Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

No. What ZoS is trying to do with the Imperial City is to bring PvE players and PvP players together. That is the point of Imperial city is to get PvE players in and realize hey they actually like PvP

I understand what you are saying. Really do.

But if someone not like broccoli, you simply do not force it down their throat every day and expect them to just suddenly like it.

No. No you don't.

Here is a quick quiz to see if this is being forced on you.


Can you choose not to play it if you don't want to?

Yes = It's not being forced on you.

CP5 wrote: »

WolffenBloodseeker wrote: »

Etharian wrote: »

ZOS dont give in to the carebears! we need this 100% to stay! stick to your guns!

Hold your ground PVPlayers! tonigh we dine in HELL!

If pvp'ers are so into the new stone system and lets say that no pve focused players enter the IC, how would you have any stones to fight over? As is I think the system is dependent on pve players getting stones so they can be ganked and then the pvp players can finally fight over the stones. Wouldn't pvp players like to, idk, pvp for their stones, rather than gank pve'ers?

As players move around the zone looking for other players to fight they will kill mobs that are in their way, thus generating stones.

AssaultLemming wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.

• The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.
• They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Where do the stones come from? Random question, but the stones are intended to be a currency for the IC and if you see the IC as pvp focused then the stones are a pvp currency. The stones from quest are given in safe boxes that can't be looted, so where do the stones for pvp come from? Not fighting other pvp players, but instead mobs. Which pvp player is looking forward to IC so they can grind mobs?

Unlikely, and this is my problem, the system is designed so that pve players go kill mobs and get stones, so that they can be killed by players better equip to fight other players, so that people who want pvp and rewards can get these stones. If they were awarded for pvp encounters and events so that people who fight mobs aren't the center of stone generation there would likely be less of an uproar.

You are thinking about it wrong. The system isn't designed for PvE players to farm it's designed for small groups of balanced players to mix PvE and PvP. What will mostly happen is we see small groups of 4 or 5 players who are mobile, clearing PvE mobs as they go. When two of these groups encounter each other battle will ensue, both groups will have stones collected from mobs that they cleared while moving. One group will die and lose their stones, while gaining stones from any enemy they killed (stones are mailed out I believe?). The winning group can then retreat to bank their stones or continue and risk losing them.

The problem here is that people are stuck in the mindset of being a PvE or PvP player, when really most people are both. If I'm seiging a keep I don't refuse to kill the guards because I'm too PvP for that. The same mindset will prevail here. The line between PvE and PvP will blur, people will develop builds suited to a mixed environment, PvE players will join forces with PvP players to form mixed groups, it won't be like you imagine where the PvE players are all grinding and the PvP players are hunting them. Those distinctions will no longer be relevant, everyone will kill mobs and try not to be killed...

That's what I predict anyway...

I don't see this happening at all, even though what you've described was pretty much what was depicted in the video they showed on the last ESO LIve. Here's why:

1) There definitely ARE 2 types of players - PvE and PvP - and you don't have to look further than this thread for proof. Sure, there are some players who do plenty of both, but they seem to be in a minority in the forums, so I don't expect to see many in-game.

2) PvE players, especially grinders, are all about efficiency, and from what I've read you're going to have max efficiency having 1-2 players working as far away from other players as they can, just like every other scenario in this game. The only time large group grinding was EVER efficient in ESO was the old Craglorn boss XP grind, and we all saw how hard ZoS nerfed that.

3) Thanks to the 4X multiplier mechanic, many PvE grinders are going to feel COMPELLED to roll with 10K stones. Yes, even though the danger of losing them will make them anxious as hell, the greed for loot trumps all. Which, of course, will make them attractive targets for....

4) PvP zergs. No, not "small groups of 4 or 5 players" as you stated, but BIG, NASTY ZERGS. I'm talking about groups of 20 or 30 guys, just like the ones that dominate Cyrodiil, mowing down anything in their way like an army of killer ants. ZoS has tried everything under the sun to break up zergs, and they just can't do it. Why? Because zerging is simply the most efficient way for PvPers to roll, even factoring in the reduced loot or AP.

This is obviously not the happy scenario painted by ZoS. Stone grinders are not only not going to be competitive in combat with the roving "killer ant" zergs, they're not even likely to try. Instead, I predict you're going to see PvEers move to "escape and evade" builds that focus on skills that help you detect the arrival of a zerg and GTFO as quick as you can. It's going to be like those posh British hunters chasing a poor fox, and about as fair.

Don't be surprised when the ganked foxes run right back to the forums to spit rage at this ill-considered mechanic!

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.

• The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.
• They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Where do the stones come from? Random question, but the stones are intended to be a currency for the IC and if you see the IC as pvp focused then the stones are a pvp currency. The stones from quest are given in safe boxes that can't be looted, so where do the stones for pvp come from? Not fighting other pvp players, but instead mobs. Which pvp player is looking forward to IC so they can grind mobs?

Unlikely, and this is my problem, the system is designed so that pve players go kill mobs and get stones, so that they can be killed by players better equip to fight other players, so that people who want pvp and rewards can get these stones. If they were awarded for pvp encounters and events so that people who fight mobs aren't the center of stone generation there would likely be less of an uproar.

You are thinking about it wrong. The system isn't designed for PvE players to farm it's designed for small groups of balanced players to mix PvE and PvP. What will mostly happen is we see small groups of 4 or 5 players who are mobile, clearing PvE mobs as they go. When two of these groups encounter each other battle will ensue, both groups will have stones collected from mobs that they cleared while moving. One group will die and lose their stones, while gaining stones from any enemy they killed (stones are mailed out I believe?). The winning group can then retreat to bank their stones or continue and risk losing them.

The problem here is that people are stuck in the mindset of being a PvE or PvP player, when really most people are both. If I'm seiging a keep I don't refuse to kill the guards because I'm too PvP for that. The same mindset will prevail here. The line between PvE and PvP will blur, people will develop builds suited to a mixed environment, PvE players will join forces with PvP players to form mixed groups, it won't be like you imagine where the PvE players are all grinding and the PvP players are hunting them. Those distinctions will no longer be relevant, everyone will kill mobs and try not to be killed...

That's what I predict anyway...

I don't see this happening at all, even though what you've described was pretty much what was depicted in the video they showed on the last ESO LIve. Here's why:

1) There definitely ARE 2 types of players - PvE and PvP - and you don't have to look further than this thread for proof. Sure, there are some players who do plenty of both, but they seem to be in a minority in the forums, so I don't expect to see many in-game.

2) PvE players, especially grinders, are all about efficiency, and from what I've read you're going to have max efficiency having 1-2 players working as far away from other players as they can, just like every other scenario in this game. The only time large group grinding was EVER efficient in ESO was the old Craglorn boss XP grind, and we all saw how hard ZoS nerfed that.

3) Thanks to the 4X multiplier mechanic, many PvE grinders are going to feel COMPELLED to roll with 10K stones. Yes, even though the danger of losing them will make them anxious as hell, the greed for loot trumps all. Which, of course, will make them attractive targets for....

4) PvP zergs. No, not "small groups of 4 or 5 players" as you stated, but BIG, NASTY ZERGS. I'm talking about groups of 20 or 30 guys, just like the ones that dominate Cyrodiil, mowing down anything in their way like an army of killer ants. ZoS has tried everything under the sun to break up zergs, and they just can't do it. Why? Because zerging is simply the most efficient way for PvPers to roll, even factoring in the reduced loot or AP.

This is obviously not the happy scenario painted by ZoS. Stone grinders are not only not going to be competitive in combat with the roving "killer ant" zergs, they're not even likely to try. Instead, I predict you're going to see PvEers move to "escape and evade" builds that focus on skills that help you detect the arrival of a zerg and GTFO as quick as you can. It's going to be like those posh British hunters chasing a poor fox, and about as fair.

Don't be surprised when the ganked foxes run right back to the forums to spit rage at this ill-considered mechanic!

Honestly you could be right, human nature being what it is.zerg vs zerg does sound quite likely if you look at the current state of Cyro right now. I guess time will tell...