Obligitory KEEP THE 100% LOSS thread.

GaldorP · July 2015

Since the other thread on the same topic was closed, I'm going to post here again what I posted there

GaldorP wrote:

It looks like a lot of fun to me Looking forward to testing it on the PTS

(* I do think Tel Var stone gear should be tradable though unless it has bonuses that are only useful in PvP)

(** Little side note: The original Lineage II MMOG had both an XP penalty and a chance to drop your gear when you died and in that game any player could attack and kill you anywhere outside of towns if they wanted to. They would gain chaotic status if they killed you while you didn't fight back but they could kill you and you would lose both XP and had a chance to drop part of your gear.
Now I was pretty much a carebear player in Lineage II and I avoided PvP as much as I could, but I still liked that open PvP system and the risk and excitement that came with it I think hunting with friends or sneaking around on your own in the Imperial City, trying to get some Tel Var stones and trying to survive will be a lot of fun. A hardcore PvP system in a zone that also has PvE content brings people together. It brings out the worst but also the best in some players. And you will make friends and enemies. And it's a really dynamic system that never gets stale, you never know what will happen next. So I'm really looking forward to testing it )

(*** Now that I think about it, the Imperial City and the hunt for a very special kind of stone in the ruins of a medieval fantasy city really reminds me of the tabletop game Mordheim )

JediRift · July 2015

I will one day have a mass amount of stones on me due to sheer carelessness. I will get killed and lose ALL OF MY STONES.

I will still 100% support this system of high risk/high reward.

Machiavelli · July 2015

Acrolas wrote: »

Machiavelli didn't favor cruelty over the long-term goodwill of the people. Only when it preserved the safety of leadership or state. Machiavelli condemned gratuitous cruelty.

Did we read the same books? The Prince says differently. He also didn't give one whit about other people, he was opportunist who didn't care much for other people unless they could benefit him in some way. They coined a term called Dark Triad, which are three personality traits: Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and Narcissism.

Aerius_Sygale · July 2015

Fml... If you people want this, you guys BETTER be ready to lend aid to those that need it and allow them to group up with you... I want the goods, tired of getting screwed over.

Acrolas · July 2015

Machiavelli wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

Machiavelli didn't favor cruelty over the long-term goodwill of the people. Only when it preserved the safety of leadership or state. Machiavelli condemned gratuitous cruelty.

Did we read the same books? The Prince says differently. He also didn't give one whit about other people, he was opportunist who didn't care much for other people unless they could benefit him in some way. They coined a term called Dark Triad, which are three personality traits: Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and Narcissism.

Machiavellian was used in the English language, with a negative connotation, before most people even read The Prince. Even Shakespeare used it in The Merry Wives of Windsor prior to The Prince's English translation.

It's a word that says more about a person's reputation than the actual meaning of Machiavelli's works.

Soulshine · July 2015

Rylana wrote: »

You know what this thread really tells me

There are an awful lot of super elitist smug pve players that know the moment a PvP player is involved, their unwarranted sense of self importance gets kicked down the crapper and they finally get to see just how much they actually suck at the game and knowledge of mechanics.

Get used to it, your days of getting best in slot gear from easy/predictable mechanics are over.

Perhaps your attitudes will kick down a peg now.

I hate to break this to you, but you do realize that there are no "super elitist smug pve players" actually left to play ESO, right?

They all left after I told them all the super elite smug PvPers QQ'fested in beta that Doshia was just too hard waaa-waaa.... : P

I kid.

But do lighten up amigo, looking like you have a chip on your shoulder is most unbecoming and just puts you on par with those same people.

Hiero_Glyph · July 2015

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

Soulshine · July 2015

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

I wondered about this, and another person proposed something similar in another thread.

I noticed that the ESO Live video was -- of course --- of a team just doing PvE kills in IC. Since there was no detail given that indicated you actually have to loot the body to get the reward off an enemy player, it seems a huge oversight to me.

It should most definitely be by looting the body for any type of kill so that, as you say, it exposes the player doing the deed. Barring that, as I also posted elsewhere, it will obviously become known after a time (just as now) who are the players that engage in this type of practice and they will eventually mark themselves out as targets. You don't need name plates to scan a person and see their name and remember it for next time....

technohic · July 2015

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

This much does make sense to me. Can't be a hit and run. Detonation is likely to get touched in the balance pass they do with the update but people always find the next thing.

Hiero_Glyph · July 2015

technohic wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

This much does make sense to me. Can't be a hit and run. Detonation is likely to get touched in the balance pass they do with the update but people always find the next thing.

Yeah, 1.7 will affect builds due to reducing damage, shields, and healing but there will always be an effective single and group OHKO/burst DPS build to manage this type of thing.

Xjcon · July 2015

The big pvp guilds will be steam rolling and collecting mass amounts of stones, then turn around and sell it for gold. That's great for the hard core pvp player, not so great for those casual pvp players tho.

Soulshine · July 2015

Xjcon wrote: »

The big pvp guilds will be steam rolling and collecting mass amounts of stones, then turn around and sell it for gold. That's great for the hard core pvp player, not so great for those casual pvp players tho.

You cannot sell TV stones. You can only sell the items that can be bought with them, like craft mats or other items

RustedValor · July 2015

This is a symptom of the everyone is a winner generation. PPL cant stand to lose.

thedrumchannell_ESO · July 2015

/lootcorpseondeath

WolffenBloodseeker · July 2015

RustedValor wrote: »

This is a symptom of the everyone is a winner generation. PPL cant stand to lose.

QFT

Etharian · July 2015

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.[/quote

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

again wrong, try again. If a ganker ganks you or someone before you... guess what..!! they HAVE STONES ON THEM AND STILL HAVE TO SURVIVE THEMSELVES... WHO WOULDA KNEW! its called High risk VS High reward... ppl are risking ganking you and your taking a risk by trying to farm legendary loot. you want it for free? go do a pledge

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2015

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.

The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.
They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Soulshine · July 2015

Yeah, I hear ya. But I don't think comparing listening to NPC dialogue in a PvE dungeon and losing hard won TV stones in a fight are annoyances quite on the same level, come on lol

That said, I did post a similar comment in another thread here. Because when all is said and done, some people have made it pretty clear they are just against the entire notion of what this update is about and that is why they are angry. No different than when some people were very angry about Craglorn being originally for 4 man groups back in v10 days.

As is, I think that we will discover, as always, things with this system that will be buggy or that will need adjusting - we always do in this game so to expect it to not need some level of adjustment is not realistic, but overall I think the design as presented is pretty good one and certainly merits being given the opportunity to play out.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Yeah, I hear ya. But I don't think comparing listening to NPC dialogue in a PvE dungeon and losing hard won TV stones in a fight are annoyances quite on the same level, come on lol.

You underestimate how much I despise the cardboard storylines, braindead dialogue, and meaninless fights where you just stand in a blob and DPS a big glowing evil thing for 5 minutes to get an underleveled helmet and some passives that increase your attributes so you can not be mathmatically behind everyone else.

I would rather lose 10,000 stones to a lag switching easybutton NB stam ganker than hear that drivel again. At least the ganker doesn't have a silly fantasy backstory I am forced to listen to.

Hiero_Glyph · July 2015

Etharian wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Again, only the grinders are taking any risk. The gankers will have zero stones and if they manage a kill with 1k+ they can easily use an emporer's retreat and still be up 500+. If they die or get killed you get next to nothing from them. Worse yet magicka NBs can gank groups using detonation builds and still retreat quickly. How is the ganker taking any risk in IC?

My solution is to force players to have to loot the slain player's body in order to claim their stones. Now there is a risk to the ganker since they will be exposed briefly. The 100% loot/loss isn't the problem and reducing the % is only a bandaid to the real issue.

again wrong, try again. If a ganker ganks you or someone before you... guess what..!! they HAVE STONES ON THEM AND STILL HAVE TO SURVIVE THEMSELVES... WHO WOULDA KNEW! its called High risk VS High reward... ppl are risking ganking you and your taking a risk by trying to farm legendary loot. you want it for free? go do a pledge

So obviously you have put some serious thought into this based on your use of caps so let's run the scenario out...

A player enters the IC and has zero stones in their possession. They decide instead of farming they want to strictly PK for them. They enter each area cautiously as to not aggro enemies while they scout their potential targets. They come across a group of 4 actively engaged in combat with mobs and see that one player is already down. At this point they have zero risk for attempting to gank.

Even if they are killed or forced to retreat the group still has enemies to fight and a player down, which may act as bait. If successful, the ganker can immediately teleport to base if the haul is large enough since stolen stones do not increase the multiplier. If the haul is too small then the ganker may as well look for more targets or can simply aggro a mob and intentionally die while only incurring a 10% penalty.

Again, the risk is minimal since the multiplier remains at x1.0. They can stop with no penalty or continue searching for more loot by choice. Even if killed by another player the only period of risk they incur is the time between scoring a large haul and trying to teleport or die to a mob. We are talking about less than 20s of risk at most.

Soulshine · July 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Yeah, I hear ya. But I don't think comparing listening to NPC dialogue in a PvE dungeon and losing hard won TV stones in a fight are annoyances quite on the same level, come on lol.

You underestimate how much I despise the cardboard storylines, braindead dialogue, and meaninless fights where you just stand in a blob and DPS a big glowing evil thing for 5 minutes to get an underleveled helmet and some passives that increase your attributes so you can not be mathmatically behind everyone else.

I would rather lose 10,000 stones to a lag switching easybutton NB stam ganker than hear that drivel again. At least the ganker doesn't have a silly fantasy backstory I am forced to listen to.

LOL! Ok ok I stand corrected... for YOU it is just as bad, hehe 8D

Steelshiv · July 2015

I'm just happy there's new content

Emma_Overload · July 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.
The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.

They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Modded "Insightful" because @Yolokin_Swagonborn 's assessment is 100% correct and also 'cause I got quoted

Maybe if ZoS hadn't put anything in the IC that PvEers wanted, none of this would matter and no one would be arguing. But they DID put stuff in there we want, and they did it on purpose just to set us up for PvP target practice. So here we are, locked in forum war until Update 7 goes live.

FilthyMudcrabs · July 2015

Guys, you can't complain about the game being too easy and then complain when they add in a challenge.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.
The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.

They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Modded "Insightful" because @Yolokin_Swagonborn 's assessment is 100% correct and also 'cause I got quoted

Maybe if ZoS hadn't put anything in the IC that PvEers wanted, none of this would matter and no one would be arguing. But they DID put stuff in there we want, and they did it on purpose just to set us up for PvP target practice. So here we are, locked in forum war until Update 7 goes live.

LOL @Emma_Eunjung

Now you know how us PvP'ers have felt for OVER A YEAR as you got PvE content patch after PvE content patch and we languished in single digit frames for months in cyrodill getting only a meager fraction of the XP and loot drops that PvE'ers got easily and frequently.

I despised every minute I was forced to grind in craglorn (unless I found an awesome "high yield" grind that offered some non-predictable emergent gameplay) or forced to constantly run boring undaunted dailies for the passives and gear to stay competitive in PvP.

Now for the first time in over a year, PvE's will actually have to do something they don't prefer to get materials and end game gear.

For the first time in over a year, we get a cookie. And PvE'ers want to take the chocolate chips out of it.

I can either respond with empathy or schadenfreude. In this case, I will choose empathy but only because you are a stamina sorc and I need your support for my campaign to make stam sorcs awesome.

But seriously they should have opened Orsinium and Hrothgar at the same time so that ZOS doesn't feel the pressure to dilute the imperial city until it satisfies no one.

CP5 · July 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.
The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.

They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Where do the stones come from? Random question, but the stones are intended to be a currency for the IC and if you see the IC as pvp focused then the stones are a pvp currency. The stones from quest are given in safe boxes that can't be looted, so where do the stones for pvp come from? Not fighting other pvp players, but instead mobs. Which pvp player is looking forward to IC so they can grind mobs?

Unlikely, and this is my problem, the system is designed so that pve players go kill mobs and get stones, so that they can be killed by players better equip to fight other players, so that people who want pvp and rewards can get these stones. If they were awarded for pvp encounters and events so that people who fight mobs aren't the center of stone generation there would likely be less of an uproar.

FancyTuna8 · July 2015

If there is a percentage multiplier for the Telvar Stone drop, based on the relative differences of the players in level and champion points, then it sounds like fun. Someone with 300 CP shouldn't get 100% of your stones if you are running around at whatever the lowest level that can run around in IC is, with 0 CP. Balance the risk/reward out. That case should be something like 1%, in my opinion. If the players are equal, 50%, etc...

Sharee · July 2015

The stone gathering multiplier is supposed to represent a risk vs reward concept. The more stones you have, the more stones you earn, but also the more stones you potentially lose when dying.

If you go the 'safe' route with 1x multiplier, and bank you stones as soon as possible, you will lose 75% of the stones you could earn with a 4x multiplier. A 75% loss.

If getting killed by a player would only cost you 10% of your stones, then it would always be more profitable to run with a 4x multiplier, because you only risk losing 10% of your stones, whereas with a 1x multiplier you are losing 75% of your stones.

This would destroy the original risk vs reward concept of the multiplier. No-one would willingly give up 75% of their stones when dying only costs you 10% anyway.

Lava_Croft · July 2015

Supporting the OP. There finally needs to be an actual downside to dying.

MrGhosty · July 2015

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If you read the posts carefully from the people who want the LOSS factor lowered from 100% you will learn something very interesting and VITAL to both this conversation and the health of the Imperial City as a PvP zone.
The majority of the detractors to this post dislike the Tel Var system conceptually.

They dislike risk based PvP conceptually, and some dislike any and all PvP completely.

Their suggestions to lower the TV Loss Factor does not come from a mindset of improving the Tel Var system at all, it comes from a mindset of MINIMIZING the entire systems effect on their preferred type of gameplay.

This is a crucial point to realize because it means that no matter how much the loss percentage is lowered, these detractors will not be satisfied, and will campaign to lower it again, and again, and create more "safe zones" or "safe stones" within the imperial city until their risk of loss or even seeing another player is effectively zero.

I am not trying to judge their playstyle, only explain how it is incompatible with the design of the imperial city and any "compromises" made to accommodate them really compromise the integrity of the entire imperial city design.

PvP'ers already know how much it sucks to be forced to PvE to get progression gear. I sure wish I had a way to turn off NPC dialogues and cinematics in undaunted dailies so I would never have to here "Over there its Mareel" again. If those dialogues were removed however, it would feel less immersive to PvE'ers. Same thing is happening here.

Now it appears that PvE'ers will need to be in a PvP environment for gear and materials. They will also want to minimize annoyances that get in their way of getting gear. PvP, and player based progress/stone loss is merely an annoyance to them.

Here are some quotes that illustrate my point.

"That you do drop your Tel-Var stones on death means the satisfaction of making it back to safety with a big haul is so much greater."

This will NEVER offset the humiliation of being robbed by a human player.

Locking paid PVE content behind a griefer PVP wall is a psychotic business decision and the reason, along with the lack of caps and catch-ups on the CP system, that I am done with ESO for the foreseeable future.

"If you don't drop your Tel-Var stones on death then people won't be attracted to PvPing within the imperial city."

If PvPers don't want to PvP without the "reward" of making other players miserable, then maybe it's time to admit that PvP is boring and pointless.

No matter what pvp players say TES will ALWAYS be a pve game and pve needs to be first.

Read those quotes and tell me honestly that those people will be really happy with a loss % compromise.

Modded "Insightful" because @Yolokin_Swagonborn 's assessment is 100% correct and also 'cause I got quoted

Maybe if ZoS hadn't put anything in the IC that PvEers wanted, none of this would matter and no one would be arguing. But they DID put stuff in there we want, and they did it on purpose just to set us up for PvP target practice. So here we are, locked in forum war until Update 7 goes live.

LOL @Emma_Eunjung

Now you know how us PvP'ers have felt for OVER A YEAR as you got PvE content patch after PvE content patch and we languished in single digit frames for months in cyrodill getting only a meager fraction of the XP and loot drops that PvE'ers got easily and frequently.

I despised every minute I was forced to grind in craglorn (unless I found an awesome "high yield" grind that offered some non-predictable emergent gameplay) or forced to constantly run boring undaunted dailies for the passives and gear to stay competitive in PvP.

Now for the first time in over a year, PvE's will actually have to do something they don't prefer to get materials and end game gear.

For the first time in over a year, we get a cookie. And PvE'ers want to take the chocolate chips out of it.

I can either respond with empathy or schadenfreude. In this case, I will choose empathy but only because you are a stamina sorc and I need your support for my campaign to make stam sorcs awesome.

But seriously they should have opened Orsinium and Hrothgar at the same time so that ZOS doesn't feel the pressure to dilute the imperial city until it satisfies no one.

I was actually surprised when the announced the imperial city with no wrothgar attached to it. I expected IC to be PvP centric as a shot in the arm to give the PvPers some much needed love (provided free or fairly discounted as it's been exactly a year since they first talked about it and said it was mostly done) with Wrothgar being the first premium content.

As for the drop rate, I must confess I'm not terribly invested either way. I don't plan to buy the update because I don't like mixing PvP and PvE. I do both, and enjoy them both immensely but for me personally PvP and PvE both use very different head spaces. I also see a huge potential for griefing or otherwise named issues in this system, it would be something that as with everything else in life gets sullied because a small percentage find a way to game the system and it spoils it for everyone. Sadly all of this is largely conjecture to either side until we actually get boots on the ground (yours, not mine) to see how it will all play out.