Sharpened Mace fixed in this update or not.

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

Sharpened Maces on a DW/2h setup atm ignore almost completely enemy armor. Is this fixed yet on PTS or it still exists?

Ezareth · July 2015

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

Ezareth · July 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

He hasn't posted the results yet, he did it last night. I'm awaiting the hard data for my own number crunching purposes.

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

He hasn't posted the results yet, he did it last night. I'm awaiting the hard data for my own number crunching purposes.

Since this is anecdotal and there isn't something posted with hard evidence, yet, I don't see why you snapped when I posted this thread. Anyway, if he is correct with the tests then nevermind the thread.

MrBeatDown · July 2015

Who cares about Ezareth's Test. He is not an employee of the company. When a Zos Employee decides to speak about it, then we will have creditable information. If Zos Refuses to talk about it, then it might be another one of those bugs that they "Dont Know How" to fix without furthing nerfing damage or causing other problems.

Ezareth · July 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

He hasn't posted the results yet, he did it last night. I'm awaiting the hard data for my own number crunching purposes.

Since this is anecdotal and there isn't something posted with hard evidence, yet, I don't see why you snapped when I posted this thread. Anyway, if he is correct with the tests then nevermind the thread.

Sorry, sore subject with me. I've been accused of being an "exploiter" because I use a 2 handed mace, despite my own belief that it wasn't bugged. A search of the forums finds a thread by someone who said they noticed their focus rating increased twice as much on equipping dual maces and said it was now providing 70% armor piercing but no one bothered to do any actual testing and I haven't found any hard evidence that this "bug" in fact exists. I'd be happy to see evidence to prove otherwise.

@Xael offered to test it late last night and confirmed this morning that it was working as indended and is working on a writeup (I'm assuming).

If I don't find his research to be convincing enough, then I'll perform my own testing and put and end to it.

SirAndy · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.
No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.
This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So in short, you don't know if it was fixed or not ...

Bashev · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

He hasn't posted the results yet, he did it last night. I'm awaiting the hard data for my own number crunching purposes.

Since this is anecdotal and there isn't something posted with hard evidence, yet, I don't see why you snapped when I posted this thread. Anyway, if he is correct with the tests then nevermind the thread.

Sorry, sore subject with me. I've been accused of being an "exploiter" because I use a 2 handed mace, despite my own belief that it wasn't bugged. A search of the forums finds a thread by someone who said they noticed their focus rating increased twice as much on equipping dual maces and said it was now providing 70% armor piercing but no one bothered to do any actual testing and I haven't found any hard evidence that this "bug" in fact exists. I'd be happy to see evidence to prove otherwise.

@Xael offered to test it late last night and confirmed this morning that it was working as indended and is working on a writeup (I'm assuming).

If I don't find his research to be convincing enough, then I'll perform my own testing and put and end to it.

I did some tests today and they lead me to believe otherwise. First of all if you add the second point of Piercing passive in Ritual (which atm doesn't work properly) you see that your Armor penetration rating increases by 1 point. Also your actual damage on an enemy increases by 0.07%. If you put full 100 Champion points it increases by this much...and the gain is about 0.5%.

That leads me to think that the actual Armor penetration rating is working properly. Now...if you add 2x Sharpened Maces and add a bit of armor you can end up with 40-60k Armor penetration rating. If this is correct then yes you are pretty much ignoring all enemy armor.

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

33k Armor penetration with DW shaprned Maces and 2 pieces of heavy armor is low. Try close to 40-50k.

Bashev · July 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

If you are 100% sure of this then nevermind the thread.

Btw can you please link me the forum thread with the test?

He hasn't posted the results yet, he did it last night. I'm awaiting the hard data for my own number crunching purposes.

Since this is anecdotal and there isn't something posted with hard evidence, yet, I don't see why you snapped when I posted this thread. Anyway, if he is correct with the tests then nevermind the thread.

Sorry, sore subject with me. I've been accused of being an "exploiter" because I use a 2 handed mace, despite my own belief that it wasn't bugged. A search of the forums finds a thread by someone who said they noticed their focus rating increased twice as much on equipping dual maces and said it was now providing 70% armor piercing but no one bothered to do any actual testing and I haven't found any hard evidence that this "bug" in fact exists. I'd be happy to see evidence to prove otherwise.

@Xael offered to test it late last night and confirmed this morning that it was working as indended and is working on a writeup (I'm assuming).

If I don't find his research to be convincing enough, then I'll perform my own testing and put and end to it.

I did some tests today and they lead me to believe otherwise. First of all if you add the second point of Piercing passive in Ritual (which atm doesn't work properly) you see that your Armor penetration rating increases by 1 point. Also your actual damage on an enemy increases by 0.07%. If you put full 100 Champion points it increases by this much...and the gain is about 0.5%.

That leads me to think that the actual Armor penetration rating is working properly. Now...if you add 2x Sharpened Maces and add a bit of armor you can end up with 40-60k Armor penetration rating. If this is correct then yes you are pretty much ignoring all enemy armor.

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

33k Armor penetration with DW shaprned Maces and 2 pieces of heavy armor is low. Try close to 40-50k.

I know it is low but it is absolutely enough because it is very difficult to get more than 35k armor resist. BTW I achieve 29k armor penetration with 1h/s.

Ezareth · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Where do you get 33K Armor penetration? And don't mention Focus Rating....

Did you hit someone with an unsharpened Mace with no armor peircing champion points and no points into the passive and Both naked and with armor then hit them again with a sharpened mace and all the piercing passives and you're hitting them the same on both?

I searched everywhere and didn't find anyone that actually confirmed this...just a bunch of people looking at their harven's and crying "bugged!".

glavius · July 2015

I did a test on pts (2.08) and 1 5% sharpened mace and dual wield passive ignored 27k armor.
So YES it is bugged on live. Haven't tested on new PTS yet.

Ezareth · July 2015

glavius wrote: »

I did a test on pts (2.08) and 1 5% sharpened mace and dual wield passive ignored 27k armor.
So YES it is bugged on live. Haven't tested on new PTS yet.

And Single Maces?

And how much did dual wield sharpened swords do in the same test?

Xael · July 2015

I am uploading a test video now that Ezareth will watch. It's thorough. I don't think the numbers on the sharpened trait are correct. I won't go so far to say something like 33k armor pen.

Ezareth did not err when he mentioned me earlier. My tests last night showed no bug but I went back again today and ran the same tests and its differently altogether. Ezareth is right to be suspicious of forum talk. There are a ton of rumors being spread that are not true at all. This is why I am here, trying to make sense of things and test stuff out.

timidobserver · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Yeh, people that use stam builds think it is fine to have more armor penetration than even the sturdiest tank has armor.

Ezareth · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Yeh, people that use stam builds think it is fine to have more armor penetration than even the sturdiest tank has armor.

No I don't think that is fine but then again the same level of penetration is possible with spell resistance as well.

I'm going to have to do a thorough test on my own to confirm everything.

"Trust, but verify" as the great leader once said.

Xael · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Yeh, people that use stam builds think it is fine to have more armor penetration than even the sturdiest tank has armor.

So you speak for everyone playing a stam build? Not everyone uses maces and not everyone knows or believes there is a bug involved. If you are going to speak here, try doing so intelligently. You are beginning to stink the place up with nonsense like this. I am uploading a video for @ezareth to watch right now. Unfortunately youtube is slow.

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

Bashev wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

This is a good example of a rumor turning into a full blown outcry with no one bothering to spend a few minutes of their time confirming it.

So 33k armor penetration is fine for you?

Xael wrote: »

I am uploading a test video now that Ezareth will watch. It's thorough. I don't think the numbers on the sharpened trait are correct. I won't go so far to say something like 33k armor pen.

Ezareth did not err when he mentioned me earlier. My tests last night showed no bug but I went back again today and ran the same tests and its differently altogether. Ezareth is right to be suspicious of forum talk. There are a ton of rumors being spread that are not true at all. This is why I am here, trying to make sense of things and test stuff out.

Thanks for your tests mate. Let's bump this up and get this fixed asap.

glavius · July 2015

dual wield sharpened swords=almost no penetration

Single sharpened mace is same as sharpened sword since it doesn't get the dual wield passive boost.

So 3 options atm for full penetration: dual wield with atleast 1 sharpened mace, 2h sharpened maul, or any sharpened weapon with alot of points in champ armor piercing.

Etaniel · July 2015

Tested or not, a heavy armor character with points allocated in extra armor with CP should not take 15k wrecking blows. (i take that dmg everyday)
Whether it's a bug or not, it's completely stupid

Akinos · July 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Tested or not, a heavy armor character with points allocated in extra armor with CP should not take 15k wrecking blows. (i take that dmg everyday)
Whether it's a bug or not, it's completely stupid

Agreed. Don't know why people are arguing whether or not's a bug. It's just downright stupid to be able to completely negate somebody's armor like that.

eliisra · July 2015

Akinos wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Tested or not, a heavy armor character with points allocated in extra armor with CP should not take 15k wrecking blows. (i take that dmg everyday)
Whether it's a bug or not, it's completely stupid

Agreed. Don't know why people are arguing whether or not's a bug. It's just downright stupid to be able to completely negate somebody's armor like that.

It's pretty irrelevant if it's a bug or just bad design. Needs fixing either way.

Player physical mitigation, is clearly not reducing the dmg the way it should against mace/maul with sharp. I'm consistently hitting 10-11k Critical Rush and 15-16k Wrecking Blows on guys in heavy armor + sword and shield, when I'm on my stam chars in PvP. This is not from stealth.

No one should do full dmg on heavy armor users, because of a simple weapon + trait combination (that majority would use anyway). It kind of removes the whole point of wearing heavy armor and having physical resistance.

What's there even to discuss? Do people actually think that full damage on "tank armor" is somehow indented?

Jeckll · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

kkampaseb17_ESO · July 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

Thanks for your numbers. Can someone test if this can be repeated on PTS or whether it has been fixed? A friend of mine asked this on ESO live and they claimed that it is fixed.

Xael · July 2015

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

danno8 · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

So by using 2 maces with sharpened trait and twin blade and blunt passive your damage went up by 60% compared to dual axes?

That makes it look like sharpened is very much bugged to me. Isn't that the bug every one is complaining about?

edit, you should try to use dual sharpened axes to complete the test.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · July 2015

Xael wrote: »

I ran a test against a v12 Bear in Cyrodiil.
All weapons are vr1 and blue quality and have the same top end damage. The only difference in damage will be the Twin Blade and Blunt passive and Sharpened Weapon trait when I use it.
First run I used non traited weapons. Dual wield axe because Twin Blade passive does not give it a damage increase. I got these numbers to be a base for what type of damage you should expect before the armor pen.

Axe - non trait
Mainhand: 1036 damage non crit hits
Offhand: 848

Next I use 2 maces that are not traited. This will show how much damage you should expect from the Twin Blade passive and whether or not this is somehow bugged out as one of the rumors says it is. With 2 points in Twin Blade I should have 20% Armor Pen with dual wield maces.

Mace - non trait
Mainhand: 1154
Offhand: 944

So my mainhand gained a whopping 118 damage and offhand gained 96.

Next I used 2 maces with the sharpened trait. This is another 5% per mace.

Mace - Sharpened
Mainhand: 1620
Offhand: 1326

Mainhand gained 466 damage and offhand gained 382.

This doesn't seem like the bug everyone is making it out to be.

So basicall with..

2x 1h mace = 20% armor pen you have around 10% more damage compared to axes.
2x 1h mace with sharpened trait (which should increase the armor ignored by 10%, for a total of 30%, since it's most likely calculated this way) you have a 60% damage increase compared to axes.

Doesn't that seem a little bit... strange?

Jeckll · July 2015

@Xael a damage increase of 56% doesnt seem strange to you? That's huge!
Mace with non-trait added 11% damage in your test.

Your testing just proves the insane penetration sharpened mace gives.

MCMancub · July 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

Isn't this from several, several months ago though? I performed this same test recently and did not come up with these numbers (using the armor penetration formula). You keep copy/pasting this in threads from here which makes me think you aren't the one who originally tested this and probably don't know if it still holds true. I hope to be able to test this on PTS soon to see how it looks compared to live, but it strikes me as odd that this old information keeps getting passed around for months now without ZOS saying a word about it and no other information cropping up.

With regards to those saying that no tank with armor should take that much damage, you fail to realize what armor is. Everything should have a counter. Armor counters physical attacks, armor penetration counters armor, and health counters armor penetration.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

This bug doesn't exist.

No testing has been shown that it does and recent testing done by @xael has shown that it is working as intended.

Calculation regarding 70% penetration:

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor mitigates 1% damage.
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction.
A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.
A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

Isn't this from several, several months ago though? I performed this same test recently and did not come up with these numbers (using the armor penetration formula). You keep copy/pasting this in threads from here which makes me think you aren't the one who originally tested this and probably don't know if it still holds true. I hope to be able to test this on PTS soon to see how it looks compared to live.

With regards to those saying that no tank with armor should take that much damage, you fail to realize what armor is. Everything should have a counter. Armor counters physical attacks, armor penetration counters armor, and health counters armor penetration.

Apart from the problem that armor pen basically comes for free and ignores way too much armor, meaning that you can't counter physical attacks with armor anymore, you're right.