Badarah wrote: »

I feel totally differently about guild mail. I will say, there is a guild that I belong to that I am a part of strictly for trading purposes... and I do not read their guild mail. I never donate to their raffle (their raffle is always really terrible?) or participate in anything aside from using their kiosk. No sense of community with them, at all.

However, with my other guilds there is a sense of community, and I do read those guild mails. This is probably because they aren't just asking for cash (events, ect) and because the raffles and other events are always changing. It's interesting. It's not the same thing day in, day out... [i]you might win this motif you don't need but probably never.

I agree, for the most part. I was on the fence about guild mails for several months, even helped a friend code one of the popular mailers. But in trading guilds it has become a daily assault, and again, ZOS increased the character limit for MOTD. Just in case folks have forgotten what MOTD stands for, it's "Message Of The Day." To my eye, this dramatic increase (and notification when it changes) is a signal that this is what we should be using, not mail. Can I ignore notifications with addons? Yes. And I do. Can I ignore mail spam with addons? Not to my knowledge. Guilds that don't abuse guild mailers could probably get along with using MOTD rather than mailers, so I see no reason for ZOS to implement a mail feature that duplicates the MOTD.

Badarah wrote: »

As for the reasons Deome left a trading guild...

The only reason I started up a new trading guild is I got sick of having to be in trading guilds that:

1) spam my inbox begging for raffle money

Agree to a point, like above. One guild I feel does this, the others don't. I guess depends on content and general guild vibe.

2) require minimum sales or raffle purchases

I think at a point, this is necessary. If you have a really full trading guild, and an expensive spot, you'd have to make sure that all members are active and participating. I personally don't have any minimums that aren't really easy to meet. If you can't meet them.... you're doing something wrong. I don't farm, or spend any time otherwise trying to find things to sell or otherwise make gold. I'm really casual. And I make minimums on accident. But if a player joins a trading guild... and doesn't actually trade... they just need to find a different guild. That's all.

Absolutely to each their own. My guild heavily advertises that we DON'T have these, though, and we have no problem recruiting players who are sick of these requirements just to sell their stuff through a kiosk. I could care less if other guilds require 1k, 10k, 100k, whatever, weekly sales--and I've even made it easier for GMs to keep tabs on these things by using my addons. Again, though, the problem was choice--it was not hard to find guilds requiring these things, they all think it's necessary, but it was hard for the casual player to find any trading guilds that did not have onerous sales/raffle-purchase requirements (would you like examples? I've got more than a few Gamer Moms and Gamer Dads who do not have the time or patience to worry about getting booted for not selling enough). At some point, and that point is different for everyone, it crosses the line from necessary to harassment, and again, I am having NO trouble finding folks who are sick of it. No, I'll never be going for the traders that run 1-2 mil per week. We're perfectly fine with being a tier-2 or tier-3 trading guild, I'll leave the cutthroat traders to the elitists.

Oh, and the players who join and don't sell? I track purchases in my addons too--there's plenty of folks who sell nothing and buy tons. I don't claim to know their reasoning, and I'm not going to lecture them about using kiosks--as far as I'm concerned, they're participating and generating taxes for the trader, so I'm happy.

Badarah wrote: »

3) harass members for how they price their goods

I like sales tips. The guild that I am part of just for trading.... I'll be honest I'm not really a fan of the general sportsmanship. The undercutting, and general attitude is not very savory. I keep them because I make good money. But I almost wish they would say something... like, HEY! Why don't you all quit being total jerks to each other?! You can't babysit, or police what members do. But I think expecting that they will be courteous, mature, and respectful of their GUILD MATES is important. And... some members might not be super aware of how pricing, or what items sell well. I've personally never been harassed- but I think anyone in charge of a trading guild should take some responsibility in making sure that members are as successful as they can be.

Seems like you're all over the board here. So, I am specifically referring to friends of mine who joined my guild because they were in a...shall I say "highly competitive" trade guild?...and were receiving messages telling them they had to list items far above what their pricing addon (mine, for the record) was telling them to. Not particular items, but all items.

When I was in the same guild, for months I would see the same pattern: someone would complain that they were being told to post at a particular price by another member, or a guild mail would go out hinting or stating that "undercutting" would get one kicked. Then there would be a loud backlash from members, and officers would say it never happened.
Give it a month, GOTO 10.

Also, the week I launched DataDaedra, I was flooded with complaints that my addon was "undercutting" everyone because people would sell for less than they were. In a year of play, all I can say about "undercutting" is that no one shares the same definition of the word, it doesn't "lower prices for everyone," and there are some people who just consistently harass anyone who lists for less than they list for. So I have a firm "no pricing restrictions" policy because trying to get people to agree on what "undercutting" or the "appropriate price" is always ends up an exercise in herding vipers. No one benefits, and no one leaves without a few bites.

Badarah wrote: »

4) coordinate with other guilds to lock particular guilds out of cities or kiosks. This last point is always difficult to prove because coordination happens outside the game or game forums, but it's intimidation and harassment nonetheless, and a lot of folks don't want to bother with it.


I've never experienced this, personally. I will say that I really am not a fan of how things go down ATM. For instance, last week we placed our bid on a particular stall (not the stall we REALLY wanted, the one next door) as a courtesy to an agreement between two other guilds. What happened? Both stalls were taken by two new guilds (with crap for sale). Leaving us, and one half of the guilds-in-agreement with nothing.

On one hand, it makes you think.... well.... should have just played hard ball, and gone for the one we wanted anyways. On the other, you want to be courteous to other guilds. They're struggling with the same things. It's frustrating, and it's sad that good guilds get the shaft. I'd rather see competition between guilds be their prices and quality of goods, rather than just trying to get ANY SPOT ANYWHERE at any cost. It makes it not fun, and you have to turn around and tell your guild you lost your spot and do the walk of shame.

Yes, it's a fine dance between courtesy and coordination. I won't name names, but I recently caught one guild coordinating with others on their guild forum to lock one of my guilds out of a city using a kiosk rotation system (so one guild would bid prohibitively high while the others didn't, in the hope that any "outside" guilds would bid on the trader with the outrageous bid and lose). I felt personally attacked because not only were the folks in question trying to keep one of my guilds from getting ANY trader in the city, but they were blaming me as the reason the guild would even have the funds to compete in that city. It's been going on like that forever, and that kind of collusion defeats the whole purpose of a bidding system; when one guild uses their weight to keep not only themselves, but also their friends' guilds, ensconced in an area, it's not competitive, it's a monopoly. And that's what enables sellers to charge higher prices, which hurts the players who are just shopping.

Again, I can only report so much because it usually doesn't occur in-game where ZOS can do something about it.

I didn't get that tone from it, so no worries. And I just spoke to another old friend who joined my guild, said they were harassed by the GM of an...erm, prominent?...trading guild. Happens all the time.

Certain people like to villainize guilds for communicating with each other and working together. If all guilds just bid randomly places in the current system with no communication and coordination then all guilds would end up randomly without a trader more than half the time. Pure statistics. And yet that seems to be what some players want because they protest and rail and complain whenever guilds realize that they're stronger if they both communicate with each other and coordinate together. No guild EVER wants to "keep another guild out/down". EVERY guild wants to maintain or gain a trader spot. Yet the accusations fly that guilds are keeping other guilds down when they are simply trying to protect themselves from losing a trader. I simply don't understand how seemingly intelligent people can continue to profess such poorly thought out logic.

It should also be remembered that some people highly exaggerate situations. I have sent mails reminding players that "average prices" can be skewed because if players sell low they bring down the average and players who post high rarely make successful sales to bring the average back up. While I believe that this was the mail being referred to by the player above, it was neither a set-rule/command. Nor was it suggesting anyone list "far above average" In chat I've reminded people that 10% above average is often a good price point, and that stackable items like tempers can be listed for 20% or more above average when sold in small stacks while players are listing large stacks with bulk discounts, dropping the average prices. All of this info is designed to help members be better traders, and to help large numbers of sellers work together better. The same player also misinterpreted a contest where prizes were randomly awarded to players for having listings in the store and the contest rules stated that items listed at more than 5 times average price would not be eligible for the free prizes. It is amusing that helpful tips and suggestions can be so wildly twisted.

All of this serves to further demonstrate why it's so important that the bidding system currently in place get an overhaul. The direct competition, the system's allowance for spying and other sneaky actions, the ability of a guild to troll another by outbidding them not all of the time but on a regular interval, all of this only increases the stress level of players and GMs.

And yet again we have the bidding and then a maintenance that we have no idea how long it will be before we can get open stalls.

ElfFromSpace wrote: »

Which of these improvements would you rate as the #1 highest priority?

Why stop there?
A few things that could be included in your list please.

Ability to have 10 guilds instead of 5.
Emails relating to sales stating the guild store item was sold at.
List of Guilds you left so you can rejoin should a new guild prove less desirable.
Guild requests show how many members they have and when created.
Ability to rank Guilds list based on transactions performed with that guild.
Tally of how many purchased and sold items displayed next to each guild.

giinoz2011rwb17_ESO wrote: »

A fairer way would be to offer all guilds having 400+ members (number of members could be any number of members.) a trader with no BS bidding.

You know, I don't think I've ever heard anyone suggest that. It's novel! I mean, what if guilds with a certain minimum would always have a guild trader (or maybe the top X guilds with that minimum, where X is the number of kiosks in Tamriel and Coldharbour), and ZOS magic assigned a random kiosk for each guild's trader every week?

It's an idea worth considering.

I really like the idea of having a guaranteed trading kiosk for guilds that have a certain amount of members (and those members are active). Like I'd kind of mentioned previously, maybe create some sort of system that still allows smaller, new guilds to have guild traders and move on up to the more "in demand" areas. Such as, if you're a baby-new guild with 50 members you are in the random lottery (random as in, where you end up) for the kiosks that are off wayshrines in BFE, set price point. And the established, active guilds are in the random lottery, set price point, for the more in demand areas. That way, everyone that wants a trader can have one, and the competition between guilds can be a little less fierce. I mean, when people are busting out excel spreadsheets and traveling around the universe nit-picking wares for sale in preparation for a bid... it makes your brain want to explode a little bit.

This would also eliminate the guild member spy situations... dun dun dun. Guilds should just be able to do their thing and have fun- not have to worry about what members see, or what certain intentions are, or if we're going to be able to get a stall. Certainly not have to worry about other guilds and what they're doing- it's a game... it's for fun... why are we sucking the fun out of it.

And I totally agree with Elf that the MOTD is a total jerk to edit. Why can't I copy and paste? Why can't I click in it? Why must I scroll through the whole damn thing every time? And, god forbid I make a mistake... then yeah you spam members with notifications and suddenly get emails and whispers... "WHAT IS THE NEW NOTIFICTION I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!?" .........when all you did was fix a spelling error. Womp woooomp.

Ugh. So frustrated with the guild trader system. We lost our bid week before last, and scrambled to find a last second spot. Turns out, it did OK, despite being a slightly unpopular area. In the interest of staying in a not-too-expensive spot that *kind of* pays the bills, I bid what I thought was a little overzealous. AND LOST. How did it go from, literally no one wants that kiosk... to losing a high bid.

Now I'm in the freakin' outlaws refuge. My guild is in the gutter >.<

And yes, bank limits would be awesome. We recently had a new player clear out a large portion of the bank because he was used to WoW's bank system. He put a lot of it back... but still... lol

Here we are again, one guild without a trader and one of my officers who I have talked into helping is now for the first time experiencing the wait from hell knowing we need a trader and she has to sit by the computer for hours waiting for a maintenance that might be any unknown length. ;(

I would like to know if there's any reason the maintenance and bid times can't be moved to have even 15 minutes for us to get our stuff done. We know it's possible because we had an hour to do it when the time change failed to apply to bid times.

I say in-game guild forums, to arrange events like Trials/DSA/Cyrodil, and also good for trading and socializing, making the community stronger. What else you need than that.

love seeing how dedicated you guys are for us. thanks!!!!! ZOS change this!!!

OH MAN the struggle. We made a bid we were a bit nervous about this week... and I'll admit I forgot my 4:45am alarm. (Yes people, 4:45am alarm... for a video game... for a virtual store. Officers love you). SO I woke up and periodically checked the update status.

Waiting. Waiting. Waiting.

To add to this, I'm still locked out of my functions for "spam" (guild mail) since Thursday with a massive lack of response from the ESO support. I know you all are busy with the console launch... but show me some love. Four days without being able to access the guild bank, guild store, whisper, mail, trade.... less than ideal. So obviously I can't bid.

I conveniently have a husband who CAN bid on my behalf, so I'm starring over my should while at work waiting for his game to update (sliding across the room via wheelie chair) so I can log in his game and check my trader situation.

THE ANXIETY. IT'S REAL.

Practically hung up on a client when the update finished.

We won the bid (PRAISE JEEBUS) and I didn't have to run around the universe; I did see that you all were without-stall and looked around a bit. I couldn't actually talk to anyone but I figured if I found something I could yell it out in guild chat, lol. Glad you found something.

But, yeah. I would accept a 4:30am trader bid to avoid the update wait. That is just so unfair- you have no idea when it's going to be live... and then no idea how long your personal computer will take to download all the new-ness. So you sit there terrified that someone with a nicer PC and better internet connection is snatching up all of the last-minute stalls and you're left in the dust.

But let's just talk about guild mail for a second, since that is hot on my mind. Whenever I've been blocked for spam (which has happened a few times now, usually which a MUCH faster repair rate, lol) I always tell the support person what I did. "I sent out guild mail. I mailed 400+ people at once, or at least attempted to."

I've asked if it was OK, or if there was a recommended solution. Their solution was to maybe split up the mail duties to avoid one person taking on ALL the mail numbers. So this says to me... you're totally fine with what I'm doing.

If you're OK with it.... why don't you A: Add the function into the game, or B: ....stop blocking me.

<end rant>

What an MAX bid option, where it auto bids to max and mails u if out bidded?

Badarah wrote: »

A max bid option would be AWESOME. Hell, even visible bids. That way we could at least see what someone is wanting to pay for a kiosk, and can make the decision for our guild if it's too expensive or right up our ally. It's always a risk that you're bidding on a stall that someone is going to put an outrageous bid on. If they want to keep the bidding system... at least let us see! Like eBay. Maybe a max number of bids/stalls to bid on. Something to make it just a little bit less stressful.

We discussed this option but most GMs strongly opposed the visibile bids because then you would get the same exact thing you get on Ebay... last minute snipers. I put in my bid for 800k... someone waits til 20 seconds before bids close and bids 801K. Even with max bids it would likely get ugly monday mornings and be impossible for anyone who can't be on for bid close.

The max bids is also less likely. In most cases only 1 guild bids on a stall. If we put in bids of 1K with a max of 2 mil we would probably get the stall for 1K almost every week, eliminating the gold sink possibilities.

This is why, after much discussion, the idea we thought seemed most robust is the City Bidding. You bid not on a stall but on a city. The top 5-7 guilds with the highest bids get into the city. It would reduce the guesswork because it would prevent a guild from being outbid at 800K while the stall right next door gets won for 200K. As long as your bid is within the middle of the pack for the city you're safe. Someone who tried bidding low for the city would still go without, but it would be a lot more predictable.

AzraelAcid wrote: »

ElfFromSpace wrote: »

AzraelAcid wrote: »

Zos... The Struggle is Real.

This maintenance is going on stupidly long. If you need to get some sleep you should go. I thought it would be a shorter one since the console one was scheduled for 10:30. You can't stay up all day long again with no sleep ;(

I won't sweetheart. I'll stay for as long as I can though. 4 Hours and counting ....Hopefully this ends soon, and changes in the future.

Okay so the server came up finally at 11:11 PDT, after a 6 hour downtime.
Took me a half hour to patch. I was on Teamspeak with another officer who made it in game before me. I had her running around to check on traders for hire, since we found that we lost the bid on the guild were bidding for. So, she wasn't a member of this guild, but since she made it in game first, I had her running from zone to zone, and kiosk to kiosk, while Elf was at work. Even though Elf was at work, and couldn't speak or listen on TS, she was typing madly to us while handling the info I was feeding to her through TS chat. Unfortunately I never did make it in game in time, but the other officer finally found a hire-able trader, and stood there watching for 15 minutes until Elf could get over there to hire the trader, while at work.
The whole process took 7 hours total.

Unreal Situation. ZoS, we love this game with a passion, and thank you for listening to our feedback. PLEASE IMPLEMENT THE BIDDING TIME FEATURE. We need it!