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The Imperial City focus worries me a little.
AuldWolf
✭✭✭✭✭
I worry that ZeniMax are falling into the same pit that Carbine did with Wildstar. We already know that Wildstar is dead and we know why, it's making its last gasps for air now but ultimately it's already gone. The focus on forced grouping really hurt it. It seems that marketing people believe that this is where the money is, but everything I've read indicates the opposite.
I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I've seen a lot of people mention that they're not remotely interested in the Imperial City because it doesn't have anything for them. They -- as do I, admittedly -- turn their noses up at the idea of being forced to group with strangers. It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level. But they don't. I don't think that their marketing team understands that most people play this either solo or with a very small group of friends. The most common coupling of players I've seen in the game is a duo, and it's really not hard to understand why. Every Gamebryo engine game (thus, every Bethesda game) has had modders try to create a co-op mode for it. From Morrowind right up to Skyrim, even including the titles which weren't developed directly by Bethesda. What people wanted was a co-op Elder Scrolls.
Someone at ZeniMax Online Studios had their head screwed on right, because that's what well over 80~ per cent of ESO is. And that's where the success has come from. Though their marketing team has had me scratching my head. Epic raids! Loot! Amazing social group interactions! Big bosses! Et cetera. This isn't why most people seem to play The Elder Scrolls Online. It's more the lore and the chance to explore the world of Nirn more deeply, perhaps bringing along a friend for the adventure. Its staying power is in how storied it is, and how each zone is in itself an encapsulated story with substories within.
The reason most log in the next day isn't for that epix loot, but rather to see where the next step of the story they're on goes. Some of it has been engaging, some of it has been gripping! It's the writers of ESO who've kept the game afloat, whereas the more powerfully MMO-focused aspects are trying to sabotage it by holding its head under the water. No one really wanted another MMO. I think the market is saturated with and completely sick of MMOs at this point. What delighted everyone who played ESO is that it wasn't just another MMO, it was more a co-op RPG than anything else. An average one with good writing, yes, but do you even understand how rare that is?? Having hundreds of other people in a public dungeon and ruining immersion doesn't do a thing for the game, it does plenty to hurt it.
And yet... for some reason, ZOS is oblivious to this. The Imperial City content proves this. They don't seem to understand that no one wants this MMO they're making. No one wants another MMO. What people want are great co-op RPGs, and that's where the potential for ESO will always lie. Yes, a co-op group can sometimes be as big as five, but forcing that number on everyone is just going to alienate the vast majority of your players. They won't turn up on the forums in droves to shout and scream, though, they'll just give up and leave. They're used to not being catered to. ESO was one of the rare games that did, but now it might be walking a very dark, wrong path.
Here's what I think would help in the future:
* Private versions of public dungeons that allow for just the party to have an immersive dungeon-delving experience;
* Less of a focus on required level in all dungeon delves, allowing explorers to have more of an Elder Scrolls experience;
* Change up the forced-grouping dungeons so that they scale to the number of people entering (with a relevantly sane difficulty level);
* Consider adding a private instance option for the world outside of towns and cities.
The latter will be the most controversial amongst MMO fans, but the game is actually designed for it. And you have to decide one way or the other, really. I'm talking about instancing, of course. MMO fans hate instancing because it means that people they're pugging with may not be able to do the same content. As they may need to go back to, say, Haven in order to get supplies. Except whilst one person's Haven may be liberated, another's may still be occupied. The simple solution to this is to simply put your foot down and tell people who your game is focused at. It should be obvious, really, but I think it's necessary. And in doing so provide an option for private instancing of all content.
This way, if I want to tackle a dolmen solo or in a group of whatever size I want, I can. Same with world bosses. If I feel like being sociable, I can exit the private instance and socialise with people. I can tell you now that were you to do this, it would attract a lot more people to the game. You could sell it more as a co-op RPG with optional MMO elements.
I think you have to decide, ZeniMax. One way or the other you're going to lose a demographic. Is it going to be the bigger niche or the smaller amount of MMO players? And like I said, I know not many MMO players play this because the vast majority of MMO players don't want another MMO. WoW is the only MMO for them. Proof? Wildstar. Wildstar, Wildstar, Wildstar. It tried to go all the way with appealing to MMO gamers, and now it's a goner. ESO is still afloat, Wildstar isn't. At least ask yourselves why.
A lot of my favourite online games have died because of bad business decisions, I don't want to see that happen to this one, too. I don't usually talk out like this because I have social anxieties, but I feel compelled. I don't like seeing games I enjoy playing disappearing forever, getting sunsetted. And that's what's going to happen here, too. ESO isn't circling the drain, it's getting ready to do a kamikaze loop right down into that drain. The people keeping it alive are those who love the world, the content, and everything Elder Scrolls. It's not the WoW fans who want another forced group dungeon.
Note that I haven't begrudged the PvP fans here at all. I know that they're a minority, too, but I think that they might be a big enough niche to actually substantiate the effort being focused upon them. My biggest problem is with these forced grouping dungeons. That needs to stop. Right now.
I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I've seen a lot of people mention that they're not remotely interested in the Imperial City because it doesn't have anything for them. They -- as do I, admittedly -- turn their noses up at the idea of being forced to group with strangers. It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level. But they don't. I don't think that their marketing team understands that most people play this either solo or with a very small group of friends. The most common coupling of players I've seen in the game is a duo, and it's really not hard to understand why. Every Gamebryo engine game (thus, every Bethesda game) has had modders try to create a co-op mode for it. From Morrowind right up to Skyrim, even including the titles which weren't developed directly by Bethesda. What people wanted was a co-op Elder Scrolls.
Someone at ZeniMax Online Studios had their head screwed on right, because that's what well over 80~ per cent of ESO is. And that's where the success has come from. Though their marketing team has had me scratching my head. Epic raids! Loot! Amazing social group interactions! Big bosses! Et cetera. This isn't why most people seem to play The Elder Scrolls Online. It's more the lore and the chance to explore the world of Nirn more deeply, perhaps bringing along a friend for the adventure. Its staying power is in how storied it is, and how each zone is in itself an encapsulated story with substories within.
The reason most log in the next day isn't for that epix loot, but rather to see where the next step of the story they're on goes. Some of it has been engaging, some of it has been gripping! It's the writers of ESO who've kept the game afloat, whereas the more powerfully MMO-focused aspects are trying to sabotage it by holding its head under the water. No one really wanted another MMO. I think the market is saturated with and completely sick of MMOs at this point. What delighted everyone who played ESO is that it wasn't just another MMO, it was more a co-op RPG than anything else. An average one with good writing, yes, but do you even understand how rare that is?? Having hundreds of other people in a public dungeon and ruining immersion doesn't do a thing for the game, it does plenty to hurt it.
And yet... for some reason, ZOS is oblivious to this. The Imperial City content proves this. They don't seem to understand that no one wants this MMO they're making. No one wants another MMO. What people want are great co-op RPGs, and that's where the potential for ESO will always lie. Yes, a co-op group can sometimes be as big as five, but forcing that number on everyone is just going to alienate the vast majority of your players. They won't turn up on the forums in droves to shout and scream, though, they'll just give up and leave. They're used to not being catered to. ESO was one of the rare games that did, but now it might be walking a very dark, wrong path.
Here's what I think would help in the future:
* Private versions of public dungeons that allow for just the party to have an immersive dungeon-delving experience;
* Less of a focus on required level in all dungeon delves, allowing explorers to have more of an Elder Scrolls experience;
* Change up the forced-grouping dungeons so that they scale to the number of people entering (with a relevantly sane difficulty level);
* Consider adding a private instance option for the world outside of towns and cities.
The latter will be the most controversial amongst MMO fans, but the game is actually designed for it. And you have to decide one way or the other, really. I'm talking about instancing, of course. MMO fans hate instancing because it means that people they're pugging with may not be able to do the same content. As they may need to go back to, say, Haven in order to get supplies. Except whilst one person's Haven may be liberated, another's may still be occupied. The simple solution to this is to simply put your foot down and tell people who your game is focused at. It should be obvious, really, but I think it's necessary. And in doing so provide an option for private instancing of all content.
This way, if I want to tackle a dolmen solo or in a group of whatever size I want, I can. Same with world bosses. If I feel like being sociable, I can exit the private instance and socialise with people. I can tell you now that were you to do this, it would attract a lot more people to the game. You could sell it more as a co-op RPG with optional MMO elements.
I think you have to decide, ZeniMax. One way or the other you're going to lose a demographic. Is it going to be the bigger niche or the smaller amount of MMO players? And like I said, I know not many MMO players play this because the vast majority of MMO players don't want another MMO. WoW is the only MMO for them. Proof? Wildstar. Wildstar, Wildstar, Wildstar. It tried to go all the way with appealing to MMO gamers, and now it's a goner. ESO is still afloat, Wildstar isn't. At least ask yourselves why.
A lot of my favourite online games have died because of bad business decisions, I don't want to see that happen to this one, too. I don't usually talk out like this because I have social anxieties, but I feel compelled. I don't like seeing games I enjoy playing disappearing forever, getting sunsetted. And that's what's going to happen here, too. ESO isn't circling the drain, it's getting ready to do a kamikaze loop right down into that drain. The people keeping it alive are those who love the world, the content, and everything Elder Scrolls. It's not the WoW fans who want another forced group dungeon.
Note that I haven't begrudged the PvP fans here at all. I know that they're a minority, too, but I think that they might be a big enough niche to actually substantiate the effort being focused upon them. My biggest problem is with these forced grouping dungeons. That needs to stop. Right now.
12
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Akavir_Sentinel✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO is not, and was not meant to be, Skyrim 2, Skyrim Online, or Skyrim With Friends. If you want a single player RPG experience, then by all means go back to Skyrim. This is an MMORPG, meaning there are others playing it besides you and your 3 buddies. The servers can only barely handle the load as it is, and you want everyone to be able to have their own private instance? No. Adding 500,000 private instances to the server would bring it to it's knees.
Also, instanced zones, dungeons, delves, etc... would disrupt the economy. You and your buddies would have all of the resources to yourself to farm with zero competition from others.9 -
Messy1✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm really excited about the Imperial city. At first look, it does seem like there might be some forced group mechanics, but idk how much of the PvP realm the OP has experienced because good grouping techniques are essential to achieve PvE and PvP objectives in Cyrodil. it's going to be fun. As lso don't knock it til you've tried it.
0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level."
This is the truthiest truth ever uttered. If you can see this, and I can see this, and loads of other players can see this.... why can't ZoS? Just tonight I made it (solo!) all the way to the 2nd boss in Veteran Fungal Grotto, but then THIS unbreakable CC happened:
Why does ZoS insist on torturing solo PvEers with Veteran Boss mechanics that can't be beat without a group? Would it really be such a big deal to allow Break Free to be used when the group size is only one player?
Edited by Emma_Overload on July 21, 2015 3:15AM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE6 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »"It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level."
This is the truthiest truth ever uttered. If you can see this, and I can see this, and loads of other players can see this.... why can't ZoS? Just tonight I made it (solo!) all the way to the 2nd boss in Veteran Fungal Grotto, but then THIS unbreakable CC happened:
Why does ZoS insist on torturing solo PvEers with Veteran Boss mechanics that can't be beat without a group? Would it really be such a big deal to allow Break Free to be used when the group size is only one player?
This is satire, right?
With some of the things people have been posting in the past few days it's getting hard to tell.6 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »"It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level."
This is the truthiest truth ever uttered. If you can see this, and I can see this, and loads of other players can see this.... why can't ZoS? Just tonight I made it (solo!) all the way to the 2nd boss in Veteran Fungal Grotto, but then THIS unbreakable CC happened:
Why does ZoS insist on torturing solo PvEers with Veteran Boss mechanics that can't be beat without a group? Would it really be such a big deal to allow Break Free to be used when the group size is only one player?
This is satire, right?
With some of the things people have been posting in the past few days it's getting hard to tell.
No, and I don't even understand your point. Care to elaborate?
#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm...I'll just leave this here.Wikipedia wrote:Poe's law is an internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extremism are indistinguishable from sincere expressions of extremism.[1][2] Poe's Law implies that parody will often be mistaken for sincere belief, and sincere beliefs for parody2 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I worry that ZeniMax are falling into the same pit that Carbine did with Wildstar. We already know that Wildstar is dead and we know why, it's making its last gasps for air now but ultimately it's already gone. The focus on forced grouping really hurt it. It seems that marketing people believe that this is where the money is, but everything I've read indicates the opposite.
I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I've seen a lot of people mention that they're not remotely interested in the Imperial City because it doesn't have anything for them. They -- as do I, admittedly -- turn their noses up at the idea of being forced to group with strangers. It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level. But they don't. I don't think that their marketing team understands that most people play this either solo or with a very small group of friends. ...
Imperial City is the first content addition since launch that has been appealing to me.
PvP is content that I can do solo or with my girlfriend.
Craglorn, Trials, Undaunted Dungeons -- it's content neither of us have done.
Like your idea of dungeons scaling to the amount of people entering. It would increase PvE options for people."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm...I'll just leave this here.Wikipedia wrote:Poe's law is an internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extremism are indistinguishable from sincere expressions of extremism.[1][2] Poe's Law implies that parody will often be mistaken for sincere belief, and sincere beliefs for parody
Are you saying that I'm an extremist? I don't get it. The OP made a number of points that I happen to agree with, and I posted proof of an in-game incident to illustrate one of those points. What's extreme about that? That screenshot was from a couple of hours ago, by the way. Since I knew I was about to die in an unbreakable CC, I figured I might as well snap a selfie for posterity, LOL.
This crap happens all the time when attempting to solo Vet content, and it's very annoying. You should try it yourself sometime... if your skills are up to it.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE2 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Endgame content isn't meant to be soloed...
Your opinion on it is shared by such a small minority and is so out of touch with how a MMO functions that yes, it appears to be an extreme point of view.4 -
Celestrael✭✭✭First time MMORPG players really don't understand how MMORPGs work, which I think is the source of most of the complaining on these forums. This isn't a single player game, wasn't designed as one, and will never be one. if you don't want to play with other people, you should wait for the next single player Elder Scrolls title to come out. Or even better, you should try out the older titles, because most people have only played Skyrim which isn't the first nor would I even consider it the best Elder Scrolls title. Give Oblivion a try!Celestrael: 45 Imperial Vampire - Templar Magicka Tank
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Aldmeri Dominion - PS4: North America
Looking for other gaymers on PS4 NA Aldmeri Dominion, feel free to add me! PSN: Celestrael6 -
RazzPitazz✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Hmm...I'll just leave this here.Wikipedia wrote:Poe's law is an internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extremism are indistinguishable from sincere expressions of extremism.[1][2] Poe's Law implies that parody will often be mistaken for sincere belief, and sincere beliefs for parody
Are you saying that I'm an extremist? I don't get it. The OP made a number of points that I happen to agree with, and I posted proof of an in-game incident to illustrate one of those points. What's extreme about that? That screenshot was from a couple of hours ago, by the way. Since I knew I was about to die in an unbreakable CC, I figured I might as well snap a selfie for posterity, LOL.
This crap happens all the time when attempting to solo Vet content, and it's very annoying. You should try it yourself sometime... if your skills are up to it.
He is saying it is impossible to tell whether you are serious or not based on your initial post. In fact I'm pretty certain that's exactly what he said initially. Basically your initial post seemed ridiculous to him, ergo it can be mistaken as satire.
Quite frankly I agree. It's called a group dungeon. It's designed for groups. Yes, it's a big deal to ditch group design for content designed for groups, otherwise it's just a giant dungeon That you can bring friends into.PC NA
VR1 - Jar'eed - Khajiit Dragon Knight - AD
VR1 - Broad Tail - Argonian Templar - EP
All-Star Crafter Guild2 -
firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »ESO is not, and was not meant to be, Skyrim 2, Skyrim Online, or Skyrim With Friends. If you want a single player RPG experience, then by all means go back to Skyrim. This is an MMORPG, meaning there are others playing it besides you and your 3 buddies. The servers can only barely handle the load as it is, and you want everyone to be able to have their own private instance? No. Adding 500,000 private instances to the server would bring it to it's knees.
Also, instanced zones, dungeons, delves, etc... would disrupt the economy. You and your buddies would have all of the resources to yourself to farm with zero competition from others.
Couldn't be more wrong. This is an Elder Scrolls game, and is meant to draw that audience. It may fall short of Skyrim with friends because of limitations inherent to MMOs, but this is what the majority of players coming to this game expected. They expected to be able to play a TES game with their friends, not with random strangers who happen to be at the same level of advancement.
Zones could not be realistically instanced, but almost everything else could (how necessary that is may be debatable). I agree (and have suggested myself) that dungeons should scale to level and quantity of people in the party. "Me and a buddy" should be just as viable a dungeon group as "Five or six of us."4 -
Drake_Fury✭✭✭I can't disagree more about the fact that forced grouping is bad. Grouping is what makes an mmo, an mmo. Monster levels scaling with amount of people in the group is more akin to games like Diablo or Borderlands, where you have 1-8 people in a game. ESO was always marketed as an mmo, and it has revolutionary aspects that no other mmo have, making it unique.
WoW was the first mmo (or at least the first I can think of) to introduce "solo levelling to level cap". To me, WoW, by it's monstrous success, killed the mmo genre. Being able to solo to max level became a norm, and now, sadly, every mmo seems to think that it's the way to go. Now, you see people who've reached level 50 and have no idea of what a tank, a healer or a DD (or DPS) is. It was not possible in the time of Everquest or the 6 first years of Final Fantasy XI. People learned to play with a team at level 10, because they had no choice. That led to long-lasting friendships, players striving to get better to help their friends accomplish stuff, or accomplishing it themselves. Trust me, in FFXI, if you saw a lvl 75 red mage who did not cast refresh or haste, he would get booted pretty quickly after being told to use them 2 or 3 times and not listening. Because at that time, MMOs were all about working togheter. It was not about PvP, it was not about DPS meters to show epeen, it was about covering your teammates's weaknesses, and them covering yours.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with that post, but i'm adamant about it, Forced grouping, in a mmo, is good, and should even be more present than it is in ESO.Edited by Drake_Fury on July 21, 2015 6:11AM7 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem with ESO isn't so much the lack of content for one playstyle, it's that it seems to be graded.
Level 1-VR10 - solo/duo
VR11-VR14 - group PvE
VR14+ - PvP and group PvE
They just need to spread the balance out more.
Group dungeons shouldn't have solo versions, because that is not what group dungeons are designed for, but there should be some other solo/duo endgame content. I'm hoping Orsinium/Wrothgar is the solution to that requirement; that is what it has been billed as, but to fulfil the criteria it needs some repeatable solo/duo PvE content.
I would say though that I also don't like the seeming group focus of Imperial City. I was hoping it would be a solo/duo area, but the mob density looks too high for that. Although maybe there will be enough (friendly) players around that it will be possible to get around without a group.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp4 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
There are several games, and one in particular that is far larger than ESO where resource nodes are per-player and their economies are fine.Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »You and your buddies would have all of the resources to yourself to farm with zero competition from others.
There is nothing inevitable about MMOs that forces competition every where you turn, some games focus on COOPERATION not COMPETITION and are better for it than games without it.
Edited by KerinKor on July 21, 2015 10:25AM0 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you, OP.
Elder Scrolls Online is an MMORPG set in the Elder Scrolls Universe. It is not a co-op version of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind or anything like that. That isn't what they are going for here.
Now, whilst I agree that there a huge amount of this game that can be played solo, in my humble opinion that is where they took a wrong direction. They should have put more MMO mechanics and things into this rather than less. Because at the end of the day, this game isn't Elder Scrolls VI either.
I like grouping up in this game. I've had a lot of fun from that. I would like them to add more of that and less play alone. I personally am really looking forward to grouping with Guild mates for Imperial City.Sweetrolls for all!
Christophe Mottierre - Breton Templar with his own whole darn estate! Templar Houses are so 2015. EU DC
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Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I worry that ZeniMax are falling into the same pit that Carbine did with Wildstar. We already know that Wildstar is dead and we know why, it's making its last gasps for air now but ultimately it's already gone. The focus on forced grouping really hurt it. It seems that marketing people believe that this is where the money is, but everything I've read indicates the opposite.
WildStar's problem was not having enough content for casual crowd. Yes, contrary to popular belief, both are essential to MMOs well-being.
"Forced" grouping never was the problem, since Massive Multiplayer Online RPGers tend to enjoy grouping. Of course games require solo content as well, which WildStar had (just not one that was appealing enough).I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I've seen a lot of people mention that they're not remotely interested in the Imperial City because it doesn't have anything for them. They -- as do I, admittedly -- turn their noses up at the idea of being forced to group with strangers. It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level. But they don't. I don't think that their marketing team understands that most people play this either solo or with a very small group of friends. The most common coupling of players I've seen in the game is a duo, and it's really not hard to understand why. Every Gamebryo engine game (thus, every Bethesda game) has had modders try to create a co-op mode for it. From Morrowind right up to Skyrim, even including the titles which weren't developed directly by Bethesda. What people wanted was a co-op Elder Scrolls.
As of right now, we can determine that 52% of people with 6.7% margin of error (making the real number between 45.3% and 58.7%) plan on purchasing this DLC. 24% have outright stated they won't purchase it (17.3%-30.7% by same margin of error).*
* Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
To follow up, you have no data implicating that "most people" play only solo or with very small group of friends, or that they enjoy doing so.
That is all speculation from your part, and I have a widely different view of the common MMO gamer, a view that gets reinforced every time I log in and speak with people.
What you also fail to mention (along with your source to "people" wanted co-op Elder Scrolls) is that there is a vocal opposition that knows adding co-op into Elder Scrolls would lower the quality of the single player game.
I would personally never purchase a co-op Elder Scrolls game, simply on the basis that I don't have enough friends interested in that kind of stuff and I prefer my single player Elder Scrolls be relaxing and about immersing myself in the world and exploring, none of this co-op *** & giggles bs.
Also, dungeons scaling to number of players would defeat the whole purpose grouping, dungeons and the challenge in them.
It is also a far cry from someone claiming to be an Elder Scrolls fan, since everyone knows the series has been going downhill partly to the added level scaling (which they toned down a bit in Skyrim, but not enough when compared to classic such as Morrowind).Someone at ZeniMax Online Studios had their head screwed on right, because that's what well over 80~ per cent of ESO is. And that's where the success has come from. Though their marketing team has had me scratching my head. Epic raids! Loot! Amazing social group interactions! Big bosses! Et cetera. This isn't why most people seem to play The Elder Scrolls Online. It's more the lore and the chance to explore the world of Nirn more deeply, perhaps bringing along a friend for the adventure. Its staying power is in how storied it is, and how each zone is in itself an encapsulated story with substories within.
And this here is the problem. 80% of ESO is just mindless & boring questing. There's no open world PvP to make the journey to max level interesting, and especially Veteran Rank content is what finally puts the nail into the coffin for many people, before they ever reach maximum level.
You see, ESO's problem is the reverse of WildStar's. Too much content for casual players, not enough for hardcore ones.
Which is why the "success" you mention really turned out to be a B2P transition.
I personally went through six or seven end game raiding guilds, which all died due to lack of interesting, rewarding end game content (raids, specifically).
It's cool casual players have content that appeals to them, and even I found questing enjoyable at times. But lets not pretend that you can make a successful MMO without keeping the hardcore audience which is what keeps the game in the loops, promotes it via youtube, twitch and so on and forms communities in game.The reason most log in the next day isn't for that epix loot, but rather to see where the next step of the story they're on goes. Some of it has been engaging, some of it has been gripping! It's the writers of ESO who've kept the game afloat, whereas the more powerfully MMO-focused aspects are trying to sabotage it by holding its head under the water. No one really wanted another MMO. I think the market is saturated with and completely sick of MMOs at this point. What delighted everyone who played ESO is that it wasn't just another MMO, it was more a co-op RPG than anything else. An average one with good writing, yes, but do you even understand how rare that is?? Having hundreds of other people in a public dungeon and ruining immersion doesn't do a thing for the game, it does plenty to hurt it.
The reason most log in the next day isn't for that "epix loot", because that "epix loot" doesn't exist.
Your "Best in Slot" gear is purchased straight off the guild kiosk right when you reach maximum level in this MMO, which is a huge problem and leaves people logging in for what, crafting writs & vet daily (for the distant hope that those gold keys purchase something useful after Imperial City.And yet... for some reason, ZOS is oblivious to this. The Imperial City content proves this. They don't seem to understand that no one wants this MMO they're making. No one wants another MMO. What people want are great co-op RPGs, and that's where the potential for ESO will always lie. Yes, a co-op group can sometimes be as big as five, but forcing that number on everyone is just going to alienate the vast majority of your players. They won't turn up on the forums in droves to shout and scream, though, they'll just give up and leave. They're used to not being catered to. ESO was one of the rare games that did, but now it might be walking a very dark, wrong path.
I think it is time for you to come into terms with the fact that this is a MMO, not a solo player or co-op game.
Just like World of Warcraft is a MMO, not a Real-Time Strategy game like its predecessors.
You also again lack the source for your statement of "no one wants another MMO". Many people love MMOs. You don't. Simple as that.
Again, stating it will alienate "majority of players" is just your speculation with no empirical evidence behind it.
Personally, Imperial City is the reason I decided to renew my ESO+ subscription and start grinding CPs again.
You may see just a dark path, but I finally see some light at the end of that path and I've been extremely pessimistic about this game for the past year and a half.Here's what I think would help in the future:
* Private versions of public dungeons that allow for just the party to have an immersive dungeon-delving experience;
* Less of a focus on required level in all dungeon delves, allowing explorers to have more of an Elder Scrolls experience;
* Change up the forced-grouping dungeons so that they scale to the number of people entering (with a relevantly sane difficulty level);
* Consider adding a private instance option for the world outside of towns and cities.
Here's what you already have:- 15 Group Dungeons outside Craglorn for just you and your group to "immerse" yourself in. Plenty more in Craglorn, for just you and your group to "immerse yourself in".
- An almost classic Elder Scrolls experience when it comes to scaling. TES 3: Morrowind, considered by many to be the best Elder Scrolls game to date had no level scaling, at all. Every dungeon & area you entered, there was a sense of danger, not knowing how strong enemies you'd face. Level scaling dumbs down the game by incredible amounts, diminishes challenge & sense of danger and is still unarguably one of the most hated features of Oblivion & Skyrim (latter started toning the scaling down again). You say you want to explore? Cool, I want to explore too, but I also want to feel excited while doing so.
One thing I ask of you is to stop using the phrase "Elder Scrolls experience" when talking about level scaling, that is downright insulting.
Also as mentioned above, dungeon scaling only diminishes the challenge inside and makes it feel generic and cheap. It will also make sure people just do what is easiest: run in, kill everything, run out - rather than spending time gathering a group to delve into that dangerous dungeon.
You are not dovahkiin in this game, try to understand this.
Try to understand as well that this is a MMO, the whole point is playing with others.
It seems to me like you'd be happier playing Skyrim right now.The latter will be the most controversial amongst MMO fans, but the game is actually designed for it. And you have to decide one way or the other, really. I'm talking about instancing, of course. MMO fans hate instancing because it means that people they're pugging with may not be able to do the same content. As they may need to go back to, say, Haven in order to get supplies. Except whilst one person's Haven may be liberated, another's may still be occupied. The simple solution to this is to simply put your foot down and tell people who your game is focused at. It should be obvious, really, but I think it's necessary. And in doing so provide an option for private instancing of all content.
You must not be aware that this game did have such instancing at one point, where players went into their separate instances and others couldn't see them anymore. This was one of the biggest complaints from players & critics alike, and has since been fixed for the large part by developers.This way, if I want to tackle a dolmen solo or in a group of whatever size I want, I can. Same with world bosses. If I feel like being sociable, I can exit the private instance and socialise with people. I can tell you now that were you to do this, it would attract a lot more people to the game. You could sell it more as a co-op RPG with optional MMO elements.
And you would lose every MMO player who bought the MMO (not co-op RPG).
You'd get people demanding refunds and game shutting down.
There are far less painful ways of killing a MMO.I think you have to decide, ZeniMax. One way or the other you're going to lose a demographic. Is it going to be the bigger niche or the smaller amount of MMO players? And like I said, I know not many MMO players play this because the vast majority of MMO players don't want another MMO. WoW is the only MMO for them. Proof? Wildstar. Wildstar, Wildstar, Wildstar. It tried to go all the way with appealing to MMO gamers, and now it's a goner. ESO is still afloat, Wildstar isn't. At least ask yourselves why.
Wait, what? MMO players don't want MMOs?
Surely you're just trolling at this point.
You also failed to mention the successful MMOs (apart from WoW), such as FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2 etc. which are all turning a profit.
Also, WildStar (with which you seem to have an obsession) is still around as F2P, just like ESO is still around as B2P.A lot of my favourite online games have died because of bad business decisions, I don't want to see that happen to this one, too. I don't usually talk out like this because I have social anxieties, but I feel compelled. I don't like seeing games I enjoy playing disappearing forever, getting sunsetted. And that's what's going to happen here, too. ESO isn't circling the drain, it's getting ready to do a kamikaze loop right down into that drain. The people keeping it alive are those who love the world, the content, and everything Elder Scrolls. It's not the WoW fans who want another forced group dungeon.
I wonder why a person like you plays social, online games in the first place.
Everything you've said screams of "I'd be happier playing Skyrim right now".
My advice: don't play MMOs if you don't enjoy MMOs.
Signed,
Huge Elder Scrolls fan (#TeamMorrowind)
MMO enthusiast (WoW, GW, LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO)Edited by DDuke on July 21, 2015 11:16AM5 -
P3ZZL3✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don;t know about anyone else, but before I bought this game Jan. 3rd this year, I'd never even heard of Skyrim. I'd heard of MMO's like WOW, but that was all.
I came here because a friend told me "I HAD to play it!!!" and after looking in to it, the Trade Mechanics, Guilds and Group element, as well as PVP, were the things that pushed me into getting it. Oh, and the fact it was going to cost me a £30 for 3 mths gameplay...so sure, why not
Nothing to do with Lore, immersion, hats, etc.
Maybe I'm the only person like this? *shrugs*Edited by P3ZZL3 on July 21, 2015 10:46AMCP561 Redguard | Jabsy Templar | Stamina Build
CP561 Breton | Jesus Beam Templar | Magicka Build Forever!
CP561 Naked Nord | Tanky DK | Stamigicka Build
✭✭✭ Check ESO Server Status Live!: http://eso.webhub.eu/ ✭✭✭1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The bottom line is this game has been out a year, it is what it is and all the QQ is not going to drastically change it.
Either you like the game or you move on.
Grouping, especially with a guild will get you new buddies along with the ones you already have.
2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Don;t know about anyone else, but before I bought this game Jan. 3rd this year, I'd never even heard of Skyrim. I'd heard of MMO's like WOW, but that was all.
I came here because a friend told me "I HAD to play it!!!" and after looking in to it, the Trade Mechanics, Guilds and Group element, as well as PVP, were the things that pushed me into getting it. Oh, and the fact it was going to cost me a £30 for 3 mths gameplay...so sure, why not
Nothing to do with Lore, immersion, hats, etc.
Maybe I'm the only person like this? *shrugs*
Sounds like the same story of how I got into MMOs.
Friends told me to play WoW, and so it began...
I had literally no idea what a MMO even was back then 0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. If anything, this game needs more MMO features. More sandbox, more letting players interact with each other in emergent ways (like the TV system), more worthwhile rewards beyond Quest #1273897 and interesting mechanics to acquire these rewards.
I could see them add instanced versions of delves as some kind of Undaunted solo pledge, as those have been designed with 1-2 players in mind anyway and offering a high level scaled version would keep them meaningful in higher levels, but beyond that, no.
Also, #TeamMorrowind.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
asteldian✭✭✭✭I think adding story modes of the Trials would actually be good - Rift did this, it was nothing like the actual raids, but it was small 1-2 man content with a questline that gave background lore into the tale which then led to the raid itself making sense beyond 'here is a zone to raid'0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »"It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level."
This is the truthiest truth ever uttered. If you can see this, and I can see this, and loads of other players can see this.... why can't ZoS? Just tonight I made it (solo!) all the way to the 2nd boss in Veteran Fungal Grotto, but then THIS unbreakable CC happened:
Why does ZoS insist on torturing solo PvEers with Veteran Boss mechanics that can't be beat without a group? Would it really be such a big deal to allow Break Free to be used when the group size is only one player?- Group
- Dungeon
OP, the short version, which has already been covered:- Take the 'M' out of MMO and you just end up with 'O.'
Edited by Merlin13KAGL on July 21, 2015 11:23AMJust because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think adding story modes of the Trials would actually be good - Rift did this, it was nothing like the actual raids, but it was small 1-2 man content with a questline that gave background lore into the tale which then led to the raid itself making sense beyond 'here is a zone to raid'
I totally agree, though Rift wasn't the first one doing this.
Who remembers Molten Core attunement quest etc from WoW?
Good old times.0 -
Anzriel✭✭✭✭Sorry OP, I disagree, while I think adding solo content from time to time is hardly a bad thing, especially with a farm-able reward and interesting story group content IS important to a game. Many people I know love dungeons/pvp and I think if you only added solo content, ESO would die.
Also I must also agree with DDuke. You literally have nothing to back up your claims about what a 'vast majority' want. Wildstar failed because it was managed poorly, not because it didn't have enough solo content, so your main point is moot. WoW is still at what, 7 million subscribers? It may not dominate as it once did, but it is still #1. Guild Wars 2 has fractals and dungeons, and is doing quite well as well. One of the biggest selling points of it's new expansion? 'Challenging GROUP content". Quite a few people bought it solely for that reason. Perhaps MMOs just really aren't your thing?Edited by Anzriel on July 21, 2015 11:32AM0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I worry that ZeniMax are falling into the same pit that Carbine did with Wildstar. We already know that Wildstar is dead and we know why, it's making its last gasps for air now but ultimately it's already gone. The focus on forced grouping really hurt it. It seems that marketing people believe that this is where the money is, but everything I've read indicates the opposite.
WildStar's problem was not having enough content for casual crowd. Yes, contrary to popular belief, both are essential to MMOs well-being.
"Forced" grouping never was the problem, since Massive Multiplayer Online RPGers tend to enjoy grouping. Of course games require solo content as well, which WildStar had (just not one that was appealing enough).I wasn't going to say anything about it, but I've seen a lot of people mention that they're not remotely interested in the Imperial City because it doesn't have anything for them. They -- as do I, admittedly -- turn their noses up at the idea of being forced to group with strangers. It'd be better if the dungeons scaled to the amount of people entering along with their level. But they don't. I don't think that their marketing team understands that most people play this either solo or with a very small group of friends. The most common coupling of players I've seen in the game is a duo, and it's really not hard to understand why. Every Gamebryo engine game (thus, every Bethesda game) has had modders try to create a co-op mode for it. From Morrowind right up to Skyrim, even including the titles which weren't developed directly by Bethesda. What people wanted was a co-op Elder Scrolls.
As of right now, we can determine that 52% of people with 6.7% margin of error (making the real number between 45.3% and 58.7%) plan on purchasing this DLC. 24% have outright stated they won't purchase it (17.3%-30.7% by same margin of error).*
* Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/196972/do-you-plan-on-getting-the-imperial-city-dlc/p1
To follow up, you have no data implicating that "most people" play only solo or with very small group of friends, or that they enjoy doing so.
That is all speculation from your part, and I have a widely different view of the common MMO gamer, a view that gets reinforced every time I log in and speak with people.
What you also fail to mention (along with your source to "people" wanted co-op Elder Scrolls) is that there is a vocal opposition that knows adding co-op into Elder Scrolls would lower the quality of the single player game.
I would personally never purchase a co-op Elder Scrolls game, simply on the basis that I don't have enough friends interested in that kind of stuff and I prefer my single player Elder Scrolls be relaxing and about immersing myself in the world and exploring, none of this co-op *** & giggles bs.
Also, dungeons scaling to number of players would defeat the whole purpose grouping, dungeons and the challenge in them.
It is also a far cry from someone claiming to be an Elder Scrolls fan, since everyone knows the series has been going downhill partly to the added level scaling (which they toned down a bit in Skyrim, but not enough when compared to classic such as Morrowind).Someone at ZeniMax Online Studios had their head screwed on right, because that's what well over 80~ per cent of ESO is. And that's where the success has come from. Though their marketing team has had me scratching my head. Epic raids! Loot! Amazing social group interactions! Big bosses! Et cetera. This isn't why most people seem to play The Elder Scrolls Online. It's more the lore and the chance to explore the world of Nirn more deeply, perhaps bringing along a friend for the adventure. Its staying power is in how storied it is, and how each zone is in itself an encapsulated story with substories within.
And this here is the problem. 80% of ESO is just mindless & boring questing. There's no open world PvP to make the journey to max level interesting, and especially Veteran Rank content is what finally puts the nail into the coffin for many people, before they ever reach maximum level.
You see, ESO's problem is the reverse of WildStar's. Too much content for casual players, not enough for hardcore ones.
Which is why the "success" you mention really turned out to be a B2P transition.
I personally went through six or seven end game raiding guilds, which all died due to lack of interesting, rewarding end game content (raids, specifically).
It's cool casual players have content that appeals to them, and even I found questing enjoyable at times. But lets not pretend that you can make a successful MMO without keeping the hardcore audience which is what keeps the game in the loops, promotes it via youtube, twitch and so on and forms communities in game.The reason most log in the next day isn't for that epix loot, but rather to see where the next step of the story they're on goes. Some of it has been engaging, some of it has been gripping! It's the writers of ESO who've kept the game afloat, whereas the more powerfully MMO-focused aspects are trying to sabotage it by holding its head under the water. No one really wanted another MMO. I think the market is saturated with and completely sick of MMOs at this point. What delighted everyone who played ESO is that it wasn't just another MMO, it was more a co-op RPG than anything else. An average one with good writing, yes, but do you even understand how rare that is?? Having hundreds of other people in a public dungeon and ruining immersion doesn't do a thing for the game, it does plenty to hurt it.
The reason most log in the next day isn't for that "epix loot", because that "epix loot" doesn't exist.
Your "Best in Slot" gear is purchased straight off the guild kiosk right when you reach maximum level in this MMO, which is a huge problem and leaves people logging in for what, crafting writs & vet daily (for the distant hope that those gold keys purchase something useful after Imperial City.And yet... for some reason, ZOS is oblivious to this. The Imperial City content proves this. They don't seem to understand that no one wants this MMO they're making. No one wants another MMO. What people want are great co-op RPGs, and that's where the potential for ESO will always lie. Yes, a co-op group can sometimes be as big as five, but forcing that number on everyone is just going to alienate the vast majority of your players. They won't turn up on the forums in droves to shout and scream, though, they'll just give up and leave. They're used to not being catered to. ESO was one of the rare games that did, but now it might be walking a very dark, wrong path.
I think it is time for you to come into terms with the fact that this is a MMO, not a solo player or co-op game.
Just like World of Warcraft is a MMO, not a Real-Time Strategy game like its predecessors.
You also again lack the source for your statement of "no one wants another MMO". Many people love MMOs. You don't. Simple as that.
Again, stating it will alienate "majority of players" is just your speculation with no empirical evidence behind it.
Personally, Imperial City is the reason I decided to renew my ESO+ subscription and start grinding CPs again.
You may see just a dark path, but I finally see some light at the end of that path and I've been extremely pessimistic about this game for the past year and a half.Here's what I think would help in the future:
* Private versions of public dungeons that allow for just the party to have an immersive dungeon-delving experience;
* Less of a focus on required level in all dungeon delves, allowing explorers to have more of an Elder Scrolls experience;
* Change up the forced-grouping dungeons so that they scale to the number of people entering (with a relevantly sane difficulty level);
* Consider adding a private instance option for the world outside of towns and cities.
Here's what you already have:- 15 Group Dungeons outside Craglorn for just you and your group to "immerse" yourself in. Plenty more in Craglorn, for just you and your group to "immerse yourself in".
- An almost classic Elder Scrolls experience when it comes to scaling. TES 3: Morrowind, considered by many to be the best Elder Scrolls game to date had no level scaling, at all. Every dungeon & area you entered, there was a sense of danger, not knowing how strong enemies you'd face. Level scaling dumbs down the game by incredible amounts, diminishes challenge & sense of danger and is still unarguably one of the most hated features of Oblivion & Skyrim (latter started toning the scaling down again). You say you want to explore? Cool, I want to explore too, but I also want to feel excited while doing so.
One thing I ask of you is to stop using the phrase "Elder Scrolls experience" when talking about level scaling, that is downright insulting.
Also as mentioned above, dungeon scaling only diminishes the challenge inside and makes it feel generic and cheap. It will also make sure people just do what is easiest: run in, kill everything, run out - rather than spending time gathering a group to delve into that dangerous dungeon.
You are not dovahkiin in this game, try to understand this.
Try to understand as well that this is a MMO, the whole point is playing with others.
It seems to me like you'd be happier playing Skyrim right now.The latter will be the most controversial amongst MMO fans, but the game is actually designed for it. And you have to decide one way or the other, really. I'm talking about instancing, of course. MMO fans hate instancing because it means that people they're pugging with may not be able to do the same content. As they may need to go back to, say, Haven in order to get supplies. Except whilst one person's Haven may be liberated, another's may still be occupied. The simple solution to this is to simply put your foot down and tell people who your game is focused at. It should be obvious, really, but I think it's necessary. And in doing so provide an option for private instancing of all content.
You must not be aware that this game did have such instancing at one point, where players went into their separate instances and others couldn't see them anymore. This was one of the biggest complaints from players & critics alike, and has since been fixed for the large part by developers.This way, if I want to tackle a dolmen solo or in a group of whatever size I want, I can. Same with world bosses. If I feel like being sociable, I can exit the private instance and socialise with people. I can tell you now that were you to do this, it would attract a lot more people to the game. You could sell it more as a co-op RPG with optional MMO elements.
And you would lose every MMO player who bought the MMO (not co-op RPG).
You'd get people demanding refunds and game shutting down.
There are far less painful ways of killing a MMO.I think you have to decide, ZeniMax. One way or the other you're going to lose a demographic. Is it going to be the bigger niche or the smaller amount of MMO players? And like I said, I know not many MMO players play this because the vast majority of MMO players don't want another MMO. WoW is the only MMO for them. Proof? Wildstar. Wildstar, Wildstar, Wildstar. It tried to go all the way with appealing to MMO gamers, and now it's a goner. ESO is still afloat, Wildstar isn't. At least ask yourselves why.
Wait, what? MMO players don't want MMOs?
Surely you're just trolling at this point.
You also failed to mention the successful MMOs (apart from WoW), such as FFXIV, SWTOR, GW2 etc. which are all turning a profit.
Also, WildStar (with which you seem to have an obsession) is still around as F2P, just like ESO is still around as B2P.A lot of my favourite online games have died because of bad business decisions, I don't want to see that happen to this one, too. I don't usually talk out like this because I have social anxieties, but I feel compelled. I don't like seeing games I enjoy playing disappearing forever, getting sunsetted. And that's what's going to happen here, too. ESO isn't circling the drain, it's getting ready to do a kamikaze loop right down into that drain. The people keeping it alive are those who love the world, the content, and everything Elder Scrolls. It's not the WoW fans who want another forced group dungeon.
I wonder why a person like you plays social, online games in the first place.
Everything you've said screams of "I'd be happier playing Skyrim right now".
My advice: don't play MMOs if you don't enjoy MMOs.
Signed,
Huge Elder Scrolls fan (#TeamMorrowind)
MMO enthusiast (WoW, GW, LOTRO, SWTOR, ESO)
You sir are my hero #TeamMorrowind0 -
strikeback1247✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is an MMO my friend. You can't expect to solo the entire game. We have all the other Elder Scrolls games for that
If you don't want to be grouped with random strangers, find a fun guild! I love my guild mates and I know them very well. I can always find a group of guild mates to play with if needed, and I love playing with them of course!P.A.W.S. - Positively Against Wild Sasquatches - NO TO BIGFOOT!1 -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have no stats to agree or disagree with the OP on who everyone is and if this "Everyone" does or does not like ESO in its current form or where it is going. Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim are some of the best games I have ever played. I NEVER once thought that ESO would be or should be anything like those games.
I believe that ESO is a MMO first with the lore of ES. With that said I believe the best direction for ESO is along a path that is partial to a MMO environment. I have played several MMO's for many years and all of them in their own way where enjoyable. ESO has been extremely enjoyable and continues to be each and every time I log in. I believe that ZOS will need to bring content that is for PVP and PVE and sometimes both if that works to keep the player base as big as possible.
ESO will never be a co-op Skyrim. However if ES 6 is Co-OP that awesome, but this game will never be that. This game will always be a MMO. So if you like the MMO environment then you need to continue to support this game. If you do not like MMO's then I am sorry, but you have come to the wrong place.
I am not a huge die hard PVP guy, but I will be getting into IC and will enjoy it because it is a game and games are fun.XBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0