No "Recovery" Mechanic? 721k CXP/Hour

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

With enlig+scroll, and you don't need to enter Cyrodiil. Yep, no recovery mechanic...

DaveMoeDee · July 2015

How is that a recovery mechanic when people with the most CP can do the same?

I personally have no problem with the current CP setup, but what you are saying is like trying to solve the person in front of my blocking my view by giving us both higher chairs...

NotSo · July 2015

Any kind of xp grinding, I'm out.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

How is that a recovery mechanic when people with the most CP can do the same?

That's like saying rich people should throw away their money to people, just because they have excess money in their bank account.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

NotSo wrote: »

Any kind of xp grinding, I'm out.

This is the least exp grind you'll ever witness in any game.

pjwb16_ESO · July 2015

gtfo with your cp grind, hope you stay in ya pve and dont destroy pp balance at least -.-

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

gtfo with your cp grind, hope you stay in ya pve and dont destroy pp balance at least -.-

pjwb16_ESO · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

You grind skill levels in Skyrim so what's the difference? None.

pjwb16_ESO · July 2015

i dont play skyrim?

leepalmer95 · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

You grind skill levels in Skyrim so what's the difference? None.

Skyrim isn't an mmorpg with pvp?

Emma_Overload · July 2015

What do you guys mean by "recovery mechanic"? What is OP trying to say?

Alcast · July 2015

low, you can do 1,4mil/h if you fast

Molsondry · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

What do you guys mean by "recovery mechanic"? What is OP trying to say?

He is trying to show us that we can catchup . But the fact the the players with alreay alot of cp can do same makes its not so much catch up mechanics, And any way Grinding....

With xp scroll the cave in cyro can give you 1.2million /hour thats 3 cp per hour you can easely earn 12/16 cp + per day its even worse that it has ever been.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

With enlig+scroll, and you don't need to enter Cyrodiil. Yep, no recovery mechanic...

In a good grinding spot, with only two people in a group I can do up to 800k - 900k regular XP / hour, without enlightenment, without Psijic Ambrosia or XP scroll, without even being ESO Plus member.

If enlightened, it is easy for anyone to earn a CP every 20-30min. Enlightenment is a convenient and well considered "catch up" mechanism. However, if you will be away from the game more than 12 days, you still only get up to 12 champion points worth of enlightenment.

In my case due to work I may take breaks from the game for months at a time. Previously I took a break for 8 months and it was easy to catch up by quickly earning a few VR levels and figuring out a new build, etc., and get to a point where I was at least somewhat competitive with most players in Cyrodiil. With the CP system, however, it's going to be challenging to do this if I take a break for a few months.

If enlightenment was extended to stack indefinitely or at least up to a few months instead of 12 days, it would alleviate a lot of these concerns.

(Incidentally, not sure if your add-on is one of the ones that incorrectly reports XP/hour as multiplied by 4 when you are enlightened, but if so, you are actually only earning 180k XP/ hour, which is relatively low for grinding especially if you are using XP scroll.)
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Emma_Overload · July 2015

Molsondry wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

What do you guys mean by "recovery mechanic"? What is OP trying to say?

He is trying to show us that we can catchup . But the fact the the players with alreay alot of cp can do same makes its not so much catch up mechanics, And any way Grinding....

With xp scroll the cave in cyro can give you 1.2million /hour thats 3 cp per hour you can easely earn 12/16 cp + per day its even worse that it has ever been.

Interesting. I'm only earning about 500K CXP/hour right now, but that's without scrolls. I guess I could hit 750 with the scroll, but I'm not that desperate... yet, LOL.

The biggest problem about that cave, in my opinion, is that it's hard for DC players to get to. ZoS really needs to make better grinding spots outside of Cyrodiil, so PvEers don't have to deal with this crap.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

What do you guys mean by "recovery mechanic"? What is OP trying to say?

He is trying to show us that we can catchup . But the fact the the players with alreay alot of cp can do same makes its not so much catch up mechanics, And any way Grinding....

With xp scroll the cave in cyro can give you 1.2million /hour thats 3 cp per hour you can easely earn 12/16 cp + per day its even worse that it has ever been.

Interesting. I'm only earning about 500K CXP/hour right now, but that's without scrolls. I guess I could hit 750 with the scroll, but I'm not that desperate... yet, LOL.

The biggest problem about that cave, in my opinion, is that it's hard for DC players to get to. ZoS really needs to make better grinding spots outside of Cyrodiil, so PvEers don't have to deal with this crap.

I'm grinding in spellscar, took me like 20-25 mins to level up, takes longer if you keep going without repairing your gear.

J2JMC · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

How is that a recovery mechanic when people with the most CP can do the same?

That's like saying rich people should throw away their money to people, just because they have excess money in their bank account.

Actually it'd be more accurate to say "That's like telling rich people to not use the same methods poor people use to make money."

Beyond that, the recovery mechanic desired isn't based off a set threshold of cp. It's based off of the cp numbers of other players. No one would be asking for a recovery mechanic if the highest amount of cp in the game right now was 30 or if cp was considered to not have a large impact on stats. Because neither of the aforementioned scenarios are the case however, people aren't asking for a recovery mechanic and this isn't it. It is a way to grind xp fast, but people with large amounts of cp are going to use the same method(assuming there isn't a faster one) and still be ahead. Therefore, people will still ask for a recovery mechanic.

Edit* Wrote a nice little page but realized the extra stuff would be better used on a different thread. The above should suffice.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

Beyond that, the recovery mechanic desired isn't based off a set threshold of cp. It's based off of the cp numbers of other players. No one would be asking for a recovery mechanic if the highest amount of cp in the game right now was 30 or if cp was considered to not have a large impact on stats. Because neither of the aforementioned scenarios are the case however, people aren't asking for a recovery mechanic and this isn't it. It is a way to grind xp fast, but people with large amounts of cp are going to use the same method(assuming there isn't a faster one) and still be ahead. Therefore, people will still ask for a recovery mechanic.

So the people with more CP than the next guy should stop playing so that the other guy with less CP can, hopefully, gain on him? That's total nonsense. Capping progression is bad game design in my eyes. They did that in WoW with the reputation in MoP. You could only get X amount of reputation each day because you got your reputation from daily quests. It was not received well by the player-base so they changed it later on in the expansion.

What ZOS could do is give everyone a base amount of CP once you hit level 50. Let's say 35 or 50 to start off with...

I don't want ESO turn into some wellfare game where you get stuff handed to you in your hands each month, or turn this into a glorified example of communism where everyone should be equal. It would me a mind numbing boring game if they decided to go that route.

J2JMC · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

So the people with more CP than the next guy should stop playing so that the other guy with less CP can, hopefully, gain on him? That's total nonsense. Capping progression is bad game design in my eyes. They did that in WoW with the reputation in MoP. You could only get X amount of reputation each day because you got your reputation from daily quests. It was not received well by the player-base so they changed it later on in the expansion.

What ZOS could do is give everyone a base amount of CP once you hit level 50. Let's say 35 or 50 to start off with...

I don't want ESO turn into some wellfare game where you get stuff handed to you in your hands each month, or turn this into a glorified example of communism where everyone should be equal. It would me a mind numbing boring game if they decided to go that route.

It is nonsense. I wasn't writing that to say it was okay, I was simply using a more appropriate example for what he was saying.

Giving everyone 50 cp from jump would not be necessary if the system was implemented better. The system is flawed.

I don't agree with the recovery mechanic, however I also don't agree with what's supposed to be an illusion of endless progression causing a significant mathematical advantage. Especially when player skill and strategy should trump time in an action combat mmo. One should not be better because they decided to not turn of their computer. Especially when the system offers players so many tools to be proactive and reactive outside of math formulas and rng.

You can argue time should make you better, but there is a reason you don't see posts on here complaining about the disparity between level 50 and 1.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

J2JMC wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

So the people with more CP than the next guy should stop playing so that the other guy with less CP can, hopefully, gain on him? That's total nonsense. Capping progression is bad game design in my eyes. They did that in WoW with the reputation in MoP. You could only get X amount of reputation each day because you got your reputation from daily quests. It was not received well by the player-base so they changed it later on in the expansion.

What ZOS could do is give everyone a base amount of CP once you hit level 50. Let's say 35 or 50 to start off with...

I don't want ESO turn into some wellfare game where you get stuff handed to you in your hands each month, or turn this into a glorified example of communism where everyone should be equal. It would me a mind numbing boring game if they decided to go that route.

It is nonsense. I wasn't writing that to say it was okay, I was simply using a more appropriate example for what he was saying.

Giving everyone 50 cp from jump would not be necessary if the system was implemented better. The system is flawed.

I don't agree with the recovery mechanic, however I also don't agree with what's supposed to be an illusion of endless progression causing a significant mathematical advantage. Especially when player skill and strategy should trump time in an action combat mmo. One should not be better because they decided to not turn of their computer. Especially when the system offers players so many tools to be proactive and reactive outside of math formulas and rng.

You can argue time should make you better, but there is a reason you don't see posts on here complaining about the disparity between level 50 and 1.

Giving 50 CP to level 50 characters would be completely fine. Why? Because CP was suppose to replace Veteran Ranks in the first place. Now that they have decided to extend VR to 16 they are even furthering the gap between new and old players. This has been the issue for over a year now since the game came out. ZOS are digging their own grave by continuing to delay the removal of VR, and it's only going to get harder for them to back out. The system is not flawed nor is it perfect. Does it need to be changed ? Probably. Are people overreacting? Most likely.

Tolmos · July 2015

As a new player, I kind of dread dealing with CP. As I sit here, leveling my way to 50, there are folks grinding out CP. As I finally hit 50 for the first time, those folks will still be grinding out CP. When I finally get to start grinding out CP, too, they will be leagues ahead and there will be no feasible method for me to catch up to them. That's unfortunate.

But, there's no fair way I can think of to correct that. It simply is how it is. By measure of when I started, I am doomed to be weaker. Not for any action of my own, but simply because of the timeframe in which it was possible for me to start the game.

C'est la vie. It's no different than EVE online, I suppose, except that in EVE the endless progression is capped in that you can only get so good at each thing, and those things don't really cross over (years of cruiser skills are worthless in a battleship, etc). In this game, ALL of the endless progression matters.

In the end, I don't really want them to do anything about how much CP can be gained, though, because it would only hurt me more than help me in the "catching up" department.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Giving 50 CP to level 50 characters would be completely fine. Why? Because CP was suppose to replace Veteran Ranks in the first place. Now that they have decided to extend VR to 16 they are even furthering the gap between new and old players. This has been the issue for over a year now since the game came out. ZOS are digging their own grave by continuing to delay the removal of VR, and it's only going to get harder for them to back out. The system is not flawed nor is it perfect. Does it need to be changed ? Probably. Are people overreacting? Most likely.

Agreed, some tweaks to the Champion system could greatly improve the experience for those who are new to the game, will take time off for an extended period, or simply hate grinding.

Despite the growing disparity in Champion points among players, overall it is a clever system that enhances enjoyment of the game and the sense of progression over time.

When you get a Champion point, it's fun to navigate the UI and choose where you want to allocate it. The changes are noticeable in game, and it provides a tangible feeling that you are progressing over time beyond the max level.

Rather than giving away CP without working for them, simply extending the enlightenment period so that it stacks indefinitely (or at least a few months) rather than 12 days would alleviate a lot of concerns.

Increasing the amount of enlightenment to 2CP per day instead of 1CP, for example, it would be relatively easy for anyone who has had a veteran character since March 3 to catch up to 252 CP (as of today).

Can't compare to someone who has been grinding 10 hours per day since 1.6, but it is a decent amount, on a par with most players in Cyrodiil.

Instead of free handout of champion points, extending enlightenment means you would have to work a bit to earn the points, but you would be able to remain relatively competitive simply playing the game normally without grinding.

There would still be a huge disparity for players who don't have any veteran characters yet, unless the Enlightenment pool were extended for these folks as well, to cover the same period for everyone since 1.6 dropped on March 3. Or, perhaps give everyone new 50-100 CP worth of enlightenment when their very first character unlocks the Champion System.
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Tolmos · July 2015

The only kinda sorta fair way I can think of to close the gap in CP would be to take the halfway point of the highest CP player and increase gains for all new players up to that point.... or something. Like a curve. If the highest player has 1,000 CP, then everyone under 500 would get some kind of bonus their gains until they reach 500.

J2JMC · July 2015

As

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Giving 50 CP to level 50 characters would be completely fine. Why? Because CP was suppose to replace Veteran Ranks in the first place. Now that they have decided to extend VR to 16 they are even furthering the gap between new and old players. This has been the issue for over a year now since the game came out. ZOS are digging their own grave by continuing to delay the removal of VR, and it's only going to get harder for them to back out. The system is not flawed nor is it perfect. Does it need to be changed ? Probably. Are people overreacting? Most likely.

As Tolmos has said, and I agree with him, from the perspective a new player, CP is MUCH more dreadful than veteran ranks. But, nevermind which discrepancy between players is larger, the answer imo being cp, the problem with cp is that devs aren't going to be able to balance around it well. People with cps are either going to be largely untouched or even significantly buffed with balance changes. Anything balance change that can hurs characters with high amounts of cp is going to destroy players with low cps. I would never imagine ZOS removing cp, but they need to lower the cap significantly or make the stats they give much smaller.

danno8 · July 2015

The very definition of a "catch up" or "recovery" mechanic is that lower level people have a way to make faster gains than higher level people, so they can at least be in the same ballpark after some work.

A simple diminishing return curve would suffice, but has somehow eluded ZoS. And so here we are trying to come up with all sorts of creative ways to lessen the power creep.

What the OP describes is nothing like a "recovery" mechanic, as others have pointed out.

OzJohnD · July 2015

is "catching up" so important ?

For need game PvP I can see where there is a desire for an "even playing field", for ePeening in world scores for Trials I can see where competitors want the capacity to "catch up" to their opponents but for the majority of casual gamers the concept is irrelevant.

I know it might sound confrontatory but simply I am curious why a game mechanic that has an open ended (uncapped) experience system (currently champion points but may well be something else later) should be programmed to make it easier to catch up on those who have huge hours to farm champion points

Balance is always an issue in evolving MMORPGs ... the only way to fix this is to have a single class, maxed out easily, gear maxed easily and the only differentiating feature between players is skill and latency.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

OzJohnD wrote: »

is "catching up" so important ?

For need game PvP I can see where there is a desire for an "even playing field", for ePeening in world scores for Trials I can see where competitors want the capacity to "catch up" to their opponents but for the majority of casual gamers the concept is irrelevant.

I know it might sound confrontatory but simply I am curious why a game mechanic that has an open ended (uncapped) experience system (currently champion points but may well be something else later) should be programmed to make it easier to catch up on those who have huge hours to farm champion points

Balance is always an issue in evolving MMORPGs ... the only way to fix this is to have a single class, maxed out easily, gear maxed easily and the only differentiating feature between players is skill and latency.

In my case, I'm only concerned about the PVP side.

I'd skip all the PVE content if I could, makes no difference to me personally if I fall far behind other players in PVE.

The_Sadist · July 2015

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

With enlig+scroll, and you don't need to enter Cyrodiil. Yep, no recovery mechanic...

In my case due to work I may take breaks from the game for months at a time. Previously I took a break for 8 months and it was easy to catch up by quickly earning a few VR levels and figuring out a new build, etc., and get to a point where I was at least somewhat competitive with most players in Cyrodiil. With the CP system, however, it's going to be challenging to do this if I take a break for a few months.

If enlightenment was extended to stack indefinitely or at least up to a few months instead of 12 days, it would alleviate a lot of these concerns.

Pretty much my thoughts, I like enlightenment in theory, but given it stacks for 12 days and it stops it feels somewhat eh. I know when I return and level up my alts I'll bee >100 CP whereas all the competitive players are over 300 at this point. I've been absent since 2.0 hit due to real life reasons and feel I've already fallen way behind. If they had implemented a system which stacks for months there would be some real incentive to come back, but as it stands it looks like I'll forever be 200-350 CP behind the most active players, which sort of sucks.

But that's what I get I suppose!

danno8 · July 2015

OzJohnD wrote: »

is "catching up" so important ?

For need game PvP I can see where there is a desire for an "even playing field", for ePeening in world scores for Trials I can see where competitors want the capacity to "catch up" to their opponents but for the majority of casual gamers the concept is irrelevant.

I know it might sound confrontatory but simply I am curious why a game mechanic that has an open ended (uncapped) experience system (currently champion points but may well be something else later) should be programmed to make it easier to catch up on those who have huge hours to farm champion points

Balance is always an issue in evolving MMORPGs ... the only way to fix this is to have a single class, maxed out easily, gear maxed easily and the only differentiating feature between players is skill and latency.

Catching up, or at least the possibility of being competitive, is very important to new people to any mmo. Unless we want people to take one look at the CP system a year from now and simply say "Wow, I can never get close to these people even if I grind day and night for months. Guess I'll just leave", then yes it is important to deliver some way for new blood to the game to get closer to being competitive.

With diminishing returns on CP XP the higher CP level you are, they will never catch up but they can be close. Or at least competitive.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

danno8 wrote: »

OzJohnD wrote: »

is "catching up" so important ?

For need game PvP I can see where there is a desire for an "even playing field", for ePeening in world scores for Trials I can see where competitors want the capacity to "catch up" to their opponents but for the majority of casual gamers the concept is irrelevant.

I know it might sound confrontatory but simply I am curious why a game mechanic that has an open ended (uncapped) experience system (currently champion points but may well be something else later) should be programmed to make it easier to catch up on those who have huge hours to farm champion points

Balance is always an issue in evolving MMORPGs ... the only way to fix this is to have a single class, maxed out easily, gear maxed easily and the only differentiating feature between players is skill and latency.

Catching up, or at least the possibility of being competitive, is very important to new people to any mmo. Unless we want people to take one look at the CP system a year from now and simply say "Wow, I can never get close to these people even if I grind day and night for months. Guess I'll just leave", then yes it is important to deliver some way for new blood to the game to get closer to being competitive.

With diminishing returns on CP XP the higher CP level you are, they will never catch up but they can be close. Or at least competitive.

If they increased the exp needed to level up when you get really high CP rank then yes, people would be able to catch up. I'd also like ZOS to extend the Enlightenment buff.