Let's be frank about Roleplaying Games, "keeping up with the Joneses", and exploits.

Attorneyatlawl

I saw a post by @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO recently, that very much stuck out to me, and struck a chord. I feel that it hits such a crucial, and core, argument as to how roleplaying games are designed and work in an online environment, that it really needs to be expanded on and discussed.

reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I only have 100 CP, I don't grind, have played since beta and I listen to the dialogue and take it slow. As a result my main is only VR 10. Yet my character has a 3.0 + KD in Vet Cyrodiil. I don't know if that is good or not since I didn't PVP that much until recently but I don't see what the problem is with CP? Am I the only one that thinks the system is fine as it is?

I also don't understand why someone like Deltia who grinds constantly and uses any exploits he can to get max level (crab grind, sheep killing etc) and gain CP yet he is sooo upset that people have an unfair advantage with too many CP because he still can't keep up with literally one or two other people out of hundreds of thousands of players.

In MMOs you want your character to feel powerful. Why do people want to nerf the ability to gain very slight ability buffs that have diminishing returns to the point that the difference between putting 99 and 100 CP in one skill tree ability is literally to low a decimal place to even register an increase in buff %?

I also disagree that if I have been playing every day for over a year someone who picks up the game today should be able to catch up to me in progression unless I quit the game. As long as people are earning CP legitimately whether grinding or questing or doing dailies or trials or PVP they have earned those CP through hard work, time and effort.

People not prepared to put work time and effort into the game have no right to feel entitled to have the same level of reward and ability as those who do.

Well, I have to tell you @reapthetempestrwb17_ESO, you aren't the only one. Not only should you get better as a player, but as a character, when you play a game more. That's true in real life in sports, where you earn more money to get better equipment, practice, and get better at shooting hoops. The same is true in hobbyist videogames.

This really does sum up the core of the discussion, I think. The bottom line ends up being that this is an online RPG. RPG's inherently are based around character progression, player skill and tactics, obtaining better gear/gold coins, and learning the combat system to work with the mechanics of the gameplay. A lot of comments here talk about an "even playing field", but that already exists. Everyone has the exact same opportunity and ability to earn champion points, and they are already diminishing in usefulness rapidly the more you gain. You can't balance a game around what the fringe cases are. It simply doesn't represent how nearly anyone really plays, in general. Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I've seen a startling acceptance among some crowds of exploiting, to "level the field" and top scores up, or even outright showing off using them for leveling champion points (or even veteran ranks and normal character levels), getting into keeps or outposts in Cyrodiil PVP, and more. These players feel entitled, for whatever reasons, to cheat ahead of the crowd.

Whether they think they simply deserve it outright, or that the system is somehow "broken", they rationalize it. There are some players, probably in the mid-double-digits if I were to guess, running around with 600, 700, even upwards of a thousand champion points right now. Mind you, this is in a game with millions of players. Guess what? Not only did the majority of these people bot by exploiting bugged mobs or botting grind spots while they slept, but they usually do get banned given some time, and the odds of you running into one of 50, 60, or however many of those players ever is astronomically low. If you lose one fight because of that? That doesn't mean the system's bad. It means cheaters suck, just like they always do, in online gaming.

Now, to get back to the main contention at hand here (the Champion System, Veteran Ranks, and progression as a whole), I wrote a succinct and raw-facts summary of how it all works along with the relevant examples here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190594/primer-champion-points

Yes, you can gain "14.2% more damage" (quote-unquote, because unless you're only using one type of attack, that's a misnomer and not correct) than someone else near the beginning of the system by getting to 270 champion points if they only have 90, for one damage type such as elemental, physical, or magical (poison, disease, and magicka) attacks, by maxing out that one star while they "only" can get 30 points in, for 10.8% damage gained of that attack type.

Let me once more link this in, because it is being fully overlooked, I think, by most of the people recently discussing the champion system who are staunchly against the entire idea of progression in an MMORPG, a genre which incidentally is a subgenre of the RPG:


"Champion Point scaling works in five primary groups, with one or two minor exceptions. The table above shows what you are gaining as you invest more into a single passive, and the lessened value per point between inherent relative diminishment, and the slight exponent on the boosts' power curves."

Read that table. On the BEST scaling group of the five main ones these passives use, you have to spend three and a third times the points, to get a two and a third times the bonus. However, that may sound like a big number, yet it's actually only 14.2% to one damage type as discussed above. It's rare, and difficult, to make anything but a niche build that only uses one damage type. Generally, you'll get about 3/4ths to 4/5ths of your damage overall from that primary type, so already that advantage is dropping in its usefulness towards the ~11% range. That's with having three times the champion level, and this is in the most extreme range of gains and changes you obtain from the system being at the very start. Once you reach the level 500 to 600 range, you see a sharper drop-off.

Ultimately, if you wanted pure, raw balance, you would be playing Chess, or failing that because it's too "boring" for you... you'd be playing a computer-based game that was designed strictly around balance with absolutely zero progression in any way, shape, or form, such as Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament (1999). Battlefield has progression that stays with your account, as does Call of Duty. So does Counter-Strike, and even League of Legends inside of a specific match as you earn cash/gold to buy upgrades as the round goes on. Starcraft 2, does not, but it automatically matches you against players of objectively closer skill levels, so you are progressing on the leaderboard rankings and getting tougher opponents as you get better in your personal skill.

The RPG genre, all the way back to Dungeons and Dragons on pen and paper, is not about 100%, flawless, meticulously crafted equality. Rather, it is based around, and designed for, tactics, planning, and strategy to win the day. On the computer, some reaction time and real-time elements have been introduced, as a compromise between purely turn-based games and purely real-time twitch-based games like Q3 and UT99, for fun factor to the broader market. These all are types of skill, but they are different ones. If you don't like basketball... rather than ask it to be changed to a monstrous hybrid of football, soccer, and baseball, don't play basketball. They conceptually are incompatible with their rulesets and the skills you need, despite sharing a pool of common traits. This is the same with videogames.

/two-dollars' worth of thought. Thanks for reading, all.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_ChrisStrasz, @ZOS_KaiSchober.

Cameron_Star

You care way too much about this game.

Attorneyatlawl

Cameron_Star wrote: »

You care way too much about this game.

It's a hobby . If you think this is too much caring, imagine how much thought I give to things I really do care about and work on .

Khenarthi

Your post, sir, was just awesome and insightful at the same time. It's a pity I can only give you a point in one category.

Sithisvoid

I agree 100%. Nicely written post thanks for taking the time.

HxC

Thank you

Our ambassador is great !

Zheg

I think a lot of the complaints are rooted in how linear the champion point gains are vs. having a stronger diminishing return. Sure, the final numbers may not be game-breaking, but if that's the case, why would it matter if the final numbers were closer to the previous values the deeper in you go? If your 4% or so difference isn't a big deal, then it's not a big deal for it to have a difference of 1%.

I agree that people playing the game more should reap the reward, but there still needs to be a good balance struck so the deck isn't horrendously stacked against a more green player. I think in general ESO combat allows for this, but I also see a need for champion points to start to give lower rewards the higher into a star you go, as that's sort of the intended design - whether or not ZOS was successful at it.

I don't know, maybe it's just because I'm more of a pvp'er, but I really don't have a problem if newer players gain the xp that took me forever to quest through quicker than I did, because I like knowing when I beat someone, I beat them because I played well or they played poorly, not because I spend so much time in the game and have stats that made the fight heavily stacked. Minor boosts are fine, but I like a competitive field.

As an aside, your allusion to chess is a poor one. GW2 should be considered a major competitor for ESO, and their SPVP system has everyone choose from the same gear/enchantments, etc., but still allows for different classes, skills, and builds to arise. I found it incredibly fun, and far more of an rpg-style than a chess-style. So, it CAN be done. I'm not advocating that this is the best way for ESO to go, but I think your chess example is off the spectrum so you can make your point, and I think you're missing the fact that other major mmo's have proven you can get close to the sweet spot.

Cherryblossom

What your essentially saying is once you have reached 500-600 points there is very little improvement.

Yes wonderful, awesome, but it would seem you have missed the point! You have to get there whilst others are already there, you cannot disagree that a 10% bonus gives you a distinct advantage over another player who don't have it...

This create's huge divisions within the player base, those with CP and those without. How do you balance for these differences.
PVE; New content is either too hard for new players without CP or to easy for those with loads.
PVP; pretty obvious really.

Also your whole premise is that there will be no additions to the CS, so this would beg the question, whats the point of gaining points when it at some point it gives no progression!

In DnD the DM would suit the encouters to the Party, this is not possible with CS points.

Rune_Relic

Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I stopped reading at that point.
I have no time for people who sympathise with exploiters and cheaters and say...hey that's life.
That crap only exists if its tolerated and permitted.

The mistake you are making is believing the game is here for YOUR personal benefit at the expense of all others.
You feel the ability for you to become a God and wreck all before you far out weighs the desire of those around you not to be wrecked.
You feel that's the way gameplay has been to date so that makes it OK.
That originates from a single player rpg mentality where you never had to give a crap about anyone else.
The enemy was NPCs.... no one gave a crap.

My opinion is all games have failed to date for exactly that reason.
Hence the obligatory problem of people jumping ship endlessly as soon as an alternative arrives.
The elite grind and grind.
The elite become more powerful.
The masses just end up fodder time after time.
The masses leave out of frustration as soon as they realise they can never compete.
The game ends.

Your selfishness and the game creators pandering to it is what will kill this game.
Personally I avoid PVP at all costs now it has become so unbalanced and full of exploits.
When PVE ends up the same way, I too will walk away from the game and leave you to enjoy....until ZOS pulls the plug due to lack of players.

You need to look through the eyes of the masses if you want this game to prosper.
Not the eyes of the elite at the top who want nothing but more invulnerability so they can kill 50 players at once instead of 30.

Rook_Master

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

Cuyler

Cherryblossom wrote: »

What your essentially saying is once you have reached 500-600 points there is very little improvement.

Yes wonderful, awesome, but it would seem you have missed the point! You have to get there whilst others are already there, you cannot disagree that a 10% bonus gives you a distinct advantage over another player who don't have it...

This create's huge divisions within the player base, those with CP and those without. How do you balance for these differences.
PVE; New content is either too hard for new players without CP or to easy for those with loads.
PVP; pretty obvious really.

Also your whole premise is that there will be no additions to the CS, so this would beg the question, whats the point of gaining points when it at some point it gives no progression!

In DnD the DM would suit the encouters to the Party, this is not possible with CS points.

Naw....You've missed the point. There has to be progression in MMORPGs. There will be differences in player power, that is what progression is. Stop complaining and go out and get yo CPs!

How do you balance it? One word.........scaling. Plenty of other games do it. ZOS on the other hand doesn't seem capable or they simply don't have the manpower at this time.

Cuyler

Zheg wrote: »

I think a lot of the complaints are rooted in how linear the champion point gains are vs. having a stronger diminishing return.

This is a legitimate concern. As it is now about half of the CP passives are more linear whereas they should have an exponential drop off in gains. The other half are fine.

HeroOfNone

It's an interesting discussion, I think you miss something here though depending where you place the points though, because the passives can kick in. There may be small spikes in damage due to some of these and how they accommodate playstyles.


Now, if you want to take the issue with these benefits, and the constant arms race we have that force folks to feel they need to exploit grind spots, let's talk min/maxing.

I don't discourage folks getting the most out of their builds or for finding a secret combo that helps them take out a boss faster. The issue I have is that certain trails and challenges are set by a min/max player and others are not going to match that. It sounds like a care bear mentality I know, but when the bosses you face in certain speed runs require someone that can pull 20k dps due to a specific combo of 30+ cp into elemental damage, martial knowledge, cyrodiil's light, to rugs Pact or master weapons, and Valkyn Skoria set to over proc the dungeon sets yet no other set or build will help you accomplish it... there is an issue.

Devs made bosses fun and challenging, good, but it's really supposed to be "play as you want", not to be pigeon holed into a few sets, builds, and advancements to be able to do end game content. Certain bosses though are absolutely DPS races and seeing Vet COA's mechanics have a DPS requirement over 6k with no mistakes really makes me question where we're going at times. Look at some of the other bosses, few have dps gates and are fun because of mechanics, not simply for how much damage you needed to rack up.

I sincerely hope with imperial city and future content that the focus on ways to allow mechanics and skill take center stage, not folks that have racked up the most CP points or groups that are stack and whackING them down. Get enough of that in AA or a Hel Rah run.

Kas

i think there's also another side to that. with an mmo, rpg and so on, you're often doing something you don't fully enjoy but you do it for a reward. ultimately, this prospective reward makes gaming an enjoyable experience, even with the process itself can be stressful and not too much fun at times. these game live from that mechanic.

many (sure not all, maybe like the originally quoted person) value this progression or goal that much out of a competetive view. just like in a sport, you want to compete, measure your skill against others. if you cannot compete for the top spot, that may actually be fine. amateur sports exist for a reason and challenges are still taken seriously.

if you think training (sports) or doing game activity X (e.g. grind, ideally playing the part of the game that you enjoy) will help you imrpove, that makes you enjoy hard training and playing such games. however, if an easy way exists (and is probably hidden from you), that takes the entire fun out of it.

i can enjoy a tough grind if it is for a reason (i don't think eso is very grindy atm, btw). i couldn't if i knew there was a cheap way around (e.g. a bot).

now let's go away from the "big" bad stuff like botting. say you (anyone) level a twink you want to be a stamina DD. you may want to level undaunted to 9 and at least get caltrops from pvp to make him more efficient. this will take some time but offer a reward: you're getting more efficient at dps'ing. but hey, you enjoy to work for improvements.

now there are two morphs of the hunter skill: one that sounds bettere on paper for your purpose and the other one miraculously (bugged) remains active longer than intended when charged by killign undead. with that bug, it's vastly superior to the other one. you know for a fact that players you want to compete with use the bugged one. I think it is very understandable that you will use that morph, too. after all, it is a much bigger gain than getting undaunted to 9 and caltrops but so much less effort is required.

thus, you exploit broken mechanics. just stopping to do so isn't going to work either. the whole fun from playing that char came from the goal to be efficient. if you gave up on this low hanging fruit, eventhing else would be rendered useless.

hence, the only way you can keep your fun and refrain form using the bugged one is to ask zenimax to remove the bug. i truely believe such forum-qq is justified.

PS: I don't think camo hunter is such a big deal.i just think it's an obvious example where many upstanding players that would never use macros, let alone bot, still exploit broken game mechanics.

Attorneyatlawl

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I stopped reading at that point.
I have no time for people who sympathise with exploiters and cheaters and say...hey that's life.
That crap only exists if its tolerated and permitted.

Excuse me?

"I've seen a startling acceptance among some crowds of exploiting, to "level the field" and top scores up, or even outright showing off using them for leveling champion points (or even veteran ranks and normal character levels), getting into keeps or outposts in Cyrodiil PVP, and more. These players feel entitled, for whatever reasons, to cheat ahead of the crowd."
"That doesn't mean the system's bad. It means cheaters suck, just like they always do, in online gaming."

Maybe you should read what you're responding to first.

Cuyler wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

I think a lot of the complaints are rooted in how linear the champion point gains are vs. having a stronger diminishing return.

This is a legitimate concern. As it is now about half of the CP passives are more linear whereas they should have an exponential drop off in gains. The other half are fine.

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result .

Rook_Master wrote: »

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

And if you have 300 CP at this point... you can have the bulk of it, as you gain nearly 2/3 of those numbers . Hence the point of that chart. Like you mentioned... "do you see the bigger picture"? Someone who has earned double the champion points, gets those 25% numbers while you still receive 61.6% of the same bonus amounts they worked to gain.

HeroOfNone

An addition on my post, I don't care how strong another player is or about keeping up with the Jones most times, PVP is competitive and leaderboards are ok to a degree. The distinction I make is when just being able to complete certain content requires a particular build and a good 90-80% of end game sets are garbage.

Attorneyatlawl

HeroOfNone wrote: »

An addition on my post, I don't care how strong another player is or about keeping up with the Jones most times, PVP is competitive and leaderboards are ok to a degree. The distinction I make is when just being able to complete certain content requires a particular build and a good 90-80% of end game sets are garbage.

Now this point, I can agree on... unfortunately, unless you trivialize certain content to a large degree, it is essentially impossible to make it completeable by every, or even nearly every, build. Allow it to be beaten/scored well on by the most broken builds, and anything average or decently well-put-together will demolish it... let alone the best builds/players, making it easy enough to the point where it is literally boring.

Cuyler

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result.

[Edit]

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one.

This is the point I try to nail home with everyone. The "large artificial factor" must be applied to every passive, not just some. Diminishing returns must be more diminishing if were to make it at all balanced for the newbies.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Woeler

--edit--
*Nevermind, I'm an idiot*

Morvul

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I stopped reading at that point.
I have no time for people who sympathise with exploiters and cheaters and say...hey that's life.
That crap only exists if its tolerated and permitted.

Excuse me?

"I've seen a startling acceptance among some crowds of exploiting, to "level the field" and top scores up, or even outright showing off using them for leveling champion points (or even veteran ranks and normal character levels), getting into keeps or outposts in Cyrodiil PVP, and more. These players feel entitled, for whatever reasons, to cheat ahead of the crowd."
"That doesn't mean the system's bad. It means cheaters suck, just like they always do, in online gaming."

Maybe you should read what you're responding to first.

Cuyler wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

I think a lot of the complaints are rooted in how linear the champion point gains are vs. having a stronger diminishing return.

This is a legitimate concern. As it is now about half of the CP passives are more linear whereas they should have an exponential drop off in gains. The other half are fine.

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result .

Rook_Master wrote: »

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

And if you have 300 CP at this point... you can have the bulk of it, as you gain nearly 2/3 of those numbers . Hence the point of that chart. Like you mentioned... "do you see the bigger picture"? Someone who has earned double the champion points, gets those 25% numbers while you still receive 61.6% of the same bonus amounts they worked to gain.

I know you love your chart @Attorneyatlawl, but it's actually very, very missleading...
yes, there are strong diminishing returns on the first 10 CP one invests into each individual star, and decent diminishing returns on the next 20. But then the curve turns into something almost linear. Since your chart always includes those first segment in each comparison, you always see some diminishing returns - even in cases where they are actually not present for the majority of points.

As I keep repeating like the broken record:
the CP system is perfectly set up to keep the powerlevel of a player with 35 CP somewhat balanced to a player with 100 CP (due to inherent diminishing returns of the individual stars)
the CP system is also perfectly set up to keep the powerlevel of a player with 1000 CP somewhat balanced to a player with 3000 CP (due to running out of usefull stars to invest in)

However, the CP system is not perfectly set up to keep the power level of a 300 CP player somewhat balanced to the powerlevel of a player with 900 CP. THAT is the issue. both of those players are beyond the "per star" diminishing return zone, but both of those players have not yet run out of almost equally usefull things to invest in. Hence the 900 CP player gains much, much more benefits from the CP system than the 300 CP player. 3 times as much benefit? no... not quite... but surprisingly close

HeroOfNone

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

An addition on my post, I don't care how strong another player is or about keeping up with the Jones most times, PVP is competitive and leaderboards are ok to a degree. The distinction I make is when just being able to complete certain content requires a particular build and a good 90-80% of end game sets are garbage.

Now this point, I can agree on... unfortunately, unless you trivialize certain content to a large degree, it is essentially impossible to make it completeable by every, or even nearly every, build. Allow it to be beaten/scored well on by the most broken builds, and anything average or decently well-put-together will demolish it... let alone the best builds/players, making it easy enough to the point where it is literally boring.

They don't have to dumb down bosses, but increase skills and itemization builds to work and get rid of the ones that are hyper stacking the damage. The bosses will fall in line with that. In addition, as I mentioned in my longer post, mechanics should always come above stack and whacking your way through.

Ahzek

@Attorneyatlawl
One thing you forgot about the progress made with allocating more and more champion points is the stat increase that comes with it wich gives another (significant) advantage of power to those who have more CP respecively.

While it is true that from 30 to 100 CP the advantage of power might only be 14% more damage in one dmg type you alsomhave to look at other benefits. That player with 100 CP also has 14% bigger shields and 14% higher regen for example in addition to higher pools wich boost damage and survivability respectively as well so in the end he might come out with his main abilities hitting for ~2k (on smthing like a fragment or wrecking blow) more while having a 2k bigger harness amgicka/hardened ward, etc. and a higher healthpool as well.

On top of that with more CP comes the opportunity to invest in different stars more efficiently so with another 100 CP you get maybe 14% higher critical damage as well as 10% block cost reduction and a nice little ~9% cost reduction to your spells plus ofc even more stats.

With another 100 CP we get clsoe to the really dangerous territory. With the 120 point passives unlocking soon (unchained or a 14k shield on block every so many seconds) it can quickly become impossible for a lowe CP player to kill a player with high CP count even if he is way more skilled than that player. It doesnt matter if you got that sorc feared for 3.5 seconds and he was dumb enough to blow all his stamina (wich is hardly possible with that many CP) when you have to get through giant shields first only to get him to 50% when he just blocks, and shields it all up again without having to worry a slightest bit.

The problem with Cp is NOT that it is a progression system that makes your charecter more powerfull but that it provides so much power wirhout having to invest any skill or effort into it (apart from time and xp pots) that in the end strategy and skill of the inferior player just cease to matter when his opponent has several hundreds of cp on him because he decided to grind them out.
Tactics, planning and strategy become worthless with the CS when your opponent just takes 20% less damage from you deals 20% more on top of that and has no chance to run out of resources ever. This is not about finetuning everything this is about a numeral advantage that makes some fights impossible to win, very similar to a low lvl player attacking a veteran in top gear even if that low lvl player has way more skill and experience (might be an alt) than the veteran.

When you now set an actually skilled player behind the char with enourmos amounts of CP you have the perfect reicpe to slaughter everyone with new and slower players being left in the dirt.

@sypher who i think most agree is pretty decent at pvp himself, has outlined the impact of CP on fights from his personal experience.

There are many solutions to these power gaps (some good some worse) out there and i wont touch on them here but in the end it becomes quite obvious to me that simething has to be done in order to allow some kind of even playing field where skill actually matter even if you opponent has way more CP than you do.

mrskinskull

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Exceptional people, players, and examples exist in just about anything you can name in life. And yes, so do cheaters, exploiters, and other "not cool" things.

I stopped reading at that point.
I have no time for people who sympathise with exploiters and cheaters and say...hey that's life.
That crap only exists if its tolerated and permitted.

The mistake you are making is believing the game is here for YOUR personal benefit at the expense of all others.
You feel the ability for you to become a God and wreck all before you far out weighs the desire of those around you not to be wrecked.
You feel that's the way gameplay has been to date so that makes it OK.
That originates from a single player rpg mentality where you never had to give a crap about anyone else.
The enemy was NPCs.... no one gave a crap.

My opinion is all games have failed to date for exactly that reason.
Hence the obligatory problem of people jumping ship endlessly as soon as an alternative arrives.
The elite grind and grind.
The elite become more powerful.
The masses just end up fodder time after time.
The masses leave out of frustration as soon as they realise they can never compete.
The game ends.

Your selfishness and the game creators pandering to it is what will kill this game.
Personally I avoid PVP at all costs now it has become so unbalanced and full of exploits.
When PVE ends up the same way, I too will walk away from the game and leave you to enjoy....until ZOS pulls the plug due to lack of players.

You need to look through the eyes of the masses if you want this game to prosper.
Not the eyes of the elite at the top who want nothing but more invulnerability so they can kill 50 players at once instead of 30.

You should have kept reading. I think you missed the point.

loyalhabsfan

Cuyler wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result.

You're use of the term "significantly" is up for debate.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one.

This is the point I try to nail home with everyone. The "large artificial factor" must be applied to every passive, not just some. Diminishing returns must be more diminishing if were to make it at all balanced for the newbies.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

mrskinskull

Its only the PvP ERS who have a prob with champ points. In pve it doesn't really matter. All zos has to do is create a cup tiered PvP server system and let the cheaters, exploiters and long grinders kill each other until the cows come home.


It may motivate a Pplayer not to grind so he doesn't get put into the top tier server campaign. let's be honest when my level 20 non vet rank takes down a vet 14 in PvP, that's skill, all day every day.

When a vet 14 steam rolls a level 10 non vet there's no skill, honor, or challenge.


As a result the cheaters, grinders, and long grinders are prob not skilled because how often do they face a real challenge?

Lets have a heavy weight division for characters.

Let's lump in that vet 14 s new. Character the one with all the champ points even though the screen says its level 10.

There's a reason the non vet servers run so well and play so fun. The combat is more or less ranked. Just rank from the top as well and force the crazy high champ point people into the same game.

Problem solved.

Fat_Cat45

I skimmed through this, but i believe everyone missed one major point that not many people know about the champion system.

If a player has 30k magicka with zero champion points, their magicka pool will increase by 50 percent when they invest all 1,200. Making them end up with 45k magicka instead of 30k magicka (1200 vs 0).

This bonus is applied to each respective resource pool from each of the 3 champion trees.

But, it doesn't stop there. The bonus to resource pools is applied to your base total, making it able to be increased by skills, items, and passives which increase total % of that resource. So in reality, a Breton with Inner Light, Bound Armor, and racial passives would actually boost from 30k magicka to around 52k magicka after spending 1,200 points in the Mage tree.

In my opinion this is more of an issue than the passives in the champion trees themselves. It means a tank with 600 points in all 3 trees will be about 30% stronger in every way than a tank with zero champion points in the same exact gear. And this is only regarding resource pools, I'm not including the actual passives themselves in the comparison.

sadownik

Rook_Master wrote: »

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

Oh belive me he does, he preferes not to show those things.

Armitas

I think there should be a player gap in any game. It is healthy when managed and prevents stagnation. There should be gear that is better than other gear and more difficult to obtain, and CP is very similar to that classic system. That gap should be managed though, it should never appear insurmountable or overwhelming as to cause a new person to give up on closing that gap.

In the case of gear gap there is a reset every time there is an expansion or level cap increase. CP will never be reset, the gap will only stop growing when someone caps out. The potential it provides isn't a linear progression either, it's gestalt, it runs across several aspects that when combined create greater outcomes then their separate parts provide individually.

This gap should be managed, right now it's being mismanaged and flat out encouraged by the cash shop. Just as gear has seasons, CP should as well.

Attorneyatlawl

Coby19 wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

See my chart. There are inherent diminishing returns... on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one. In both cases, the gains do go down significantly for each set of points you toss in, as a result.

You're use of the term "significantly" is up for debate.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

on some of the passives, there is a large artificial factor added in, while others it is a very slight one.

This is the point I try to nail home with everyone. The "large artificial factor" must be applied to every passive, not just some. Diminishing returns must be more diminishing if were to make it at all balanced for the newbies.

Your use of the term, "you're" is up for debate.

Hehe. @Cuyler, there isn't any need for an even larger artificial factor on most of them, due to, as I keep mentioning, inherent relative diminishment. It automatically, with even hypothetically zero artificial factor, would be diminishing for each gain compared to the last. Gain 5% extra damage, and go to 10? That's double, or a 100% improvement! Go to the same extra 5% gain now and arrive at 15? That's only half more this time, or a 50% improvement. Get another 5? This time it's only a 33% gain as compared to before, going from a 15% boost to a 20% one. The most important passives with the largest potential gameplay impact already have significant overall artificial scaling factors applied to boot. The worst passive scaling caps at 15.8% gain total, rather than 25% like I used in the example just now.

And yes, as I mentioned, with 900cp, you will gain, in comparison to someone that has only earned 300cp, 6k magicka, HP, and stamina. You can get significantly more by spending countless hours pvp'ing, trial'ing, and farming for gold. The only difference is this happens as a side effect, though it can be a goal too, and helps your alt characters stay viable even without yet hitting Undaunted 9, or Alliance War assault/support line rank 10, and gives you something at least for doing anything. XP parity is the bigger issue, as PVP especially lags so far behind in your XP gains that it is a loss to do that versus almost anything else in that regard. Questing is somewhat behind too, but the 75% increase (50% patch boost, further compounded by another 50% XP pot to become 75% higher than now) will probably mostly close that gap. You won't ever really be able to truly balance XP gain across various gameplay. But it should be the ideal that ZOS aims for.

parpin

you know what..let them defend the whole thing..and think because they can afford to spend lot of time and money(xp scrolls)..they should be stronger than newbie or returning player in terms of stats and not in terms of skill..so a new player who is more skillful and kills them in pvp they get angry..what?? i have been playing more than him i should be able to destroy him..why i have to practice to play skillfully??my money and time should cover every thing for me.
that being said ..there are much better ways to make sure veteran players get to shine in the crowd...specific armor and mount..titles and achievements..etc..it does not have to be stats improvement like what 3rd class asian mmos are offering..

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Attorneyatlawl

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

That's a nice chart, but it kind of distracts from the real problem with CP.

You're only focusing on the 25% damage increase.

There is also:

25% block cost reduction
25% dodge roll / CC break reduction
25% damage shield increase
25% stamina regen
25% mana regen

Which, if you have 600 CP at this point, you can have all of that!

Do you start to see the bigger picture?

Oh belive me he does, he preferes not to show those things.

That was covered by the chart and discussion in the OP, right off the bat. I'm sorry, but I don't get your point here?