Let's be frank about Roleplaying Games, "keeping up with the Joneses", and exploits.

TheBull

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

So... Basically... "Balance doesn't matter, get used to ".

Good message.

The message is, get the facts and think things through, before spilling directly into outrage. Here are all the facts of how the system works: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190594/primer-champion-points-a-cliffs-notes-well-not-really-presentation

It's not easy to have an honest discussion when half of the participants believe one thing without having the facts they decided upon right in the first place, 49 percent are confused by the first half making inaccurate, or at the very least incomplete, statements that don't line up with the mechanics, and only 1 percent have done the math, before everyone chats.

and still those people keep saying the same thing...

sadownik

TheBull wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Paradox wrote: »

So... Basically... "Balance doesn't matter, get used to ".

Good message.

The message is, get the facts and think things through, before spilling directly into outrage. Here are all the facts of how the system works: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190594/primer-champion-points-a-cliffs-notes-well-not-really-presentation

It's not easy to have an honest discussion when half of the participants believe one thing without having the facts they decided upon right in the first place, 49 percent are confused by the first half making inaccurate, or at the very least incomplete, statements that don't line up with the mechanics, and only 1 percent have done the math, before everyone chats.

and still those people keep saying the same thing...

So is attorneyatlawl, granted eloquently but he puts only half of the picture-the half that fist his narrative. His well known and well made presentation fits in "there are diminishing returns" aria. Problem is, when the diminishing returns really hit. From the threads i have seen it seems its 1000 cp.

But overall its about the most simple thing. People are lazy. To check what cp system does to character strengh its enough to download pts client and try it yourself. I was lazy too, untill that issue surfaced some time ago. Then i did it and let me tell you difference in power between 0 cp and 600 cp is huge. And after adding all of them - well try it yourself, i wont spoil the fun.

AnorielDBC

You're doing the lord's work in here, Attorney

Attorneyatlawl

AnorielDBC wrote: »

You're doing the lord's work in here, Attorney

No one ever said it was easy...

@sadownik , if people did go test it for themselves, they'd readily find that my statements are borne out by the results. Why? I've done that testing already, and math is a fantastic thing in general. It's extremely useful for figuring out the actual differences that result and why . As far as the whole "what if someone has X because hey just started playing, and someone else has Y??!" thing... welcome to the RPG genre. That's been covered extensively in my original post, and others have commented insightfully that there is rarely a situation at endgame, which is where you're earning champion points (a first time player will land at around 50-60 by the time they've finished leveling their veteran ranks), that it boils down to an exactly equal skilled pair of players squaring off in a deathmatch where the relatively small differences (even 15%, which is much more than the average gap would be right now, would mean hitting for 4600 instead of 4000) would really be practically irrelevant in 99.99999999999% of fights where you tried to wrecking blow someone but they dodged immediately and began casting a dark flare, which you were too slow to react to and didn't even cancel your attack out to start moving towards him to interrupt or even block.

sadownik

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

AnorielDBC wrote: »

You're doing the lord's work in here, Attorney

...That's been covered extensively in my original post, and others have commented insightfully that there is rarely a situation at endgame, which is where you're earning champion points (a first time player will land at around 50-60 by the time they've finished leveling their veteran ranks), that it boils down to an exactly equal skilled pair of players squaring off in a deathmatch where the relatively small differences (even 15%, which is much more than the average gap would be right now, would mean hitting for 4600 instead of 4000) would really be practically irrelevant in 99.99999999999% of fights where you tried to wrecking blow someone but they dodged immediately and began casting a dark flare, which you were too slow to react to and didn't even cancel your attack out to start moving towards him to interrupt or even block.

I like your style mate, really do, but look at the above. Reductio ad absurdum in its purest form. 15% doesnt matter. Why? Because your wrekcing blow will hit for 4600 instead of 4000. Only simpleton wouldnt get it. So its obvious that in 99.99999999999% of the fights it wont matter.

But when you think of scenario in which enemy player has 15% more resources (all of them), 15% regeneration of those resources, takes 15% less damage, and got at least first tier of passivies, then i dare to say in 99.99999999999% of the fights it will matter.

And yes i did test that too.

When it comes to the fights, you are again right - this isnt arena, and overall there could be more or less equal number of cp on both sides. But who will go down first? Who will watch the fight through blue deahts filters? And how many times it must happened to state that its not that much fun?

Cheers mate.

Attorneyatlawl

Brandalf wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Unfortunately @Attorneyatlawl, people are creatures of perspective. A person who FEELS that a system is unfair (no matter if it is or not) will continue to find reasons as to why the system is unfair. In this case, any time a player is killed in PVP by another player they will blame it on the better player having more CPs.

In this case we have some of the top PVP players in the game saying the system is flawed.

I'm a modest guy by nature. You've been around long enough to know better than to lump that apart here .

Samadhi

The Champion System is decent in theory. Provide a means of near endless character customization in an MMO setting.

In execution, my computer died, and took me a month and a half to get myself a new power source to fix it.

Upon returning to ESO, noticed a marked decrease in my character's effectiveness in Cyrodiil.
Lost interest in the system.
The less interest it holds for me, the wider the gap becomes. It is a system that punishes me for every moment I am not grinding myself.

When the Champion System was first presented to us, it was proposed as a system that would equalize players and provide meaningful gains no matter how a person chose to play.
Instead, it just became a system that makes hardcore grinders insanely powerful while other gamers may invest large amounts of time into the game and make no progress, before having to face the people who did make progress in battle. This final aspect is even more troubling for new players in pre-Veteran campaigns, where stats are designed to be balanced but the Champion System provides massive imbalance instead.

System looks great on paper, and people can easily write paragraphs defending its worth based on whatever reasons they may choose to make up.
The reality is that the system is mediocre at best, damaging at worst.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Grinding does not equal content... when you figure they now have three different progression systems... that is just insane hamster on the wheel ***

Theycould have implemented new skill lines and quests and kept people playing just as long

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Grinding does not equal content... when you figure they now have three different progression systems... that is just insane hamster on the wheel "silliness"

Theycould have implemented new skill lines and quests and kept people playing just as long

(Edited out your profanity from the quote)

I agree. Just as I said before...

"XP parity is the bigger issue, as PVP especially lags so far behind in your XP gains that it is a loss to do that versus almost anything else in that regard. Questing is somewhat behind too, but the 75% increase (50% patch boost, further compounded by another 50% XP pot to become 75% higher than now) will probably mostly close that gap. You won't ever really be able to truly balance XP gain across various gameplay. But it should be the ideal that ZOS aims for."

The champion system is essentially a new set of skill lines. One of the problems is that you don't get worthwhile XP for it from most things you do in-game.

Hiero_Glyph

The biggest problem is that besides the inherent advantage the CP system isn't designed for customization but broad buffs. It's not like one player will use regeneration bonuses while another is offsetting elemental weakness to improve their respective builds. In the end the CP system promotes the same buffs for everyone regardless of build. The only choices are which skills you invest in first.

If CP was capped at 600 universal points (and increased over time to a max of 1,200) then builds would remain somewhat unique and the total grind would be greatly reduced. Do you invest 400 points to max a single tree or balance them across several different ones? New players would still be disadvantaged but the time to grind is now more manageable and instead of having improved block, regeneration, costs, etc. each player would only have a select few of them or balance them without going for upper tier passives.

Ace_of_Destiny

I am always Frank, and Earnest with women.
In Detroit I am Frank.
In Pittsburgh I am Earnest.

Smiteye

How this thread is sinking while the overblown one by youtube streamer guy is active constantly is mind blowing. Great analysis @Attorneyatlawl.

Smiteye

Atirez wrote: »

Never mind diminishing returns, or anything like that: Skill should always win over.

When it doesn't the game no longer becomes enjoyable and can be likened to other non-skill games like clash of clans.

For those that believe long play time grinding CP should give MOOOAAARRR POWER, yes to a certain degree a slight numerical advantage is OK. But someone who learns to master the game, not grind, should be a better player and that skill should outweigh your grinding. Spending weeks and hours in a gym does not inherently make you a good tennis player.

It does. Champ power isn't big dude.

Brandalf wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Unfortunately @Attorneyatlawl, people are creatures of perspective. A person who FEELS that a system is unfair (no matter if it is or not) will continue to find reasons as to why the system is unfair. In this case, any time a player is killed in PVP by another player they will blame it on the better player having more CPs.

In this case we have some of the top PVP players in the game saying the system is flawed.

And we have one of the top players in the game period saying it isn't. Decide for yourself I know I did. Who cares what a handful of self promoters emotionally inflaming the argument like those guys say?

Attorneyatlawl

Smiteye wrote: »

Atirez wrote: »

Never mind diminishing returns, or anything like that: Skill should always win over.

When it doesn't the game no longer becomes enjoyable and can be likened to other non-skill games like clash of clans.

For those that believe long play time grinding CP should give MOOOAAARRR POWER, yes to a certain degree a slight numerical advantage is OK. But someone who learns to master the game, not grind, should be a better player and that skill should outweigh your grinding. Spending weeks and hours in a gym does not inherently make you a good tennis player.

It does. Champ power isn't big dude.

Brandalf wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Unfortunately @Attorneyatlawl, people are creatures of perspective. A person who FEELS that a system is unfair (no matter if it is or not) will continue to find reasons as to why the system is unfair. In this case, any time a player is killed in PVP by another player they will blame it on the better player having more CPs.

In this case we have some of the top PVP players in the game saying the system is flawed.

And we have one of the top players in the game period saying it isn't. Decide for yourself I know I did. Who cares what a handful of self promoters emotionally inflaming the argument like those guys say?

I'm not a fan of simply stating an opinion and giving no basis as to why, because of the exact thing that dialogue just came to. I've seen a lot of supposition about it being an unstoppable, superhero-creating power difference between someone with say, 400 champion points versus 800, or 600 versus 1400, etc., but there isn't a factual basis for that assertion. Unfortunately, threads titled in an outraged way like "ESO will die from this!" "I hate this!" "ZOS fix this or I quit!" get more page hits, and incite a stronger reaction than just laying out objective facts, providing a bit of framing for the information, and then telling people to decide what they want.

Smiteye

You see this yet?
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193258/the-mmorpg-f-word#latest

Attorneyatlawl

Smiteye wrote: »

You see this yet?
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193258/the-mmorpg-f-word#latest

Yep, I saw it... . For anyone wondering, it's a copy-paste of a lengthy website article getting at the same points I did in this OP... a good read.

Smiteye

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Smiteye wrote: »

You see this yet?
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/193258/the-mmorpg-f-word#latest

Yep, I saw it... . For anyone wondering, it's a copy-paste of a lengthy website article getting at the same points I did in this OP... a good read.

Yes.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Imagine this... Vet ranks Deleted, Cp deleted

Thieves guild skill line and story line

Morag tongue skill line and story line

Thieves guild V Morag tongue PVP instances in every major city


..... scattered throughout the land scape... procedurally generated solo-5 man group caves and bandit hide outs ... scaled to level and with unique rewards

Expanded Dolman system such that an entire zone could be taken over with Daedra... that does not reset until beaten back by players... and add in a mechanic where you have to go into Oblivion to detroy an anchor thats been aeound that long, facing a world boss....

Polearm/melee stave skill line

Crossbow skill line

Fist fighting quick time arenas Vis-a-vi witcher 2

More detailed mount system... with races like witcher 3 ... or the pod racing from Kotor

Unique modifiers on end game content dungeons providing unique challenges like diablo/destiny

Junping puzzles

Additional mage guild and fighters guild story lines... including random dailies in every city... enter a house or instance right outside of town scaled to player level

Expand more on the follower from the crafting skill lines

Companion system with storylines.

Attorney... you are a better staticision than I would ever have the patience to become... and I bet you'll make more money than I could dream of.... but there are a REDONKULOUS amount of ways to keep people playing.... and have a metric T-Rex on a diuretic *** ton more fun! There is no excuse for ZOS.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

I bet your average fan fiction or roleplayer fan could write enough lines for enough random daily foghters/mages guild quests... to keep people playing ad nauseum.... that combined with a procedurally generated cave and bandit camp instance scaled to level would allow people to quesr/explore continuously in their favorite zones...

If you wanted to be really ambitious... make like an 'explorers guild' put in something akin to EVE's wormhole system... and have us try to find and explore different planes of oblivion... instances would be cross faction and PVP enables... so not only do you have to worry about Daedra... but the odd enemy player gank.

There are a thousand different variations... most of them unique and entertaining enough... especially if you write with a sense of humor on guild quests to add in already existing or easy to put in systems.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Also.. if you ran out of voice actors budget... find an excuse for us to take quests from Aedra/daedra, ghosts and use your own people but with voice distortion to hide the amateur acting.

idk

Very true Attl.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

A minigame with half the quality of gwent from witcher 3 would keep people interested far longer than either VET Ranks or C.

NotSo

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Well, I have to tell you @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO, you aren't the only one. Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

This really does sum up the core of the discussion, I think. The bottom line ends up being that this is an online RPG. RPG's inherently are based around character progression, player skill and tactics, obtaining better gear/gold coins, and learning the combat system to work with the mechanics of the gameplay. A lot of comments here talk about an "even playing field", but that already exists. Everyone has the exact same opportunity and ability to earn champion points, and they are already diminishing in usefulness rapidly the more you gain. You can't balance a game around what the fringe cases are. It simply doesn't represent how nearly anyone really plays, in general. Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I gotta cut you off on this. I do not, in any way, support the idea that someone who has put x amount of time in and continues putting time in will never be caught up to by someone who has put in y amount of time and plays less.
If they want to hone their skill in game, that's all fine and dandy. But if they get to pull ahead with stat bonuses from a system that takes years to top out, I am not even going try. Not when I know that putting all my effort into it is not enough to catch up. With the amount of free time I have, it'll take decades.

Level, armor, and skill points should be the only numbers gap between players, and all of those are capped out relatively quickly. Player skill being the only gap that remains.

There are a lot of reasons I don't like the champion system. And there are a lot of reasons that I don't want my MMO character to "feel powerful" (No, I'm not going to gimp myself to avoid this). This game is barely balanced for pve as it is. There isn't even pve content that's balanced for cp, all you're doing is making an already easy game easier.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

NotSo wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Well, I have to tell you @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO, you aren't the only one. Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

This really does sum up the core of the discussion, I think. The bottom line ends up being that this is an online RPG. RPG's inherently are based around character progression, player skill and tactics, obtaining better gear/gold coins, and learning the combat system to work with the mechanics of the gameplay. A lot of comments here talk about an "even playing field", but that already exists. Everyone has the exact same opportunity and ability to earn champion points, and they are already diminishing in usefulness rapidly the more you gain. You can't balance a game around what the fringe cases are. It simply doesn't represent how nearly anyone really plays, in general. Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I gotta cut you off on this. I do not, in any way, support the idea that someone who has put x amount of time in and continues putting time in will never be caught up to by someone who has put in y amount of time and plays less.
If they want to hone their skill in game, that's all fine and dandy. But if they get to pull ahead with stat bonuses from a system that takes years to top out, I am not even going try. Not when I know that putting all my effort into it is not enough to catch up. With the amount of free time I have, it'll take decades.

Level, armor, and skill points should be the only numbers gap between players, and all of those are capped out relatively quickly. Player skill being the only gap that remains.

There are a lot of reasons I don't like the champion system. And there are a lot of reasons that I don't want my MMO character to "feel powerful" (No, I'm not going to gimp myself to avoid this). This game is barely balanced for pve as it is. There isn't even pve content that's balanced for cp, all you're doing is making an already easy game easier.

Precisely... if the base combat is fun, complex, and the skills are varied enough, those that play more WILL have an incredible knowledge and practice advantage... they do not need a whole system enshrining ever increasing mathematical advantages.

And again... especially without any content context... they are adding levels just to keep people playing... to make an illusion of content... when if they'd just scrap the idea altogether they could just concentrate on refining the gameplay to be enjoyable, varied... and having more and better stories to tell.

Smiteye

NotSo wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Well, I have to tell you @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO, you aren't the only one. Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

This really does sum up the core of the discussion, I think. The bottom line ends up being that this is an online RPG. RPG's inherently are based around character progression, player skill and tactics, obtaining better gear/gold coins, and learning the combat system to work with the mechanics of the gameplay. A lot of comments here talk about an "even playing field", but that already exists. Everyone has the exact same opportunity and ability to earn champion points, and they are already diminishing in usefulness rapidly the more you gain. You can't balance a game around what the fringe cases are. It simply doesn't represent how nearly anyone really plays, in general. Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I gotta cut you off on this. I do not, in any way, support the idea that someone who has put x amount of time in and continues putting time in will never be caught up to by someone who has put in y amount of time and plays less.
If they want to hone their skill in game, that's all fine and dandy. But if they get to pull ahead with stat bonuses from a system that takes years to top out, I am not even going try. Not when I know that putting all my effort into it is not enough to catch up. With the amount of free time I have, it'll take decades.

Level, armor, and skill points should be the only numbers gap between players, and all of those are capped out relatively quickly. Player skill being the only gap that remains.

There are a lot of reasons I don't like the champion system. And there are a lot of reasons that I don't want my MMO character to "feel powerful" (No, I'm not going to gimp myself to avoid this). This game is barely balanced for pve as it is. There isn't even pve content that's balanced for cp, all you're doing is making an already easy game easier.

Caught up? ROFL. I kill people in 5 on 1s, the cp system could give a 200% power gain and Id think little of it mattering. It is such a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the effectiveness of your character right now that it is laughable anyones complaining! It is gear just as you were saying was fine, it just doesnt take equipment slots, and maxes at 3600 points!!!!

This is an MMORPG, if you want a truly even field, go play pong. But pong randomizes where the ball goes first, so its kinda imbalanced too. Uhoh.

nimander99

The real truth is it's totally an unfair advantage that people have more time to play than others, I propose that all people with ESO accounts only get 1 hour per day to play the game... that way its "fair".

MrGhosty

I find your examples to be a bit oversimplified for the sake of making your point. As many who would disagree with you about how the statistics are interpreted a better example using another sport would be while user A gets to play normal basketball because they have spent the time doing the right thing. Player B has been playing the same amount of time but not doing the "right" thing so they will playing with them except they can only use your hips to bounce the ball into the hoop while Player A can use their hands. That is the crux of what many are bothered about, we have no issue with the game we have issue with the "rules" being different in the very same match. Then Player C decides they would like to play basketball so they step onto the court but they aren't allowed to run in the match as well as only being able to "shoot" the ball via their hips as well.

I don't think anyone has any issue with RPG mechanics in the game, everyone who is familiar with MMOs knows that there will always be players ahead of you and objectively "stronger". The issue is that the imbalance that is being created doesn't reward those who've invested the time, it rewards those who have invested it "right" and I use quotation marks because in a game that advertised itself from day one as "Play any way you want" having a "right" way to play the game is a bit rich and farcical.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

nimander99 wrote: »

The real truth is it's totally an unfair advantage that people have more time to play than others, I propose that all people with ESO accounts only get 1 hour per day to play the game... that way its "fair".

A game that caters to 8 hour a day no life nerds will not be profitable.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

MrGhosty wrote: »

I find your examples to be a bit oversimplified for the sake of making your point. As many who would disagree with you about how the statistics are interpreted a better example using another sport would be while user A gets to play normal basketball because they have spent the time doing the right thing. Player B has been playing the same amount of time but not doing the "right" thing so they will playing with them except they can only use your hips to bounce the ball into the hoop while Player A can use their hands. That is the crux of what many are bothered about, we have no issue with the game we have issue with the "rules" being different in the very same match. Then Player C decides they would like to play basketball so they step onto the court but they aren't allowed to run in the match as well as only being able to "shoot" the ball via their hips as well.

I don't think anyone has any issue with RPG mechanics in the game, everyone who is familiar with MMOs knows that there will always be players ahead of you and objectively "stronger". The issue is that the imbalance that is being created doesn't reward those who've invested the time, it rewards those who have invested it "right" and I use quotation marks because in a game that advertised itself from day one as "Play any way you want" having a "right" way to play the game is a bit rich and farcical.

TRUE RPG mechanics are not doing X better... but being able to do X, Y, OR Z... with a personality

As a matter of fact... levels, especially THREE different 'progression' systems actually limits the RPG mechanics because it decreases the amount of resources devoted to pushing out content and new experiences....

One does not need endless progression to have endless gameplay...

nimander99

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

The real truth is it's totally an unfair advantage that people have more time to play than others, I propose that all people with ESO accounts only get 1 hour per day to play the game... that way its "fair".

A game that caters to 8 hour a day no life nerds will not be profitable.

Fair point.