP you could have resource regeneration monsters that were unbalanced and just as easily extremely gimped characters. It would also encourage not using medicinal passive and sipping weak pots.

tinythinker · April 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I doubt that the Restoration passive will be changed and tbh if it was and rippled through all races to a 2% bonus for a specific weapon it would make certain races far too powerful compared to others. So although I understand the sentiment, I think that the idea is fundamentally flawed.

Thus the best equivalent would be to add healing delivered to Quick to Mend (2,4,6%).
Personally I would dump the potion passive and replace it with additional damage vs low health and vulnerable foes. One of the main reasons being that a potion passive can never be balanced due to the fact that it has a cool down, a duration and an implicit monetary cost equivalent. It is affected by multiple other passives and jewellery. This means that if the bonus was high, then in PVP you could have resource regeneration monsters that were unbalanced and just as easily extremely gimped characters. It would also encourage not using medicinal passive and sipping weak pots.

Changing The Weapon/Armor Racial

For the Restoration Staff idea, I did not envision that all racial bonuses to weapons/armor would be boosted by 2% as per my suggestion for Argonians. Just that you would get more than a leveling bonus. Nords might get a reduction in the time needed to learn weapon traits for Two Handed weapons, for example, or require fewer tempers for successful improvement of such weapons. Trying to put out that basic kind of idea is why I suggested the Restoration Staff change in place of adding "healing given" to Quick to Mend.

To Potion or Not to Potion...

The potion passive is supposed to fit the water-related theme of Amphibious along with increased swim speed.

Argonians are known for: being "fast swimmers" in Arena with males possessing increased general speed in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion; having a boost to crafting potions with Alchemy and to Illusion magic like invisibility in Morrowind; having immunity or high resistance to poison and disease in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim; increased agility (mostly for males) in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion based on the balance offered by their tails; and the "Histskin" ability for healing much faster than other races. Ideas for how to alter Argonian passives have a lot to work with.

Keeping A Potion Bonus

Part of the objection in different threads to potion bonuses is that the original synergy with the Nightblade passive "Catalyst" is weakened post-1.6 and that it requires an inventory item with a cool-down. A change to the wording of the original version of the passive a different kind of value: "[increases] the effectiveness of potions crafted by 10/15%". It would still require an investment of time and supplies and set the ability on a cool-down, but this would allow for a unique place in the crafting trades and make the bonus available to other races for a cost.

Another angle is to give Amphibious a potion-cool down perk, eliminating the need for jewelry of the same function and thereby opening a slot or two, similar to the "Argonian Resistance" passive for disease & poison, the Dunmer's "Resist Flame" passive for fire-based damage, and the Nord "Resist Cold" passive for cold-based damage.

Replacing The Potion Bonus

If there were more swimming friendly locations, especially in Cyrodiil, there could be fun replacements for the potion portion of that passive like this: "Increases swim speed by 25/50/75% and grants invisibility during and up to 20/30/40 seconds after swimming." Given the actual state of swimming, perhaps Amphibious could be renamed Guerrilla Warfare. The swim speed could be retained as it would have been a natural Argonian trait of particular use for hit and run tactics in their homeland.

The name change would free up the passive to include non-water related perks, such as your suggestion for increased damage to low health targets. My own suggestions to potentially pair with swim speed inlcude a bonus to damage from stealthed attacks (making the passive like Stealthy but with swim speed instead of reduced detection radius), or an increase to the duration of stealth effects, or an increase to movement speed while stealthed. An increase to the duration of stealth effects is what I would lean toward but other options, listed and unlisted, have their merits.

Based on other aspects of Argonian lore and bonuses from other games, a different name replacing Amphibious could be used to incorporate other abilities. With Argonian Adaptation, you could keep the swim speed and add in something to do specifically with balance/agility and the tail, such as being immune to certain CC effects (like "off-balance") or having a having a chance to resist them (like "knockback")/shortening their duration (like "snare").

tinythinker · July 2015

Anyway, another race change for Argonians... by very very slightly buffing the potion passive. I think this is my latest suggestion for basic Argonian buffing (though previous ideas about keeping/not keeping the potion bonus are still things I would also find intriguing)

Current (as of 2.1 PTS build)

Restoration Expertise
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Amphibious
Increases swimming speed by 50% and whenever you drink a potion gain 2%/5%/8% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Argonian Resistance
Increases Maximum Health by 1%/2%/3% and Poison and Disease resistance by 80/150/220.

Quick to Mend
Increases healing received by 2%/4%/6%.

Suggested Changes

Restoration Expertise
Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff skill line by 15%.

Amphibious
Increases swimming speed by 25%/50%/75% and whenever you drink a potion gain 2%/5%/8% of your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina.

Argonian Resistance
Increases Maximum Health by 3%/4%/5% and Poison and Disease resistance by 80/150/220 whatever it would take, with Champion System passives, to get to at least 80% mitigation. I mean, they are Argonians

Quick to Mend
Increases healing received by 4%/6%/8%.

Without the boosts to Poison/Disease resistance and Swim Speed, I would keep the Max Health boost to 3%/4%/5% and go with making Quick to Mend 6%/9%/12%.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · July 2015

Thanks for bumping this.

I think the values you proposed are still too low. The return to stats from potion use should be at least 10% (so returning at least 2.5k from a 25k stat pool), health should be at least 6% to be in line with other racials, and bonus healing received should also be at least 12% (this is a handy but not very powerful ability).

They could also put a potion cooldown passive with the stat return, which would be nice. Right now, the long cooldown really hurts Argonians.

tinythinker · July 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Thanks for bumping this.

I think the values you proposed are still too low. The return to stats from potion use should be at least 10% (so returning at least 2.5k from a 25k stat pool), health should be at least 6% to be in line with other racials, and bonus healing received should also be at least 12% (this is a handy but not very powerful ability).

They could also put a potion cooldown passive with the stat return, which would be nice. Right now, the long cooldown really hurts Argonians.

I had the healing received bonus at 4/8/12% in some of the last threads I posted in a month or two ago on the topic, and even had the max health bonus at something like 5/7/10%, and that was without any other changes. But, given how things are going, I would take the smaller amounts. I mean, look at what we are getting for 2.1

Gruffysb16_ESO · July 2015

Didn't even know my thread was still active.

Personally I wish they would do away with the potion passive, it requires an item and have a 45 second cooldown and that's nothing to speak of the actual benifit the passive provides when you actually drink a potion which is very little.

I also dislike the swimming passive not simply because its almost uselss 98% of the time but because when you are in water no deeper than your waist you are just as slow as any other player which is about 5% of the time.
Its a nice fluff passive for lore but almost utterly pointless, besides the sped up swimming animation looks a bit strange too.

WyldfireWyrm · July 2015

Personally, I think they just need to get rid of racial passives all together. Use the lack of racial passives to bask in the joy that will stem from no more whining and no more questions on best race. People will actually play the race they like. And if they insist on some sort of racial passive, make it something trivial, such as reduced sprint cost, reduced potion cooldown, increased gold drop, etc.

Gruffysb16_ESO · July 2015

Yeah I would also be fine with aving no racial passives.

Another route would be to have a selection of different passives that fit the lore for a race and give the player the choice of which would best suit his character based upon what he wanted to do.