Why does everyone want to be equal?

spoqster · July 2015

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

I agree.

To those that want a non vertical progression system please see GW2 or pretty much any shooter type game. There is a niche for you, but this is not it.

Creating another PvP campaign will only split the already dwindling player base.

Be careful what you wish for, if you yell loud enough you just may see results that you did not expect ... like a dead game.

[SNIP] I am sorry, but who said that ESO can't borrow mechanics from GW2, Fifa and Counter-Strike? This is an online Elder Scrolls game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, this game needs progression, but it doesn't have to be a vertical progression system. I strongly believe this game would be much, much more successful if it used a horizontal progression system instead.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Profanity]

Vizier · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

For the same reason steroids are illegal in progessional sports, and you get kicked out of a badeball game for putting too much pine tar on your bat.

The difference is Champion Points are part of the rules. It's not the same thing. Bad Analogy. But as long as we are using baseball as an example. Does everyone in baseball get paid the same? Of course not. Why? Because they very in their abilities. Some are more effective players than others. Why? Probably because they worked harder. Ran more, pumped more, threw more, hit more.

Humans have different capacities based on the work they put in. In other words their "progression." Thing is an RPG simulates this through statistical progression based on achievement. It would be too much for them to program all the variables involved in progression such as a professional athlete obtains through work.

Swing your sword more at the monsters and bad guys and you will hit for more damage..shrug. Get over it. This is an RPG. If you want static characters play something like an FPS.

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

Oh, stop being so melodramatic.

Since when is an absolutely spot on logical argument putting things in the simplest terms possible, you know, so they can be understood, melodramatic?

[Moderator Note: Edited image per our rules on Flaming]

Endless-Shogun · July 2015

This fall into the whole "No child left behind" problem that's currently plaguing the world.

Not everyone's child gets to be an astronaut.
And the more pandering they receive, the more likely they'll just end up as a janitor.

Leave the champion point system alone.
Getting creamed by someone who intentionally grinds for CP is just how it goes.
He played more. That is his prerogative.

spoqster · July 2015

Endless-Shogun wrote: »

This fall into the whole "No child left behind" problem that's currently plaguing the world.

Not everyone's child gets to be an astronaut.
And the more pandering they receive, the more likely they'll just end up as a janitor.

Leave the champion point system alone.
Getting creamed by someone who intentionally grinds for CP is just how it goes.
He played more. That is his prerogative.

Oh my god! Where in the world did you get the idea that someone should be rewarded for playing more?

This is complete BS and yet you state it as if it were a fact!

sadownik · July 2015

Endless-Shogun wrote: »

This fall into the whole "No child left behind" problem that's currently plaguing the world.

Not everyone's child gets to be an astronaut.
And the more pandering they receive, the more likely they'll just end up as a janitor.

Leave the champion point system alone.
Getting creamed by someone who intentionally grinds for CP is just how it goes.
He played more. That is his prerogative.

I will save that message and remind you in 6 months, that is if you still be here on forums.

Tolmos · July 2015

What I'm more curious about is why everyone wants the computer to give their opponent a handicap? Are they so afraid of what might happen to their ego if they actually played against someone with similar stats and lost? Are they so insecure in their ability to play the game that they have to supplement it with bigger numbers than everyone else, just so they can say "Oh look at me, I'm the best! Not actually better than you, of course, but my numbers are bigger so therefor I am the best!"

I can't imagine that mentality. I want to know that when I beat someone at something, that they didn't do it with a handicap. Especially if they are NEWER than me at the game. What's even the point of that? I'm already going to be more skilled than them as a player simply because of experience, and now someone thinks I need my hand help more with bigger stats than them as well?

Amazing.

washlov · July 2015

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

the champion system is a quick shot, it is a boring system, which prefers farmers and exclude casuals and weekend players or players with work or players with families......
imagine you are a weekend player you will have no chance on leaderboards and get slaughtered in cyrodiil --> fun right
this system atm is only what for solo games but in mmos people want to play together or against each other and this have to be fair or its senseless
why do you think WOW makes from time to time a ITEM/STAT resett? <--- so new players can catch up and hold the old with new content
all other mmos are niche products

Armitas · July 2015

I don't think people want equal levels, I think their concern is over the width of the gap and it's current course of accelerated widening.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

spoqster wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

The concept of levels in an RPG comes from a time when RPGs were played in your head with the aid of a character sheet, a pencil and a book. Levels are an abstraction of skill, and it was a brilliant idea back then.

When you play a combat focused online RPG that has a complex combat mechanic - like ESO - there is no need for levels any more. There is no need for the aforementioned abstraction, because you can actually practice and learn how to play better. The traditional RPG levels are thus an antiquated relic, that works decently well in single player games (but they usually have to scale the content somehow for the concept to be applicable - pretty idiotic), and it does not work at all in a competitive multiplayer game.

I am all for spicing up an online game with horizontal progression systems, such as skills and gear and vanity elements and convenience items, all of which you can earn by playing well. Hell, I'll be fine if you get vanity rewards for grinding.

But let us please accept the fact that it's not 1981 any longer, and that we can now have online RPGs without levels and without awarding no-lifers with hard-coded power advantages.

I wrote my own rant post here, btw: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill

TRUTH

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

To those elitists that want computer generated advantages....

The profitability of your kind of game is ZERO... this is why EVERY game company caters to casuals.... 99% of the human population does NOT like a game that pretends to be a second job.

Azalin76 · July 2015

I seem to be reading that this mostly hurts pvp. I don't pvp so I don't really notice the difference except for leveling an alt is much easier due to higher stats. As someone stated, if they can make a lvl 10 player a lvl 50 player just from stepping in to cyrodiil, why can't they just strip everyone of their CP when they enter cyrodiil? I honestly don't see why a player who has more time invested shouldn't be stronger than someone who invests half the time.

Vizier · July 2015

Tolmos wrote: »

What I'm more curious about is why everyone wants the computer to give their opponent a handicap? Are they so afraid of what might happen to their ego if they actually played against someone with similar stats and lost? Are they so insecure in their ability to play the game that they have to supplement it with bigger numbers than everyone else, just so they can say "Oh look at me, I'm the best! Not actually better than you, of course, but my numbers are bigger so therefor I am the best!"

I can't imagine that mentality. I want to know that when I beat someone at something, that they didn't do it with a handicap. Especially if they are NEWER than me at the game. What's even the point of that? I'm already going to be more skilled than them as a player simply because of experience, and now someone thinks I need my hand help more with bigger stats than them as well?

Amazing.

What I'm curious about is why people want to play an RPG MMO and expect there to be no character progression based on XP gain. It's perplexing that they don't just go play an FPS or RTS. I'm curious at the mentality that demands equivalency regardless of time and effort. I'm curious at "YOU OWE MEEEEEE" attitude from folks that simply haven't put the time in. I'm hearing alot of "I Want, I want...as if the whole RPG system should be gutted to accommodate. Lols. (facepalm)

Dionysusjones · July 2015

@Falgour wrote: »

No, it's not.

I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Final fantasy 11
Everquest
Lineage
Ultima online
Eve online (this may be a stretch but it takes over a year to train for the biggest ship in the game)

It's happened in the past you might of just not been a part of it. In most of these games you accepted that it takes a long time and gain acceptance with your place within the rank and file of the game. Not everyone HAS to be super duper top level bad arse.

If I buy a tennis racket should I demand that the rules change because I can't be bothered to practice cause .. You know I own my own Fortune 500 company and have 3 kids with my supermodel wife and my Ferrari is in the shop this week so I can't practice but I should be competitive with the best tennis players who practice all the time cause they live in thier moms basement?

Yeah it's sorta like that....

Endless-Shogun · July 2015

I play a lot of video games, and I also work a 50+ hour work week.

But I dont understand why someone who cant (weather chosen, or forced upon) thinks he is entitled to be just as powerful as someone who plays 16 hours a day.

There are tons of unfair mechanics. But the casual being as strong as the elitist is the most unfair.
To the elitist!

Everything is a choice, he chooses to spend hours gaming, you choose hours doing something else.

You shouldn't be as strong as him, you didn't put the time in!

this is an MMORPG with progression focus on skills, armor, and item gains.
Statistics increase with level, with better gear, and skill perks.

This is not twitch combat, albeit more open than other MMO melee games sure.

Everyone should be equal in a game like Battlefield, CoD, Mortal Kombat, where your skills prevail.
Everyone should not be equal in a game like WoW, ESO, games where the gear and level make the character.

rb2001 · July 2015

Bunch of spoiled, entitled people.

Who frigging cares if someone else if better than you? Try harder.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

I'd agree, it seems fair to me as well that those willing to dedicate a lot more time to grinding have a lot more champion points than other players.

However, the concern is that new players joining Cyrodiil will be so far behind that they might be discouraged from playing the game. Also if someone takes a break for a few months, it's easy to catch up on VR levels, but they will fall very far behind in CP, which might also discourage these folks from returning to the game. And there are players who just want to play the game and not worry about grinding.

While enlightened, these players who are trying to "catch up" already earn CP 4x faster than grinders who have used up enlightenment.

Simply extending the enlightenment period from 12 days to an indefinite period, or at least a few months could make it a little easier for these players to catch up to the range of 200-300 CP, somewhat competitive with most players in Cyrodiil, without nerfing the most dedicated grinders.
.

failkiwib16_ESO · July 2015

OnThaLoose wrote: »

It's because people naturally love to complain. It's human nature. Also, it's mostly pvp'ers.

A very underrated post ^^

washlov wrote: »

the champion system is a quick shot, it is a boring system, which prefers farmers and exclude casuals and weekend players or players with work or players with families......
imagine you are a weekend player you will have no chance on leaderboards and get slaughtered in cyrodiil --> fun right
this system atm is only what for solo games but in mmos people want to play together or against each other and this have to be fair or its senseless
why do you think WOW makes from time to time a ITEM/STAT resett? <--- so new players can catch up and hold the old with new content
all other mmos are niche products

A large sum of those players you see on leaderboards have between 160 - 300 champion points, which they gained from day to day dungeoning. I know a few of them, they are not casual players but they are not heavy grinders either... if you took away all their champion points today, they would still stand on the leaderboards tomorrow. Also they dont' refuse to play with players that have very little champion points, they just require them to be skilled at their role.

Cyrodiil is a very chaotic place, you can meet a v14 with 74 champion points or a v14 with 600 champion points. You will never know untill you talk to them individually. There are lots of enemy players there too, who are casual players and don't have a large sum of champion points backing them up.

Tolmos · July 2015

Armitas wrote: »

What I'm curious about is why people want to play an RPG MMO and expect there to be no character progression based on XP gain. It's perplexing that they don't just go play an FPS or RTS. I'm curious at the mentality that demands equivalency regardless of time and effort. I'm curious at "YOU OWE MEEEEEE" attitude from folks that simply haven't put the time in. I'm hearing alot of "I Want, I want...as if the whole RPG system should be gutted to accommodate. Lols. (facepalm)

While the other side is constantly demanding that the game artificially make them "better" than other players by giving them an advantage and their opponents a handicap. It's amazing to me how many people feel so entitled by the length of time they've spent in a game; as if, simply by having been here longer they deserve to always win in the game regardless of their own personal abilities.

And thus CP is born. Players so afraid that they won't have the personal player skill to beat new players, and feeling so entitled to the right to beat those players regardless of their lack of skill, that the system has to hand them the win with bigger numbers.

rb2001 wrote: »

Bunch of spoiled, entitled people.

Sums it up perfectly.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring as hell gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

rb2001 · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring as hell gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

So much truth here.

These people hate more levels, but want more levels. They hate someone else being better, but want to be better than everyone else.

It's all holding up actual development of the game, world and mechanics, just so people can feel special and not feel like anyone else is special.

Endless-Shogun · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring as hell gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

Go play a single player, story driven game then!

Take away all the progression in an MMO, and you will have a bunch of people enjoying the story, sure, and then leaving, because there wont be *** to do!

People who play MMOs play for longevity of the game, the time required to progress, the ability to dump hours into a game and get hours of entertainment in return.

Witcher 3? Badass game with badass graphics and a very compelling story.
But I'm not going to dump 900 hours into it, because I can't! because there isn't enough to do.
That doesn't mean i didn't thoroughly enjoy it. I just choose to play an MMO for the exceeding amount of content and entertainment it provides me.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

Endless-Shogun wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring [snip] gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

Go play a single player, story driven game then!

Take away all the progression in an MMO, and you will have a bunch of people enjoying the story, sure, and then leaving, because there wont be *** to do!

People who play MMOs play for longevity of the game, the time required to progress, the ability to dump hours into a game and get hours of entertainment in return.

Witcher 3? Badass game with badass graphics and a very compelling story.
But I'm not going to dump 900 hours into it, because I can't! because there isn't enough to do.
That doesn't mean i didn't thoroughly enjoy it. I just choose to play an MMO for the exceeding amount of content and entertainment it provides me.

I garuntee you... I double dog garun damn tee you... that 99% of humanity will put way more time into a fame like witcher 3, Dragon age, or skyrim than they do in ESO.... and buy subsequent expansion packs... thereby making thise games both MORE FUN ... and MORE PROFITABLE....

You hardcore types had your expirement with wildstar.... and it bombed [snip]

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Profanity]

ElricFrancis · July 2015

Endless-Shogun wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring as hell gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

Go play a single player, story driven game then!

Take away all the progression in an MMO, and you will have a bunch of people enjoying the story, sure, and then leaving, because there wont be *** to do!

People who play MMOs play for longevity of the game, the time required to progress, the ability to dump hours into a game and get hours of entertainment in return.

Witcher 3? Badass game with badass graphics and a very compelling story.
But I'm not going to dump 900 hours into it, because I can't! because there isn't enough to do.
That doesn't mean i didn't thoroughly enjoy it. I just choose to play an MMO for the exceeding amount of content and entertainment it provides me.

I hate to tell you this but there isn't 900 hours of anything in this game there is MAYBE 48 hours and the rest is mindless grinding. If all you want to do is mindlessly whack things sure this is the game but for people who are used to MMOs are used to far more and better even with FTP models these days.

Faulgor · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

What you 'progression' advocates fail to understand is you are literally killing the creativity possibilities.

Instead of trite, overused, and frankly boring as hell gameplay.... we are advocating for content to be judged by its character...

Levels and leveling needs to become extinct, in favor of actually telling a story and game mechanic variety.

There are no "creativity possibilities". We know exactly what games without character progression look like. There are lots of genres like that. RPGs by their very definition are just not one of them.

Log in, pick character and compete just based on skill? I have Street Fighter for that, thanks.

Arezius · July 2015

It's not the problem of playing more, it's the problem of being more powerful because you kill zombies over and over again. If someone gets better than me in pvp because he has a higher rank due to his accomplishment in terms of pvp, then hell yes, I want that. But become better in pvp because someone grinds zombies all days, how can this be good for anyone ?

Aion had a better system for me, where you gain higher ranks in pvp, depending on the players you killed (their ranks, levels, etc...).

In ESO I'm all for Emperor being more powerful than others for example, and it would also be great to have people being more powerful the higher pvp rank they get, I'd have no problem with that, I would even find that awesome : "Look, a general, let's follow this guy, he earned it and must be a good player" instead of "let's follow this one, he never plays pvp but he sure knows how to kill zombies and became mathematically more powerful than everyone else".

To go back to the OP, progression is awesome, but fair progression, not grind and xp potions.

There should be a separate Champion system for pve and pvp.
I don't care if you're more powerful in a dungeon because you killed npcs over and over.
And then another progression in pvp, where only your pvp actions would count.

But of course we'll get even more complaints because any character could not get everything in the game (or hardly) and you'll have a more difficult way to get better at pvp.

Of course people defend the champion system as it is, it doesn't require skills or a brain to become more powerful, that's why people like it.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

Hell... destiny couldn't tell a story with an ACADEMY AWARD winning actor... but they made a crap ton more money than ESO could ever hope to at this point... because they are at least somewhat casual friendly and put together a great basic fameplay system.

It all comes down to the gameplay... tab, point, click is just not interesting enough to replay the content over and over

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

Make a variety of new experiences for the player, not simply add more health and damage to monsters

gard · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

In reality a level 0 *** can get the jump on and kill elite navy SEALS with a level 2 handgun....

In reality a bad news bears team can annihilate world series caliber competition... and historically the worst team in baseball can get a trip to the world series with a wildcard win.

Stuff your 'but but but i spent moar time' whine.

By your argument, a VR 1 can beat a VR 14. I'm confused... Why do you want everyone to be equal again?

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

Why? Because they are brainwashed by fake politics that promote "equality, equal access to everything and entitlement" which only supports laziness and leeching off others.

Endless-Shogun · July 2015

@ElricFrancis
I'm sorry but I won't believe that.
I've put at least 300 hours in so far, and have only grinded once (for 3 hours), and I'm just now at v4.
I want to create one of each class, at least.

What are you doing to your game? lol

@ch.ris317
I put tons of hours into Skyrim, because it was fun, but once I got to about 450 hours, it was empty... no quests left. Super high level, I literally only quit playing it because there wasn't anything else to do. I dont ever see Witcher getting anywhere near that amount of content.

BTW, I am not the hardcore type you're referring too. I play a lot, but by no means hardcore or I'd have 2 or 3 vets by this point. I am enjoying the game.