Any news on Argonians racial skill buffs?

Gruffysb16_ESO

Has there been any announcement on when Zen will look at making our racial skills viable?I love the looks and lore of the Argonians but as a spell caster ( or any other class) they truly suck.

I'm really torn at the moment and am considering ditching my cool looking lizard for a more practical race like high elf.
Its hard to ignore the huge benefits that races like the Altmer in terms of my class -9% magic recovery 10% extra mana and 6% extra damage. Our best passive imo 3% extra hp is overshadowed by both the Imperial and the Orcs which are both better.

At the moment I cant see any any reason to waste any of my skill points in any of our racials and I'm worried that my character will be somewhat gimped endgame because them.

What do you guys think?

ThatHappyCat

I think even if no buffs come our way it wouldn't be a problem. With soft capping and such racial benefits are going to be a pretty small thing, and at the moment I'm enjoying the "freedom" of ignoring our racials without feeling conflicted.

That said, I'm sure buffs will come eventually: there was talk of adding a stamina bonus to Amphibious (which unfortunately doesn't help much for magicka-based characters, and is probably going to be a tiny bonus like the +3% health for Argonian Resistance).

Gruffysb16_ESO

I didn't think that the racial skills are affected by the soft cap?

Even if they are though it means you can push an attribute like magika to the soft cap with the racial and then use the extra points you'd save to buff up your hp or stamina quite a lot.

The racial buffs just seem like a lot to me in some cases and I don't want to feel like I have choose between having the max spell power and less hp when I could have both with the Altmer race.

ThatHappyCat

Stuff like maximum magicka and magicka regeneration are affected by soft caps.

I'm not too concerned because it seems like active magicka restore, for example through the Resto staff's heavy attack, is the way to go at end game. Passive regeneration counts for very little.

Stuff like +% elemental damage is more significant but really, the most powerful magic attacks generally aren't elemental. The Dragon Knight seems to be the only class with a strong reliance on elemental skills (the Sorcerer's Storm Calling is good but not the best in terms of general DPS).

Gruffysb16_ESO

Thanks for the advice HappyCat feeling much less disposed to recycle my little lizard now

Still hope they give us at least one decent passive racial to drop points in though.

maganny

Agreed. The racials are boring (edit: not that useful) and need to be reworked.

Laura

Argonians were the most OP race in the game back when they had racial ultimates. HISTSKIN FTW. now we are in a bad way

Its not like they care about the lore - Argonians do not have health regen but khajit do. I always found that hilarious.

So just give us some plus Magicka or something. Maybe increased damage from stealth or increased stealth. Argonians are considered to be one of the best assassin races after all.

AshTal

I would like to see the Racial buff's checked out again. Some Races have much much better Racial buffs than others. Imperials have clearly the best with Altmer a close second while the Argonains and Bosmer are right at the bottom. I really like my Argonain but he is just weaker than the Altmer mage when stood next to him in PvP or on a Raid. Argonains need some love and hopefully before it's too late and they decide they can not change Racials because all the people who picked their Race based on Racials will be upset.

Nugeneration

I don't see the big deal with everyone wanting better racials. Can someone please explain it to me? I'm not trying to be rude about it, but I'm generally curious. All of the %increase and regen abilites are capped just the same end game.

So what if my Bosmer doesn't have any %increase to magic or regen? I'll cap it through gear/light armor spec the same way you put points into racials to hit the cap.

Just because some people get to put skill points into their racials to hit caps where others have to do it through armor skill lines I don't see the big deal. Everyone caps just the same in the end. In my opinion it doesn't matter one iota how it's done.

Back to my question though is their a legit reason people are wanting better %/regen racials? In the grand scheme of things I think that increased healing affect could have more pay off than the albeit useless stat increases.

JoxerHD

Nugeneration wrote: »

I don't see the big deal with everyone wanting better racials. Can someone please explain it to me?

I think the main problem lies in the fact a few races do not have a cappable stat as their racial, but instead a flat increase in dmg.
Some examples would be...
Altmer : Flat dmg increase to elemental attacks
Dunmer : Flat dmg increase for fire based attacks
Kahjiit : flat more dmg done when attacking from stealth
And another on Kahjiit : flat critical increase + flat dmg increase on critical hits. (afaik critical increase is cappable, but the flat dmg increase isn't)

Now compare this to for instance the Bosmer and Argonian racials, and you can see why some people are having trouble with the current situation and are asking for a more balanced set of racials.

Nugeneration

Outside of DK very few heavy hitting abilities are "fire".

Stealth can be used once afaik on a boss fight. If being able to vanish and re-open counts as stealth that happens so few times on boss fights I don't see it making a difference.

None of these really dictate an advantage to the degree that other classes will be left behind. Don't forget if you have a Argonian you also get the bonus of 6% healing received. So others can do a small %increased damage with some of their attacks, but you take an extra 6% healing always.

The racials are nice in their own ways. The way this game is designed a small % of extra damage on 1-2 skills on your action bar (outside of DK) that are then used depending on the situation at that will not skew numbers enough to warrent racial changes imo.

Just like that 6% increased healing received won't make Argonians the only/best tank after everyone begins hitting caps. Mountains out of molehills I say.

JoxerHD

Nugeneration wrote: »

Outside of DK very few heavy hitting abilities are "fire".

Stealth can be used once afaik on a boss fight. If being able to vanish and re-open counts as stealth that happens so few times on boss fights I don't see it making a difference.

PvE, yes, who cares?
PvP, different ballgame.

From what i derive from your text your comparing everything in a PvE aspect of the game, in which case I would agree with you, PvE is PvE, as long as the boss goes down you are a winner.

PvP however, these flat dmg increases are a completely different aspect, PvP is highly competitive and small bonusses such as this can mean a lot.

I also noticed you either completely ignored certain racials or simply had nothing to add, so i'll go for the latter.

Not to forget mention the "other" Kahjiit racial I mentioned, which gives a flat chance to critical and upto +15% more physical dmg on each critical.
+15% dmg, is a metric truckload of DPS simply given as a racial, especially in PvP.

edit : before anyone says anything, I actually play 2 Kahjiits, 1 being a NB and 1 a DK, their racials are great, but others such as Bosmer and Argonian need to be brought up to par.

Qyr

I really like the Argonians and I play them, regardless of her racial skills. They are simply the race which suits my own ways of thinking best.

However I do not feel that be have equal racials compared to other classes, I think they should work it over.

I'm not a fan of racial skills, a player should choose the race he really likes, and not the race which has the best stats/skills whatever for his choosen class and/or playstyle.

But if they do racial skills they should suit with the lore, so that the argonians should be the best assasins in the game or at least one of best, or they should have some bonus in magicka, something like that.

I would love it when the Argonians would have racials comparable to the Khajiit.

Edit: And what is the use of the faster swimspeed? Ok, perhaps it is nice for RP reasons, but slaughter fishes will kill you nevertheless... It has no use in combat, healing or whatever

Nugeneration

JoxerHD wrote: »

Nugeneration wrote: »

Not to forget mention the "other" Kahjiit racial I mentioned, which gives a flat chance to critical and upto +15% more physical dmg on each critical.
+15% dmg, is a metric truckload of DPS simply given as a racial, especially in PvP.

And receiving 6% increased healing at all times is a truck load of healing when/if being targeted by 2 or more healers. One has better sustain one has better burst. I fail to see how this is game breaking in a zerg style pvp environment such as eso.

If it promoted a more "arena" style game play or was balanced around and offered ranked 2v2-3v3 etc. racials might play a bit more of a role.

tinythinker

Another two cents on the topic:

I don't think modified racials are essential to play an Argonian, but having played as one and given that the developers are leaning toward the healing/Hist aspect of Argonian lore, there are two changes I think would make things interesting.

Much of the fun I've had with character design and development has come from discovering synergies. For example, use some heavy armor and Draconic Power passives with Argonian racial traits to buff the health and healing of your character:

Increased healing received: Draconic Power - "Burning Heart", Heavy Armor - "Rapid Mending", Argonian - "Quick to Mend".

Increased health regeneration + Increased health stat cap: Draconic Power - "Elder Dragon" and Heavy Armor - "Constitution" for health regen + Argonian - "Argonian Resistance" for increased health stat.

If you threw in a small health regeneration bonus to one of the Argonian traits the synergy would be even stronger, but if I could only pick two changes I would rather see these:

1. Add a bonus to healing cast by an Argonian to one of the racial traits. Given the lore being developed, while it makes sense that Argonians would have greater health and heal faster, it also makes sense that they would be able to share/impart some of that gift to others. This would greatly enhance the value of making their weapon of emphasis the restoration staff. Even though the leveling bonus is moot once characters get their weapon to level 50, it fits with the theme and gives Argonians a bit more usefulness as a restoration staff healer since they lack magicka pool and magicka regeneration bonuses.

This fits nicely with...

2. Change the restoration staff so that Cycle of Life offers bonus damage based on 5%/10% of the caster's overall health stat rather than an extra 1% per 10% of max health a caster currently possesses. This would benefit all races using a restoration staff, because currently (and logically) it has no major offensive ability other than the basic attack, which does comparable damage to a one-handed sword or axe. Given how long a full attack with a staff takes compared to such a melee weapon, increasing the damage with this passive makes a big difference. If 5%/10% bonus to weapon damage is too big for game balance (is it given the passive bonuses other quicker weapons can receive?), reduce it a little to something like 3%/6%. Either way this change would particularly benefit Argonians as they have a bonus to their maximum health stat and to health regen.

These small changes benefit any Argonian who casts class based or restoration staff healing spells targeting others, as well as those of any race wielding such a staff. They obviously don't benefit all Argonian builds the same way but the benefits do fit with the direction already pursued for this race. It also opens up different styles of build, for example, juicing up health and mana for an Argonian templar or providing an alternative build to a restoration staff healer of any class (with an extra incentive toward making that healer an Argonian).

I can think of a dozen little tweaks to skill lines that would benefit Argonians, but these really seem to match the strengths being emphasized and add some new twists to character design. Thanks for reading.

Prokofiev

I don't think the Argonian racials are that much worse than those of other races. For me, I found a way to make each one useful. I play an Argonian nightblade healer and I also use alchemy.

For the first racial, getting a boost to potions from both my class and the Argonian racial is pretty sweet. I really enjoy the swim speed boost as well, because I don't like to waste time moving around. While it isn't amazing, it's pretty unique as far as racials are concerned.

The max health and poison/disease racial is pretty standard as well; it's very comparable to the Dark Elf's fire resist + max magic bonus.

The last racial is actually my favorite because it works great for me based on my choices in building my character.

Basically, I hope they don't change the racials too much.

stevenyaub16_ESO

they shouldnt change the racials, but instead boost them, so the health becomes 2%/4%/6% instead.

the potion effectiveness also increases duration.

heals are 3%/6%/9%.

there problems solved. i would find those racials rather useful.

disexistencenub19_ESO

I'm surprised they didn't have a stealth bonus, to be quite honest. Especially after I keep hearing about it from npcs on how they are such good scouts and whatnot.

At least the racial abilities work for me somewhat anyways, as I'm heal based and use alchemy. I don't find them very appealing outside of that role though, unfortunately. I wouldn't mind a few bumps in some other area to make them on par with the others.

ThatHappyCat

Argonians are also supposed to have a calm mind that lends itself well to magic, they can't very well make it a total jack-of-all-trades.

Grayphilosophy

Qyr wrote: »

Edit: And what is the use of the faster swimspeed? Ok, perhaps it is nice for RP reasons, but slaughter fishes will kill you nevertheless... It has no use in combat, healing or whatever

Actually, I can confirm the swimspeed buff is highly effective for travelling and in PvP. the speed increase causes you to swim faster than regular running, effectively allowing you to travel faster over a moderate distance provided you have a source of water. Unless you have a mount of course.

For PvP, in Cyrodiil there are certain rivers and bodies of water with slaughterfish in, that the swimspeed allows you to cross without dying, effectively giving Argonians a very useful getaway tool. But again, provided there is a source of water.

I even once managed to get to the middle island where the imperial city is, unfortunately I couldn't get very far onto it because of invisible walls.

Diakos

Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »

Has there been any announcement on when Zen will look at making our racial skills viable?I love the looks and lore of the Argonians but as a spell caster ( or any other class) they truly suck.

I'm really torn at the moment and am considering ditching my cool looking lizard for a more practical race like high elf.
Its hard to ignore the huge benefits that races like the Altmer in terms of my class -9% magic recovery 10% extra mana and 6% extra damage. Our best passive imo 3% extra hp is overshadowed by both the Imperial and the Orcs which are both better.

At the moment I cant see any any reason to waste any of my skill points in any of our racials and I'm worried that my character will be somewhat gimped endgame because them.

What do you guys think?

Racials are one thing, I just hope Argonians will eventually get gear that doesn't look absolute rubbish.

AlexDougherty

Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »

Has there been any announcement on when Zen will look at making our racial skills viable?I love the looks and lore of the Argonians but as a spell caster ( or any other class) they truly suck.

I think they are a problem for an MMO, their traditional traits are unlikely to be given, especially as building underwater content for a single race would be time consuming and annoy everyone without a argonian.

The traits they have been given mean that you probably need a melee specialist who uses guerilla tactics near bodies of water, or they won't be worth the effort. Of course whether it's worth building said character is another question.

MoMoOG

I find it amusing that the two races (argonian and bosmer) that are perceived to have the weakest racials (though I would argonian racials are actually pretty good) also have the worst looking armor motifs.

merfpmerfinton

No one has seemed to mention the fact that Khajiit lost the +15% critical damage that was in carnage. It's now only 2/4/6% melee critical chance.

If you want to take advantage of the Khajiit racials, you're pretty much pigeon holed into making an assassin or a mdps.

ThatHappyCat

merfpmerfinton wrote: »

No one has seemed to mention the fact that Khajiit lost the +15% critical damage that was in carnage. It's now only 2/4/6% melee critical chance.

If you want to take advantage of the Khajiit racials, you're pretty much pigeon holed into making an assassin or a mdps.

It works with bows too. The description should say "phsyical crit chance".

AshTal

One of the issues with Argonians is the small scale of the benefits, I think all the Argonian percentages need to be checked. Greater benefit from potions, a 15% benefit on a potion is very small, 3% health is almost nothing and the healing received in un-noticeable.

tinythinker

Some further thoughts on Argonian passives...

There is synergy with the Nighblade passives, and to a lesser extent with Templar passives, Dragonknight passives, and Heavy Armor passives. But honestly I am not really sure how much some of these racials, Argonian or otherwise, really matter in practice. I’ve see no real difference in game play.

My Vet 2.99 Argonian, with 25 points in health and 24 in magicka, has naked stats of:

• Max Magicka: 1330 Magicka Regeneration: 55
• Max Heath: 1570 Health Regeneration: 33
• Max Stamina: 1090 Stamina Regeneration: 55

The figures for leveling stats are given as:

Base Stats

• Health: 150+20 per level gained (1130 at 50)+10 per VR gained (1220 at VR10)
• Magicka: 100+20 per level gained (1080 at 50)+10 per VR gained (1170 at VR10)
• Stamina: 100+20 per level gained (1080 at 50)+10 per VR gained (1170 at VR10)
• Spell Resistance: 120+20 per level gained (1100 at 50)

Gain per point spent (49 total)

• Health +15
• Magicka +10
• Stamina +10

So, leveling to 50 and choosing Health 25 times yields 1130 + 375, or 1505. With two veteran ranks for an additional +20, we reach 1525. That works out with my naked stat because if we do basic algebra, then 103% of A (unaided generic max health) is 1570, or 1.03 x A = 1570, so that A = 1524.27. Or more or less 1525 rounded up. In other words, if someone used a different race for the exact same build and gear, there would be a total of a 45 point difference. Honestly, as heavy as opponents hit at level 40, let alone at VR, this isn’t much.

If you went with all health for leveling or respec a non-Argonian at VR2 would be at 1715 and an Argonian with the full Argonian Resistance passive would be at 1715 x 1.03 or roughly 1766. In that case the advantage is 51 points. Going to VR10, the difference is about 53 points.

My recollection is that going with an all-magicka build with an Altmer or Breton the extra 10% to the magicka pool ought to get you an extra spell or two per typical fight, so it’s got some utility, but again it’s not a major factor in every battle unless you’ve got min-max obsession. It’s interesting to consider that you get +15 bonus for leveling with health and only +10 for leveling with magicka or stamina. I have assumed that this is because the developers saw a difference between landing a knockout punch to finish a fight early (that extra spell/melee attack or two) versus hanging around in a slugfest. I also assume this same logic is why Orsimer and Khajit get up to 15% increase in health regeneration in combat.

I think this is why some people see Argonian’s as weak if they aren’t Nightblades tanks in heavy armor wielding a restoration staff* (again, there is also some synergy with the Dragonknight and Templar classes). The 6% health regeneration does apply all the time, but when else is it going to be critical? Granted it is nice to heal faster between battles, but that is often only a matter of a few seconds. I can only guess that this reduction is supposed to balance out the 15% potion boost, but given the cool down time for potions (unless you have a set of gear items reducing those cool downs) there is a question of equivalence of effect in combat. That’s where the extra 6% healing received comes in. And that leaves disease resistance and swim speed to match the increased max stamina and reduced sprint speed for Orsimer or the stealth radius/damage and melee critical for Khajit.

Again, I’m not so sure that outside of very specific builds there is much significant advantage to any of these traits, nor am I worried about Argonians being over or under powered. I like playing my character and I see plenty of people choosing to play as Argonian. I won’t be unhappy at all if the racial traits stay as they are. But I do kind of see why some number crunchers aren’t thrilled with the lizards.




*And yes, I am tempted to roll an alt using this build. The heavy armor allows for some tanking options with a one-handed + shield and compliments the racial healing traits, the Nightblade skill lines augment/buff pretty much all Argonian traits involving health and potions, and going as a restoration staff healer allows amazing self-heals for solo play while the magicka regeneration from Nightblade skills/restoration staff heavy attacks makes for a solid group healer.

dodgehopper_ESO

MoMoOG wrote: »

I find it amusing that the two races (argonian and bosmer) that are perceived to have the weakest racials (though I would argonian racials are actually pretty good) also have the worst looking armor motifs.

Hey i really like argonian mesoamerican looking armor and weapons. Bosmer gear is pretty hideous for the most part though, i agree.

Personally, i feel argonian racials are good, but don't fully handle traditional histskin. They should have strong regen, which can be represented with the right skill choices.

tinythinker

Well, patch 1.2.3 saw some attention to racial bonuses. Might Argonians be in the next round of fixes?

Racial

• Rugged: This Nord passive has changed from an armor bonus to a damage reduction bonus that grants 2% (Rank I), 4% (Rank II), and 6% (Rank III) reduced damage.
  
  • Reduce Damage Taken is unaffected by Armor Overcharge and effects spell damage as well.
• Robust: This Khajiit, Nord, and Orc, passive bonus has been increased from 5% (Rank I), 10% (Rank II), and 15% (Rank III) to 10% (Rank I), 20% (Rank II), and 30% (Rank III).
• Swift: This Orc passive now also causes charge attacks to deal 2% (Rank I) 4% (Rank II) and 6% (Rank III) more damage.
• Vigor: This Wood Elf racial passive’s effectiveness has been increased by 50%.

While I still think my original suggestions, especially the idea of adding a bonus to healing cast by an Argonian in addition to healing received, I would also be happy with those recommending a straightforward buff like this:

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

they shouldnt change the racials, but instead boost them, so the health becomes 2%/4%/6% instead.

the potion effectiveness also increases duration.

heals are 3%/6%/9%.

there problems solved. i would find those racials rather useful.

Of course, having two VR Argonian characters, one of whom is a templar and the other a DK with a restoration staff, adding the bonus to healing cast *and* buffing the baseline bonus numbers would also be welcome.

I am less sold on my proposed buff to restoration staff damage than I was before though, yet I wouldn't turn it down either.

Junkogen

Wow, this was posted in April and still no buff or redesign? I'm pretty bummed about this. Every other race got some attention except Argonians. I've been sending feedback but it seems like the devs don't care.

Based on the lore, it would be great for them to get something like Stealthy. Argonians are supposed to be masters of guerrilla warfare. Their racials don't suggest that at all.

tinythinker

Junkogen wrote: »

Wow, this was posted in April and still no buff or redesign? I'm pretty bummed about this. Every other race got some attention except Argonians. I've been sending feedback but it seems like the devs don't care.

Based on the lore, it would be great for them to get something like Stealthy. Argonians are supposed to be masters of guerrilla warfare. Their racials don't suggest that at all.

Hmmm, maybe double the value of Quick to Mend when stealthed? At max that would go from 6% to 12%.

EDIT:

Or we could just overhaul/rename Quick to Mend. Here are two options that might be fun. One is a version of something I've previously suggested, another plays off of the stealth/guerrilla warfare theme.

Spirit of the Hist

I. Increases healing received by 2%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 3%.
II. Increases healing received by 4%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 6%.
II. Increases healing received by 6%. Increases healing cast on allies under 50% health by 9%.


Shadow Mender

I. Increases healing received by 2%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 3%.
II. Increases healing received by 4%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 6%.
II. Increases healing received by 6%. When stealthed, increased health recovery by 9%.