So let's get a cat out of the bag - Dual Wield Mace/Sharpened

Samadhi · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hypocrisy wrote: »

Already wrote a bug report about dw maces with sharpened which was probably ignored. Also according to the addon, got the armor penetration up to 75k if people thought 33k was bad. Btw the extra 200 focus rating that you get from sharpened is so nice for magicka users with maxed spell resistance ppl running around ..

I think its being misunderstood. It says you ignore 20% of your targets armor. I think the number that everyone is looking at is SIMILAR to the crit rating number. There is a % attached to that number. So you are seeing 75k but its really just 50% Since they give diminishing returns 33k armor pen will ignore 45% armor and 70k only ignores 50%. None of the tooltips say they ignore 40k of the targets armor. Other skills ignore armor entirely. These skills everyone is quoting ignore a % of the targets armor not the armor itself.

Playing around with maces on alts in PvE once revealed to me that it was causing my character to do more damage to enemies in heavy armour with shields than against mage characters in cloth.

Would take controlled testing with multiple people in Cyrodiil to examine if it is similar in PvP values.

halfbadger · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

The only thing that hits my medium armor for over 10k is wrecking blow, snipe, frags, dragon leap, ambush, radiant. If this dual wielding maces was so broken then there would be a lot more stam abilities on that list. I never seen dual wield abilities do more then 6k damage. Nothing hits my heavy armor more then 6k. This theory needs a lot more evidence and they need to start hitting me a lot harder for this to validate.

So the only things hitting you for over 10k are ultimates, channels, stealth attacks and attacks with cast times.
The closest thing DW has to a nuke is hidden blade which has no cast time, is a ranged attack for a melee playstyle and stops you from accessing a gap closer and rally on main bar.

glavius · June 2015

Just tested on pts which runs 2.08.
1 5% sharpened mace is enough to ignore 27k armor.
Also, Harvens excended stats is incorrect. For example the spell penetration passive in champ line, gives very little penetration, even first point (8 point dmg increase in my test)

Also, no way in hell you ignore all resists with nirn weapon+apprentice.

Rylana · June 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Soulac wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

I may be alone here but I think even the 17k armor penetration is too high.

But since they nerf nirn the following is fine?
Nirn/Sharpened on weapons
5pc light Armor
Major Spell resi debuff
Apprentice
the first pt in champion-system in th passives which is buggy and grants a huge amount of penetration

Keep in mind that the major debuff applies before the nirn calculation.

This amount of penetration is too high for both.
What is the use of heavy armor if you just ignore everything anyway.
If I fight nightblades right now I have like 5k spellresistence left and I'm using some parts of nirn to survive the undodgeable crap.

Safe to say you tested none of this because you'd know it isn't true if you had .
Sharpened is the same for spell and phys pen.
5pc light comes nowhere near as high a pen amount as maces.

Major armor debuffs are easier to access and more common, while being attached to skills that do more than a resist/armor debuff. Many aren't even tied to weapons (elemental debuff requires a destro staff and does just a resist change, no damage or other addons except some magicka restoration).
Apprentice stone is outweighed by phys pen availability and nirn honed.
First champ PT functions as described. It doesn't add some magical outlandish amount of pen. Go test it before parroting others who did not test it either. The phys and spell pen champ passives are ignores as described in the tooltips.
show previous quotes

Rylana wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Things I learned while reading this thread:
Zenimax should not allow you to enter the same AvA Server with Characters of different Fractions on the same day.

Why the hell not? These dudes should be able to win one fight, or just not talk trash.

It's not about that situation actually. What if they had not trash talked? Lets say you are grinding in said cave. I'm from your fraction and I also want to grind there. So I relog on my other fraction character, kill you, relogg to my main and start grinding. Whenever you come back, I relog and kill you again. With that, I would have an issue.

Also, being able to simply let one person of a DC raidgroup relog and be able to read the AD zone chat, maybe joining one AD raidgroup and being able to tell the DC raids what they are planing to do...I just dont like the abusive possibilities.

Hypothetical situations do not apply to your original statement. Strawman fallacy.

to Germantrocity - LOL

to the AD that posted in this thread, silky whatever, keep talking your smack and next time German shows up hes gonna have Lyzara with him. The players named thus far in this thread are so below even my skill level that just me showing up would probably wipe your whole group, now imagine both of us.

Edit to add - I could totally get down with this idea of Cracked Wood mercenary for hire (or just for lolz). Hmm...

Gonna take a guess Rylana didn't test anything either by this thread, given that I haven't heard anyone claim sharpened was bugged still for physical only, in any special fashion, and no proof or testing is shown to back the assertion made here. Given the posts I see like the above, and in this thread, I get the feeling he or she thinks they are above needing to actually fact check their claims before making balance discussion or supposed major bug threads, regardless of if it turns out to be the case.

Um the post you quoted was a trash talk regarding cracked wood cave shenanigans and had nothing to do with testing anything, how exactly you come to the conclusion/assumption that me trash talking an AD player somehow equates to not having tested anything is a stretch and then some, just saying.

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

glavius wrote: »

Just tested on pts which runs 2.08.
1 5% sharpened mace is enough to ignore 27k armor.
Also, Harvens excended stats is incorrect. For example the spell penetration passive in champ line, gives very little penetration, even first point (8 point dmg increase in my test)

Also, no way in hell you ignore all resists with nirn weapon+apprentice.

If Zeni programmed it to be flat numbers then they need to fix it asap. More then likely the players are just confused because what was once basic math has now become rocket science. All the tooltips say % of targets armor. And some say -x armor reduction. The armor reduction abilities have a flat number and are the same against all opponents. The % values change against each opponent since they all have different armor values. So dual wielding sharpened maces should only give you the extra % from the offhand mace which would be slightly higher then a regular 2h sharpened maul.

GaldorP · June 2015

Majax wrote: »

Without a confirmation from ZOS i can't believe ppl who are claiming that penetration bypass all armor.

On regular VR 10 monsters there is a point where more armor penetration doesn't increase damage anymore. Before you reach that point, every bit of armor penetration makes a difference (you deal more damage with the same attack; I tested it with the caltrops dot and light attacks). After that point, you can get 10% more armor penetration or reduce enemy armor with debuffs and it makes no difference anymore.

Using 1 purple sharpened mace and a second mace with any trait lets you reach that point (against regular VR 10 monsters) if you have the dual wield passive.

I don't know if it works the same way in PvP.

Kloud · June 2015

As I said no damage diffrence between 8k and 18k armor pen... via harvens extended stats no dps Inc at all so it's not correct or toon is bugged

timidobserver · June 2015

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

eventide03b14a_ESO · June 2015

Rylana wrote: »

Sorry to spoil your fun boys and girls, but after making a thread about balance for nirn and resistances, we gotta talk about this one.

As some of you (dubiously) know, dual wield hammers (maces) is currently bugged similarly to the old sharpened bug for spell pen, only this time it is armor pen.

To give you an idea of what I am talking about, using Harvens Extended Stats addon, I discovered something rather hilarious.

My 2 handed sharpened Mace, gives me 17000 armor penetration. Notbad.jpg, seems about right

Then I swap to my dual wield bar, with 2 sharpened hammers equipped... guess what the value jumps to? Youd figure 20 percent for the twin blade and blunt, 14 for sharpened for say up to 35 percentish more right? Maybe 22k armor pen?

nope, with dual wield it jumps to 33,303 armor penetration. Thats right, anyone without 33k in physical resistances is completely naked to my dual wield setup.

What I believe is happening is actually pretty simple - the armor pen is being counted from two weapons (one in each hand) instead of half a weapon for each hand, as does every other modifier/trait when it relates to combat modifiers. Think crit chance (ruby) on a bow vs on dual daggers here for an idea of what i mean, 14 vs 7 on each for a total of 14.

Somewhere in the code, the game is counting each hammer as a 2-handed weapon in the calculations for armor penetration.

Needs fixed, ZOS

Also, sorry to yall, but this one has been abused for some time.

Edit to add: No, it is not a visual bug, I actually tested it in game vs a friend. Had him take all his armor off. Got a baseline, he then put all his heavy armor back on for an AR of about 25k. My damage numbers stayed exactly the same. (no blocking or buffs used on either side)

It's the same reason I use two swords for spell damage. LMAO.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

topic title demands gifs.

anyways it does sound like a bug.

WRX · June 2015

...really needed this on the forums huh?

bosmern_ESO · June 2015

Lets hope we can get ZoS's attention on this before the next big patch comes out so it wont be in the game much longer.

Prabooo · June 2015

lol I never watch the numbers, but no wonder! I use dual wield with maces by default ...

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

FMonk · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

You're making the mistake of assuming that what the tooltips say is how it actually works. This is ZOS we're talking about, that's almost never true.

Alcast · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

IF the stuff worked how it is supposed to then YES, but it aint not like dat believe me

Rylana · June 2015

So ive gotten some rather nasty tells in game over this thread, and it seems like people dont like that i posted this.

Well, lets just put it like this. Since day 1 every major broken mechanic has been exploited ad nauseum until it was revealed to the general public and fixed.

This is just another one of those. Love it or hate it, I mean to see it fixed. If you take that personally, well, then youre thinking a bit too far into it I reckon. (and probably deserve the nerf considering you make no bones about wanting to use broken things to win, right? "muh seekrit haxorz")

At the end of the day, I have used this just as much as anyone else. No smug holier than thou here.

When this is fixed, I am sure we will meet again on the next thread regarding broken stuff. its become a thing, and I make no apologies for it.

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

FMonk wrote: »

show previous quotes

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

You're making the mistake of assuming that what the tooltips say is how it actually works. This is ZOS we're talking about, that's almost never true.

You are assuming that a third party addon is somehow pulling numbers out of the combat mechanics of this game that don't add up. The big question is do these numbers come from the actual game client or they calculated by the addon according to your gear and skill settings?

sadownik · June 2015

Rylana wrote: »

So ive gotten some rather nasty tells in game over this thread, and it seems like people dont like that i posted this.

Well, lets just put it like this. Since day 1 every major broken mechanic has been exploited ad nauseum until it was revealed to the general public and fixed.

This is just another one of those. Love it or hate it, I mean to see it fixed. If you take that personally, well, then youre thinking a bit too far into it I reckon. (and probably deserve the nerf considering you make no bones about wanting to use broken things to win, right? "muh seekrit haxorz")

At the end of the day, I have used this just as much as anyone else. No smug holier than thou here.

When this is fixed, I am sure we will meet again on the next thread regarding broken stuff. its become a thing, and I make no apologies for it.

You shouldnt apologize or feel in anyway ashamed - thats true. In fact i admire what you are doing and i do think after so many months it is the right way to go. Lets see what zos will do now.

timidobserver · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

FMonk wrote: »

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

You're making the mistake of assuming that what the tooltips say is how it actually works. This is ZOS we're talking about, that's almost never true.

You are assuming that a third party addon is somehow pulling numbers out of the combat mechanics of this game that don't add up. The big question is do these numbers come from the actual game client or they calculated by the addon according to your gear and skill settings?

If you go and look at the code of that addon, it does no math at all. The API hands that number directly the addon without any math or figuring on the part of the addon. It simply pulls the Focus Rating from the API and puts it on your character sheet. Omni Stats and a few other addons will give you the same number. If there is anything wrong with Focus Rating, it is on ZOS not the addons.

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

show previous quotes

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

You're making the mistake of assuming that what the tooltips say is how it actually works. This is ZOS we're talking about, that's almost never true.

You are assuming that a third party addon is somehow pulling numbers out of the combat mechanics of this game that don't add up. The big question is do these numbers come from the actual game client or they calculated by the addon according to your gear and skill settings?

If you go and look at the code of that addon, it does no math at all. The API hands that number directly the addon without any math or figuring on the part of the addon. It simply pulls the Focus Rating from the API and puts it on your character sheet. Omni Stats and a few other addons will give you the same number. If there is anything wrong with Focus Rating, it is on ZOS not the addons.

If this is true then it is definitely bugged. The focus rating might not mean exactly what the addons are displaying. For example before 1.6 the crit rating was displayed with numbers and not %. So your crit rating could go up by 500 and it was only a 10% increase. And your Focus rating is 40k but that is really just 40% and not an actual 40k subtracted from the enemies armor. But yea using 2 maces should result in the same focus rating as a 2h maul.

eliisra · June 2015

Kloud wrote: »

As I said no damage diffrence between 8k and 18k armor pen... via harvens extended stats no dps Inc at all so it's not correct or toon is bugged

It also depends on what you're testing it on. Basic landscape VR mobs aren't rocking that much physical resistance. After a certain amount the spell/armor pen you have becomes irrelevant, because you're already penetrating the little amount of armor they have or doing max dmg.

But than again, maybe you tested it on someone in PvP with high physical resistance. I dont know.

TheBucket · June 2015

There was a thread about thisbalready. Made about 4 months ago

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

TheBucket wrote: »

There was a thread about thisbalready. Made about 4 months ago

Untill its fixed it needs to be carried forward every month or so.

Waylander · June 2015

Good post. I thought it was common knowledge but if you are getting some hate in game then I am glad the proverbial cat has been let out of the bag.

I saw most good stam dd running 2h mace and 1h mace + sword or 2x 1h mace anyway. I think there is almost universal agreement that TTK is too low, so I am not sure why people would care that this may drop their TTK. Meta changes, roll with the punches.

It would be nice if a couple of kind souls (with time on their hands and a passion for helping the community) could test armor penetration and also the various major fracture skills to see if they actually work as intended. This will save a lot of time for Zos so they can replicate and amend as necessary.

kevlarto_ESO · June 2015

Rylana wrote: »

So ive gotten some rather nasty tells in game over this thread, and it seems like people dont like that i posted this.

Well, lets just put it like this. Since day 1 every major broken mechanic has been exploited ad nauseum until it was revealed to the general public and fixed.

This is just another one of those. Love it or hate it, I mean to see it fixed. If you take that personally, well, then youre thinking a bit too far into it I reckon. (and probably deserve the nerf considering you make no bones about wanting to use broken things to win, right? "muh seekrit haxorz")

At the end of the day, I have used this just as much as anyone else. No smug holier than thou here.

When this is fixed, I am sure we will meet again on the next thread regarding broken stuff. its become a thing, and I make no apologies for it.

You owe no one any kind of apology, the people sending you hate tells, just hate the fact that their "secret" is out in the open, now they lose that edge. There is so many broken things in ESO that swing he game balance one way or another it is crazy, and they need to be fixed.

The_Saint · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

timidobserver wrote: »

They should just Microsoft fix it by adding a armor/spell penetration cap. It doesn't actually fix the various issues, but it does make it so that the balance of the game isn't completely broken every time spell/armor pen gets broken. I think 60-70% is a good cap.

I don't think its even possible to reach 70% right now. The armor pen for dual wield maces and 2h maces are suppose to be the same which will give you 34% armor pen. Combine that with 100 champ points you get about 55% armor pen. You would probably need 200-300 champ points in armor pen alone to get 70%.

I think they just have a % * % instead of % + % with sharpened trait and the mace passiv something like this.

And the 70% penetration is real atm and without all that cp, just sharpened mace and passiv

But this makes most of the pve stamina player competitive to mage dks and thats good

Sacadon · June 2015

glavius wrote: »

Just tested on pts which runs 2.08.
1 5% sharpened mace is enough to ignore 27k armor.
Also, Harvens excended stats is incorrect. For example the spell penetration passive in champ line, gives very little penetration, even first point (8 point dmg increase in my test)

Also, no way in hell you ignore all resists with nirn weapon+apprentice.

both spell and armor pen in CS are underwhelming

Eglath · June 2015

Let's face the truth, this game has many hidden and overcomplicated calculations, and tooltips that don't reflect reality.

Another thing is that penetration values are simply way too high, and it might be the real culprit of very low TTK. When most of cyro population is almost naked to 90% of player base with 15k+ penetration. Even someone with full heavy has only couple thousand resistance left after pen is applied. Not to mention LA users
What ZENI needs to do is lower or cap penetration significantly.

Armitas · June 2015

Rylana wrote: »

So ive gotten some rather nasty tells in game over this thread, and it seems like people dont like that i posted this.

Well, lets just put it like this. Since day 1 every major broken mechanic has been exploited ad nauseum until it was revealed to the general public and fixed.

I think you made the right choice.

As Seinfeld would say..."what is the deaaal with penetration and armor in this game". I feel like we should have a working game core by now, not 3 months later, but like a year ago.