Coby19 wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result.

You're use of the term "significantly" is up for debate.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one.

This is the point I try to nail home with everyone. The "large artificial factor" must be applied to every passive, not just some. Diminishing returns must be more diminishing if were to make it at all balanced for the newbies.

Your use of the term, "you're" is up for debate.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

parpin wrote: »

you know what..let them defend the whole thing..and think because they can afford to spend lot of time and money(xp scrolls)..they should be stronger than newbie or returning player in terms of stats and not in terms of skill..so a new player who is more skillful and kills them in pvp they get angry..what?? i have been playing more than him i should be able to destroy him..why i have to practice to play skillfully??my money and time should cover every thing for me.
that being said ..there are much better ways to make sure veteran players get to shine in the crowd...specific armor and mount..titles and achievements..etc..it does not have to be stats improvement like what 3rd class asian mmos are offering..this game specifically designed to milk them..let zos make money out of them.

Money? I have over 160 XP potions right now, which time wise last 50 minutes each... earned entirely through normal gameplay. Where does the money come in? I had more than a lot of concern with cash shop XP boosters. They didn't go that route. Instead they added, just prior, in game ones you earn/craft/buy with gold while playing, and they are very affordable in game. The only real usage for the cash shop ones is for subscribers to drop their crowns on if wanted instead of cosmetics, or a brand spanking new player to grab a pack of to help level their first character. That's as far as it goes in the practical sense because of how readily available the in game ones were made. And I applaud how they handled that.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

Oh belive me he does, he preferes not to show those things.

That was covered by the chart and discussion in the OP, right off the bat. I'm sorry, but I don't get your point here?

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

parpin wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

parpin wrote: »

you know what..let them defend the whole thing..and think because they can afford to spend lot of time and money(xp scrolls)..they should be stronger than newbie or returning player in terms of stats and not in terms of skill..so a new player who is more skillful and kills them in pvp they get angry..what?? i have been playing more than him i should be able to destroy him..why i have to practice to play skillfully??my money and time should cover every thing for me.
that being said ..there are much better ways to make sure veteran players get to shine in the crowd...specific armor and mount..titles and achievements..etc..it does not have to be stats improvement like what 3rd class asian mmos are offering..this game specifically designed to milk them..let zos make money out of them.

Money? I have over 160 XP potions right now, which time wise last 50 minutes each... earned entirely through normal gameplay. Where does the money come in? I had more than a lot of concern with cash shop XP boosters. They didn't go that route. Instead they added, just prior, in game ones you earn/craft/buy with gold while playing, and they are very affordable in game. The only real usage for the cash shop ones is for subscribers to drop their crowns on if wanted instead of cosmetics, or a brand spanking new player to grab a pack of to help level their first character. That's as far as it goes in the practical sense because of how readily available the in game ones were made. And I applaud how they handled that.

you forgot the part i said "people with time" that will cover you..also the xp from store is 2 hours in oppose to 50 min..guess which one is better

Hm? Better? At 80 cents an hour for the scroll, I think the in game one is better. I can't say it took much effort to earn these ones in game, and I don't imagine continuing to pile them up will either like I said due to how affordable they are in gold.

Cameron_Star wrote: »

You care way too much about this game.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I agree. But I have a hard time agreeing that the boosts you can earn here fall even remotely into the definition of not being in the same ballpark. Two, three times the power of another player... sure, I'd agree and ask for a rebalance. 10? Even 20%? That doesn't turn someone into an unstoppable superhero in a one on one, let alone a group fight of 10 on 10 on 12, or other arious numbers that turn up.

Cernow wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I agree. But I have a hard time agreeing that the boosts you can earn here fall even remotely into the definition of not being in the same ballpark. Two, three times the power of another player... sure, I'd agree and ask for a rebalance. 10? Even 20%? That doesn't turn someone into an unstoppable superhero in a one on one, let alone a group fight of 10 on 10 on 12, or other arious numbers that turn up.

10% or 20%, it matters not really, it's just a number. It all depends how these differences in power actually translate into player performance. It depends on what stats, passives, skills and abilities are being affected and how they impact on gameplay.

I've spent a lot of time in Cyrodiil and I know what I've seen. It's not about players being much better 1v1 or 10v10. It's about players being better 1v10, even 1v20. I've seen players holding their own solo or duo against 10+ players. And the players they were fighting weren't unskilled idiots, didn't need to L2P, had decent gear etc etc. I've seen players running through the zerg with almost total impunity, impossible to kill. Not pure tanks or healers either, built for survival, but characters capable of also dishing damage. I've teamed with some of these players and I've seen it from both sides of the fence. Many of the players don't seem that comfortable with the power gap, once the initial novelty wears off there's not a lot of fun steamrolling the opposition without any challenge.

What makes this happen? CPs? Broken game mechanics? Broken builds and skills? Probably a combination of all of these things. ZOS threw a crazy amount of variables into the pot when it comes to PvP balance and even if everything was working 100% as intended (which never happens anyway) it was likely to be very difficult to balance. For a team making their first MMO it's probably impossible. But they aren't helping themselves putting open-ended progression like the CP system into the equation. This is already causing problems and it can only fester and worsen over time.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I saw a post by @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO recently, that very much stuck out to me, and struck a chord. I feel that it hits such a crucial, and core, argument as to how roleplaying games are designed and work in an online environment, that it really needs to be expanded on and discussed.

reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I only have 100 CP, I don't grind, have played since beta and I listen to the dialogue and take it slow. As a result my main is only VR 10. Yet my character has a 3.0 + KD in Vet Cyrodiil. I don't know if that is good or not since I didn't PVP that much until recently but I don't see what the problem is with CP? Am I the only one that thinks the system is fine as it is?

I also don't understand why someone like Deltia who grinds constantly and uses any exploits he can to get max level (crab grind, sheep killing etc) and gain CP yet he is sooo upset that people have an unfair advantage with too many CP because he still can't keep up with literally one or two other people out of hundreds of thousands of players.

In MMOs you want your character to feel powerful. Why do people want to nerf the ability to gain very slight ability buffs that have diminishing returns to the point that the difference between putting 99 and 100 CP in one skill tree ability is literally to low a decimal place to even register an increase in buff %?

I also disagree that if I have been playing every day for over a year someone who picks up the game today should be able to catch up to me in progression unless I quit the game. As long as people are earning CP legitimately whether grinding or questing or doing dailies or trials or PVP they have earned those CP through hard work, time and effort.

People not prepared to put work time and effort into the game have no right to feel entitled to have the same level of reward and ability as those who do.

Well, I have to tell you @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO, you aren't the only one. Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

This really does sum up the core of the discussion, I think. The bottom line ends up being that this is an online RPG. RPG's inherently are based around character progression, player skill and tactics, obtaining better gear/gold coins, and learning the combat system to work with the mechanics of the gameplay. A lot of comments here talk about an "even playing field", but that already exists. Everyone has the exact same opportunity and ability to earn champion points, and they are already diminishing in usefulness rapidly the more you gain. You can't balance a game around what the fringe cases are. It simply doesn't represent how nearly anyone really plays, in general. Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I've seen a startling acceptance among some crowds of exploiting, to "level the field" and top scores up, or even outright showing off using them for leveling champion points (or even veteran ranks and normal character levels), getting into keeps or outposts in Cyrodiil PVP, and more. These players feel entitled, for whatever reasons, to cheat ahead of the crowd.

Whether they think they simply deserve it outright, or that the system is somehow "broken", they rationalize it. There are some players, probably in the mid-double-digits if I were to guess, running around with 600, 700, even upwards of a thousand champion points right now. Mind you, this is in a game with millions of players. Guess what? Not only did the majority of these people bot by exploiting bugged mobs or botting grind spots while they slept, but they usually do get banned given some time, and the odds of you running into one of 50, 60, or however many of those players ever is astronomically low. If you lose one fight because of that? That doesn't mean the system's bad. It means cheaters suck, just like they always do, in online gaming.

Now, to get back to the main contention at hand here (the Champion System, Veteran Ranks, and progression as a whole), I wrote a succinct and raw-facts summary of how it all works along with the relevant examples here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190594/primer-champion-points

Yes, you can gain "14.2% more damage" (quote-unquote, because unless you're only using one type of attack, that's a misnomer and not correct) than someone else near the beginning of the system by getting to 270 champion points if they only have 90, for one damage type such as elemental, physical, or magical (poison, disease, and magicka) attacks, by maxing out that one star while they "only" can get 30 points in, for 10.8% damage gained of that attack type.

Let me once more link this in, because it is being fully overlooked, I think, by most of the people recently discussing the champion system who are staunchly against the entire idea of progression in an MMORPG, a genre which incidentally is a subgenre of the RPG:


"Champion Point scaling works in five primary groups, with one or two minor exceptions. The table above shows what you are gaining as you invest more into a single passive, and the lessened value per point between inherent relative diminishment, and the slight exponent on the boosts' power curves."

Read that table. On the BEST scaling group of the five main ones these passives use, you have to spend three and a third times the points, to get a two and a third times the bonus. However, that may sound like a big number, yet it's actually only 14.2% to one damage type as discussed above. It's rare, and difficult, to make anything but a niche build that only uses one damage type. Generally, you'll get about 3/4ths to 4/5ths of your damage overall from that primary type, so already that advantage is dropping in its usefulness towards the ~11% range. That's with having three times the champion level, and this is in the most extreme range of gains and changes you obtain from the system being at the very start. Once you reach the level 500 to 600 range, you see a sharper drop-off.

Ultimately, if you wanted pure, raw balance, you would be playing Chess, or failing that because it's too "boring" for you... you'd be playing a computer-based game that was designed strictly around balance with absolutely zero progression in any way, shape, or form, such as Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament (1999). Battlefield has progression that stays with your account, as does Call of Duty. So does Counter-Strike, and even League of Legends inside of a specific match as you earn cash/gold to buy upgrades as the round goes on. Starcraft 2, does not, but it automatically matches you against players of objectively closer skill levels, so you are progressing on the leaderboard rankings and getting tougher opponents as you get better in your personal skill.

The RPG genre, all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons on pen and paper, is not about 100%, flawless, meticulously crafted equality. Rather, it is based around, and designed for, tactics, planning, and strategy to win the day. On the computer, some reaction time and real-time elements have been introduced, as a compromise between purely turn-based games and purely real-time twitch-based games like Q3 and UT99, for fun factor to the broader market. These all are types of skill, but they are different ones. If you don't like basketball... rather than ask it to be changed to a monstrous hybrid of football, soccer, and baseball, don't play basketball. They conceptually are incompatible with their rulesets and the skills you need, despite sharing a pool of common traits. This is the same with videogames.

/two-dollars' worth of thought. Thanks for reading, all.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_ChrisStrasz, @ZOS_KaiSchober.

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Grinding should not be the only good way to earn champion XP. PVP should provide a nearly equivalent, on average, amount per hour, bearing in mind that by its nature the level of action can be very spikey, as well as whether you're winning or not. Questing should be a bit below as it's readily doable 24/7, low in difficulty, and solo at that. Dungeons should be in-between, and Trials should be a bit higher than everything else because there is downtime involved with forming between runs and it takes 12 people to run them. Now, mind you... I'm not saying that questing should be 1/50th of the XP. I'm talking about more along the lines of 85% of what PVP and PVE grinding yield on average while Trials/etc. would have a bit higher potential on average.