[Feedback / Suggestion (not a petition!)] Please reinstate Nights Silence + Dark Stalker stacking

Sunrock · September 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

so your one and only proof is that you think i can loot a barrel faster then some one who does not have sneak speeds?
ok lets look at this, 1st of all, the items that gave us sneak speeds was from 2 easy to get items that are available to ALL classes races and peoples.

1) the night silence set - available to all classes races and people-
2) vampirism passive in sneak speed -again, available to all classes and races and peoples-

anyone can do this, as you mentioned someone can loot a barrel quickly without being seen by a guard. so what? anyone can do it.
the cheating part comes in when the sorcerers use that bolt escape that is incredibly by far way faster then any speeds we ever had in eso and continue to have thier bolt escape yet we nightblades are somehow marked as cheating when i just showed proof that it is not for just nightblades it's for all peoples all races to have those speeds.

so here we are, once again where im asking you to show proof where the speed increase we had was in some way cheating and i still have not seen you provide any proof to what im asking.

It was not so mush the stacking of the speed it self, but the speed it stacked to that would have been too fast for the justice system game mechanics. If the stacking of all those things would have gave you only 90% to 99% speed I would have not complained at all.

Atarax · September 2014

Well, keep complaining, because night's silence and dark stalker both bring you to 100% movement speed again. Add in concealed weapon adds another 25% on top of that. Rapid manouver causes you to go even faster.

Out of curiosity, on what basis is 90% to 99% appropriate, but 160% is not? I would recommend you study double-loop thinking.

Regardless, your argument, now that you've had more than enough chance to voice it, and done so in a very hostile and insulting way, still looks like #5 (potential future dev plans we don't know the details of). As stated in the counterargument, and our responses, you have no information that the stacking would actually impact the justice system. We don't know how Justice system will work, so that argument is not only pre-mature, but highly speculative.

Also, I addressed your response where you called me an idiot before you even made it. I said you're implying that people in stealth that can move faster can avoid people faster, so that would help them. I reiterated that the important thing to consider is detect radius. You're failing to acknowledge the facts.

Given the way stealth mechanics work, IN ESO, if I see someone, even a player, running in my general direction, I can simply move a little and be out of detect radius (which gets down to about 2-3 meters from the front depending on what you're wearing), even at 60% speed. Guards also don't run magelight, so avoiding a patrolling guard is easy even at 60% speed (go see for yourself). Even if there was a narrow passage in some quest with patrolling guards (there isn't currently), NB have dark cloak, and everyone else has invis potions. Even if there's someone with magelight, I just need to move sooner and out of their path. It's easy.

Also, if someone is intelligent enough to stack abilities / passives / armor in such a way that it gives them an advantage over someone who doesn't for a specific type of game play (ex. doing damage, those wearing night's silence do less damage than someone who stacked a damage set instead, they cast less heals or spells than someone using Seducers, etc. etc.) that is exactly how the game is designed to function currently in every other play style.

Again, you're taking game-play from another game, that works very differently from ESO, and trying to apply things from there to here. You're saying they're nerfing an entire playstyle because it might possibly give some advantage in some future system that may never see the light of day. What kind of rationale is that? Things do not work in ESO like they do in Thief. The game here is designed to allow people to stack abilities and passives to be more effective in some ways while sacrificing ability to be effective in others. Being insulting won't change any of that.

You made an argument based entirely on speculation, and one that was already addressed before you even posted in the first place. Even if, hypothetically, justice system would work EXACTLY like Thief, which it won't, and even if the extra speed would offer significant enough benefit in Justice play that it broke the system (which is unlikely given that everyone had access to vampire and night's silence so we're already within 25% movement speed of each other regardless of class), the appropriate time to nerf the set would have been when the Justice system was released and it became an issue.

However, even in that entirely unlikely, highly speculative, and hypothetical situation, I would argue that, nerfing a set that anyone can get, just because some people who choose to engage in a given subset of play (justice system, PvE, PvP), choose not to use use a set and thereby put themselves at a marginal disadvantage, they are CHOOSING not to be on a level playing field with regards to movement speed. ZOS should nerf those players, not the suit. Nightblades are still 25% faster than everyone else when they slot concealed weapon.

Either way, players can still use rapid manouver to go at breakneck speed, we can still stack speed to move at sprint or faster in stealth, so this nerf, accomplished nothing in terms of the mechanics you're concerned with.

I believe ZOS is smarter than to nerf a set that had no impact to the majority of the game other than to reduce travel time, just because, someday, it might have some impact (which can be offset and countered easily) on a system that's not even out yet.

But if you want to argue that, then, as your argument goes, Seducers set will allow those wearing it to be able to cast A BILLION TIMES more spells than someone who's not wearing it. So they'll be better than those not wearing it in Justice system, so we should nerf it, and every other 5-peice set, because it gives an advantage.

Night's silence, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, dark stalker, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, concealed weapon, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, rapid manouvers, specifically, makes movement speed faster. Etc. etc. Night's silence is now the only set in the game that doesn't stack with other passives. If one set isn't going to stack, it's time we start making all the other sets not stack as well. By your (il)logic.

This is my last response to you, if you still don't see where your critical thinking needs work after all this, I can't help you.

Sunrock · September 2014

Atarax wrote: »

Well, keep complaining, because night's silence and dark stalker both bring you to 100% movement speed again. Add in concealed weapon adds another 25% on top of that. Rapid manouver causes you to go even faster.

Out of curiosity, on what basis is 90% to 99% appropriate, but 160% is not? I would recommend you study double-loop thinking.

Regardless, your argument, now that you've had more than enough chance to voice it, and done so in a very hostile and insulting way, still looks like #5 (potential future dev plans we don't know the details of). As stated in the counterargument, and our responses, you have no information that the stacking would actually impact the justice system. We don't know how Justice system will work, so that argument is not only pre-mature, but highly speculative.

Also, I addressed your response where you called me an idiot before you even made it. I said you're implying that people in stealth that can move faster can avoid people faster, so that would help them. I reiterated that the important thing to consider is detect radius. You're failing to acknowledge the facts.

Given the way stealth mechanics work, IN ESO, if I see someone, even a player, running in my general direction, I can simply move a little and be out of detect radius (which gets down to about 2-3 meters from the front depending on what you're wearing), even at 60% speed. Guards also don't run magelight, so avoiding a patrolling guard is easy even at 60% speed (go see for yourself). Even if there was a narrow passage in some quest with patrolling guards (there isn't currently), NB have dark cloak, and everyone else has invis potions. Even if there's someone with magelight, I just need to move sooner and out of their path. It's easy.

Also, if someone is intelligent enough to stack abilities / passives / armor in such a way that it gives them an advantage over someone who doesn't for a specific type of game play (ex. doing damage, those wearing night's silence do less damage than someone who stacked a damage set instead, they cast less heals or spells than someone using Seducers, etc. etc.) that is exactly how the game is designed to function currently in every other play style.

Again, you're taking game-play from another game, that works very differently from ESO, and trying to apply things from there to here. You're saying they're nerfing an entire playstyle because it might possibly give some advantage in some future system that may never see the light of day. What kind of rationale is that? Things do not work in ESO like they do in Thief. The game here is designed to allow people to stack abilities and passives to be more effective in some ways while sacrificing ability to be effective in others. Being insulting won't change any of that.

You made an argument based entirely on speculation, and one that was already addressed before you even posted in the first place. Even if, hypothetically, justice system would work EXACTLY like Thief, which it won't, and even if the extra speed would offer significant enough benefit in Justice play that it broke the system (which is unlikely given that everyone had access to vampire and night's silence so we're already within 25% movement speed of each other regardless of class), the appropriate time to nerf the set would have been when the Justice system was released and it became an issue.

However, even in that entirely unlikely, highly speculative, and hypothetical situation, I would argue that, nerfing a set that anyone can get, just because some people who choose to engage in a given subset of play (justice system, PvE, PvP), choose not to use use a set and thereby put themselves at a marginal disadvantage, they are CHOOSING not to be on a level playing field with regards to movement speed. ZOS should nerf those players, not the suit. Nightblades are still 25% faster than everyone else when they slot concealed weapon.

Either way, players can still use rapid manouver to go at breakneck speed, we can still stack speed to move at sprint or faster in stealth, so this nerf, accomplished nothing in terms of the mechanics you're concerned with.

I believe ZOS is smarter than to nerf a set that had no impact to the majority of the game other than to reduce travel time, just because, someday, it might have some impact (which can be offset and countered easily) on a system that's not even out yet.

But if you want to argue that, then, as your argument goes, Seducers set will allow those wearing it to be able to cast A BILLION TIMES more spells than someone who's not wearing it. So they'll be better than those not wearing it in Justice system, so we should nerf it, and every other 5-peice set, because it gives an advantage.

Night's silence, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, dark stalker, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, concealed weapon, specifically, makes stealth speed faster, rapid manouvers, specifically, makes movement speed faster. Etc. etc. Night's silence is now the only set in the game that doesn't stack with other passives. If one set isn't going to stack, it's time we start making all the other sets not stack as well. By your (il)logic.

This is my last response to you, if you still don't see where your critical thinking needs work after all this, I can't help you.

First of all I just used Thief as an example mainly because when it came out in 1998 it defined the stealth game genre. But we have earlier games too like Metal Gear and other games like Splinter Cell and Hitman that came after among others. But they are all more military/assassin and are more action oriented then Thief and would not be as good examples. I assume you all know this already but just in case you don't.

Now this thread was not about the justice systems game mechanics but stacking allot of different stealth moment speeds buff with each other. If they allow it to be as it was it would remove any fun out of any stealth game that can be invented as it would have been close to impossible to be caught by anyone ever. This should be obvious to anyone that have played any type of stealth action game. Or do you think that anyone would ever be able to catch you with "your hand in the jar" with super sprint stealth speed? Now what fun would that be?

Now as you brought up the justice system in regards of stealth speed. For the justice system should be fun to play it has to give us player a challenge or at least pretend it does. In other words it should be at least remotely plausible to get cough while trying to steal something without having to go AFK other wise way even bother to have a justice system to begin with? Now the speed that you can sneak in is direct relation to the difficulty level of any stealth operation or action taken by the player. But you all know and understand this already. Witch makes me believe allot of you just ignore this fact just because you want to gain more AP per hour with a stealth ambush build in Cyrodiil. Lets not pretend other wise. This is way I question the intelligent of some of you. As you do understand what this means for any thief game mechanics and you rather see every aspect of the justice system become 100% boring and totally pointless then give up your super human stealth speed.

And if you ask me they need to nerf the speed of max stealth speed to be max as fast as any NPC guard can move normally. Maybe with an exception to Vampires but only during the night in that case just for RP immersion reasons. If they don't I will not even be able to pretend to enjoy the justice system or any upcoming thief guild quests as the challenge of the game play would be easer then "face roll" content tourist mode.

dsalter · June 2015

This no longer stacking breaks my build.
i go away unwillingly for 8 months and now my sorc stealth build cannot initiate propperly in pvp.
why not just make it so that only 2 may stack? so that NB users cant get 3 stacked bonuses but non-NB users can get both effects?

as a DW sorc i have no initiation anymore.

Atarax · July 2015

dsalter wrote: »

This no longer stacking breaks my build.
i go away unwillingly for 8 months and now my sorc stealth build cannot initiate propperly in pvp.
why not just make it so that only 2 may stack? so that NB users cant get 3 stacked bonuses but non-NB users can get both effects?

as a DW sorc i have no initiation anymore.

Welcome back. Yep, this nerf still sucks. And, it turns out, the justice system is not like thief after all (which was the only argument that anyone came up with on the thread), so the nerf was unnecessary (wasn't a relevant argument in the first place anyway, because invis potions and cloak let you accomplish more to avoid detection than the speed did anyway).

The nerf removed a lot of fun from the game for a lot of people. Unfortunate, but I doubt devs are going to fix their mistake at this point.