Firellight wrote: »

Even incrementally raising a cap has the same gap problem. Once the cap reaches 3600 points, what will you do with a new or returning player? It would be worse, because now there would be even more people with top CP. By then, the game would be almost exclusively for long term players. New players would not have a chance.

There are two possibilities:
1) closed, hard level cap
2) a system where you get small, incremental increases to your character to reward your time in the game

WoW uses #1. You hit level cap then you begin running dungeons, then vet dungeons, then raids to get better soul-bound gear. That is the ONLY thing to do when you hit level cap. Period. That's it. And if you don't like running raid after raid, hoping your ideal, best-in-slot gear drops (oh and there is a time gate here. You only get loot ONCE A WEEK). You sit around in town, bored out of your mind.

I love Champion Points. I do not grind. I don't understand the grinding concept (I know why they do it, but it's not my cup of tea). The usual reply is that they've leveled and done all of Silver and Gold quests, so they grind. Grind. Grind.

I feel the current end cap for Champion Points (3600?) was set so high so that people would feel it was almost open ended. You'd have to be a mindless drone to tiredlessly grind hour after hour, just to get CPs. They weren't DESIGNED to be rushed into. They're more like, "we see that you've gotten the equivalent of a fair bit of XP, so have a very small increase to a passive ability". That's it. More like a "Oh! That was nice!" then off ya go on your merry way again.

Why should people that HATE actually enjoy playing the game (i.e. the Grinders) ruin the Champion Point system for those that like the game?

And I'm sorry to the new comers to the game. I've been waiting for ESO for bloody years. I consider having amassed a fair bit of CPs more of a nod to my continued patronage of the game. What do you want them to do? Once a month erase everyone's XP back to zero so we have to start over so the 'new people' will feel better?

And in my opinion, the ONLY way a new player with fewer CPs will hate and be jealous of a more seasoned player with a lot of CPs is in PvP. Am I right? If I'm in a dungeon and a damage dealer is absolutely smashing the mobs and boss, I'm glad! "Right, Joe, go do your 20k DPS on the boss and we'll sort out the mobs". Or Trials. Trial runners would benefit from it as well. Only when a player goes against another player do the massive passives come into conflict.

Just 'fix' PvP.
I mean, good luck. WoW has been trying to balance PvP for a decade. And no matter what you do, someone isn't happy.

Since levels are equalised in PvP (i.e. a level 10 person can go into a zone with a VR14 player), make PvP phased based on Champion Points. Round it to, say, the nearest 50. People with <100 CPs are phased together. People with 100-149 are phased together. So forth and so on. Introduce this and there goes a lot of lag from Cyrodiil. Ta Da. (bows) You're welcome.
I don't PvP but from what I've seen in many MMOs, they are a bunch of epeeners that love organising a gank fest. THAT'S who is grinding CPs. Jump the 'noobs' and 'casuals' who just want to quest to get some APs and skill line increases so they can get some cool skills (Caltrops come to mind).

(climbs off soap box)

well we will not wait for long to see the exodus.
i think the comunity here try to make some input to get the best for the game and his longevity, but reading around i see no effort to involve new customer in a balanced game. play eso, besides all the problem was a nice experience, but anyway there are so many upcoming games that you must understand what we are talking about here, before is too late.
at the moment, i 'm not going to dress any big boy pants, becouse i'm just waiting november the 10 (it is years that i'm waiting for this, if you know wat i'm talking about).
then i will play that game, and after will be the time of tesVI. i can't see much me in eso by that time.
but we never know.

Once again, it's people abusing a system, using it in a way it wasn't intended to be used.
So...the rest of us suffer if they change this.

Thinking back to "Have Group Will Travel" in WoW - it got removed from the game because a relatively few number of people abused it. Teleporting entire guilds into raids and battlegrounds.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Can you give a source for this chart or am I just supposed to trust it?

http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/
....All the data you need is here.
Thanks to a few of our very own clever and honoured members

You mean that you think they think best descision is going P2W. if so they are really really stupid . Every damn P2W game was popular 4 year ago and when playuer realized what it was they all died .

ADarklore wrote: »

ANY MMO that has been for any length of time has disparity between veteran players and new players, new players shouldn't expect to be on par with them until they have put in the equal amount of time. Not sure where this sense of, "I'm a new player therefore I'm entitled to be equal to someone who has played much longer" comes from. Put in several months of effort and it shall be rewarded, but expecting to be equal to a veteran player within a couple of weeks has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with that player's attitude.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this. I'm still on level 45 and would never expect to be on par with a VR player that have spent countless hours investing in their character. It wouldn't be fair to those veteran players if I could just roll in in my new character and be on equal terms after a very short time investment.

fallensbane_ESO wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

First I agree CPs were/are a stupid, stupid, bad idea. However, it's what gives the hardcores reason for playing the game with less skill.

Also, Zeni can't get rid of CPs unless they're willing to eat crow. And they aren't.

CP's were not a bad idea, just poorly implemented. There should have been a wall on them and they should have incrementally increased that wall as time went on, like standard level raising. Like everyone can have 100 at the start and later they bump it up another 20 and so on.

you hit the nail on the head. they are trying to find a solution for alternate advancement. CP in theory is good actually. VR system is horrible. CP system needs an over haul it needs and actual cap around 60 to 100. make it worth while to invest in one tree. the whole system is half baked . the other half of this is itemization so poorly implemented to appease the disposable population its ruined the game for those that intended to play the game for the long haul.

Aiden_Dark wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

New players do not have to grind for a year. Like other people have told you gear + skill > 3600 CP. Again too you say people who do not play your way are not "actually playing the game". There are various playstyles. I for one love to just sit and mindlessly grind mobs sometimes. I guess I am not "playing the game" even tho I have done every quest at least twice.

So I know you are oh so worried about the casuals but dont worry. They will be fine.

the gear + skill " 3600 CP argument is garbage. You can say the same for the other guy with 3600 CP.

Also CP stats are significant that if you have equal gear to somebody you can still beat them if they are more skilled than you.

It's also not a surprise you grind and yet hold this stance. Do you really believe it is fair for grinders who do not play the game (face it, grinding same mobs in the same spot for hours is playing like 0.1% of the game, if that) to get much more CP per hour grinded than it is for players who quest per hour?

Also, you are in the tiny minority, mate. Sorry to say, but you are statistically irrelevant, so ZOS has no incentive to appease grinders OVER the majority of gamers.

I'm a returning player, that transferred from PC, but now I'm playing again on console. I guess I'm one of those "new casuals" that will never catch up since I don't have a single VR character or CP yet nor the time to grind. And guess what? I'm having too much fun and don't freaking care!

I DON"T HAVE THE TIME TO GRIND, AND NEVER WILL, BUT I DON'T EXPECT TO BE ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD AND BE REWARDED THE SAME CP BONUSES WITHOUT PUTTING IN THE TIME AS THOSE DEDICATED PLAYERS WHO HAVE SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS PLAYING THE GAME... and yes, grinding is playing the game, and it's a completely valid play style.

If you don't want to grind it's ok, but other players can choose to play the game whoever they want, it's their time and their choice, and as a new casual player I can respect and understand that. The CP system is just a very nice carrot at the end of the stick to keep players playing a little bit more, and more players is always a good thing. With the diminishing returns and the math explained earlier, I think the "problems" have really been over exaggerated... let's stop wasting time over this non-issue and just enjoy the game! Cheers!

I clearly stated this before, so I don't know why you're saying the same exact thing- People should do whatever they want, this includes grinding. I am not suggesting people who enjoy (if you want to call it that) grinding to stop grinding. What I am saying is grinding should not be rewared with MORE CP per hour equal to questing or PvPing per hour because it is unfair.

Why should somebody be rewarded more when what they're doing is barely even playing the game in the first place? Sorry, technically grinding is playing the game, but it's not REALLY playing the game. Not only that, but the system, by allowing a player to achieve much more CP through grinding, encourages grinding when the vast majority of people do not suffer for autism in order be inclined to grind, nor does the majority even enjoy it. So there is absolutely no reason to incentivize grinding at all.

MCMancub wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Its almost like the system was purposely designed to make you buy xp potions from the store....

You dropped your tinfoil hat.

Really? The suggestion that casual players might just rather pay to catch up or level up to the no lives is too crazy. Ever since it failed for bf4, bf3, assassins creed 3,4, unity, dragon age inquisition, etc. Just kidding . Every leve vr 14 vampire no life that kills you in PvP is a walking sales pitch for crown store exp boosts.

Grown adults will usually just pay to get there because their time is usually more valuable.
The op is not paranoid, he has just grasped the form and function of a pretty fair version of capitalism.
Play more or pay more.

I like the game. I don't mind playing.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

A few notes on this discussion.

- It takes three times the CP to stack in one stat (100 in stamina regen = 300cp needed total)
- The scaling is NOT linear. It turns linear one you start getting 0.1% bonus per champion point. Which mean to get a 1% bonus you need stack one stat and gain 30cp. Most people wont even do this.
- After you get a lot of champ points you run out worthwhile investments for your build and spread to minor advantages, or alternate build advantages.
- No one invests enough to have 20% stam regen. It is horribly inefficient.
- The only real gap created is the %crit passives gained. Which is achieved at the 90cp bench mark.
- %crit has little effect in pvp.
- The 90cp benchmark takes about 3 months to obtain for a new player. Very reasonable.
- Some who has played for a year would and should have an advantage over a new player.
- The gear and learning curve have a much greater effect than CP.

If you are a new player getting wooped, could you consider the person has been playing for a long time so knows the game better and has better gear. Not just that he has 8% more stam regen then you because of the champion system.

It's true that nobody invests into 25% stam regen, but I used that as a clear example of the significance of CP stats.

The point remains that a 25% stam regen boost itself is pretty big, and you saying that people don't invest completely into stam regen for example does not refute the argument that CP stats are significant since they can spend those points they could have into stam regen into other passives. If anything it strengthens the argument or simply adds nothing because, since 25% stam regen itself is great, the fact that it's inefficient taking account other passives means that investing in other passives provides a greater yield for your chance to survive in a fight- that investing in other passives is even greater than the 25% stam regen.

Nobody is saying there shouldn't be disparity and reward for time invested. Besides the fact of the greater yield of CP from grinding relative to time (which is a problem that needs to be fixed itself), the other, more minor issue is that it might take too long to reach an amount of CP that a significant portion of the population might be adverse to, thus potentially harming the longevity of the game itself.

New players SHOULD get wooped, but they should also be able to eventually woop back as long as gaining CP doesn't take EVE levels of time (exaggeration), and especially grind

I actually am open o the possibility that the CP system will still be favorable if questing and PvPing granted the same amount of CP per hour as grinding per hour would. People wouldn't be bored out of their minds because they don't need to grind, questing and PvPing will be sufficient, AND it would get them closer to higher CP.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Aiden_Dark wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ANY MMO that has been for any length of time has disparity between veteran players and new players, new players shouldn't expect to be on par with them until they have put in the equal amount of time. Not sure where this sense of, "I'm a new player therefore I'm entitled to be equal to someone who has played much longer" comes from. Put in several months of effort and it shall be rewarded, but expecting to be equal to a veteran player within a couple of weeks has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with that player's attitude.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this. I'm still on level 45 and would never expect to be on par with a VR player that have spent countless hours investing in their character. It wouldn't be fair to those veteran players if I could just roll in in my new character and be on equal terms after a very short time investment.

And after 3 years when you still haven't caught up with those Vets and still get destroyed in PVP ?
Your 3 years of hard graft got you far....didn't it ?

And when the games been going 5 years.
Those new players cant hope to be comparable until they too have been grinding for 5 years at which point those at 5 years would have had 10 years worth of grind and CP.

There is no cap to this system and the diminishing return isnt really that diminishing.
You will never catch up and always be cannon fodder.

Dumbest argument in this thread by far. CP does have a cap at 3600 points.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

A few notes on this discussion.

- It takes three times the CP to stack in one stat (100 in stamina regen = 300cp needed total)
- The scaling is NOT linear. It turns linear one you start getting 0.1% bonus per champion point. Which mean to get a 1% bonus you need stack one stat and gain 30cp. Most people wont even do this.
- After you get a lot of champ points you run out worthwhile investments for your build and spread to minor advantages, or alternate build advantages.
- No one invests enough to have 20% stam regen. It is horribly inefficient.
- The only real gap created is the %crit passives gained. Which is achieved at the 90cp bench mark.
- %crit has little effect in pvp.
- The 90cp benchmark takes about 3 months to obtain for a new player. Very reasonable.
- Some who has played for a year would and should have an advantage over a new player.
- The gear and learning curve have a much greater effect than CP.

If you are a new player getting wooped, could you consider the person has been playing for a long time so knows the game better and has better gear. Not just that he has 8% more stam regen then you because of the champion system.

- Some who has played for a year would and should have an advantage over a new player.

Go look at the most lucrative online game right now on the market. Go look at the msot popular game played.

Do they give you an advantage in the game for playing 1 year more then your fellow. No they dont all of them they dont... Not a single one

If they have that in mind. then we will see this game die within 2 years.

Nothing to say more.

Diablo 3.
Game over.

OMG thanks!! thanks!!!!!!!!

And what is diablo 3 ? a single player game you can play with friend that has no kind of pvp in it. YESSS thanks for helping me in my arguing

So we shall Keep Cp , remove any kind of pvp, remove all the leader board and change the name of this game for TESWF : The elderscroll with Friend!

Also did I mention they reset the Paragon level on each season for the leader boards.

Maybe they should reset Cp each month and keep the leaderboard?? Great idea I love you

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Molsondry wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

A few notes on this discussion.

- It takes three times the CP to stack in one stat (100 in stamina regen = 300cp needed total)
- The scaling is NOT linear. It turns linear one you start getting 0.1% bonus per champion point. Which mean to get a 1% bonus you need stack one stat and gain 30cp. Most people wont even do this.
- After you get a lot of champ points you run out worthwhile investments for your build and spread to minor advantages, or alternate build advantages.
- No one invests enough to have 20% stam regen. It is horribly inefficient.
- The only real gap created is the %crit passives gained. Which is achieved at the 90cp bench mark.
- %crit has little effect in pvp.
- The 90cp benchmark takes about 3 months to obtain for a new player. Very reasonable.
- Some who has played for a year would and should have an advantage over a new player.
- The gear and learning curve have a much greater effect than CP.

If you are a new player getting wooped, could you consider the person has been playing for a long time so knows the game better and has better gear. Not just that he has 8% more stam regen then you because of the champion system.

- Some who has played for a year would and should have an advantage over a new player.

Go look at the most lucrative online game right now on the market. Go look at the msot popular game played.

Do they give you an advantage in the game for playing 1 year more then your fellow. No they dont all of them they dont... Not a single one

If they have that in mind. then we will see this game die within 2 years.

Nothing to say more.

Diablo 3.
Game over.

OMG thanks!! thanks!!!!!!!!

And what is diablo 3 ? a single player game you can play with friend that has no kind of pvp in it. YESSS thanks for helping me in my arguing

For PvP specfically

Darkfall

Darkfall never heard of it must be popular .

EVE? 131 viewer right now on Twitch must be really popular.

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Aiden_Dark wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ANY MMO that has been for any length of time has disparity between veteran players and new players, new players shouldn't expect to be on par with them until they have put in the equal amount of time. Not sure where this sense of, "I'm a new player therefore I'm entitled to be equal to someone who has played much longer" comes from. Put in several months of effort and it shall be rewarded, but expecting to be equal to a veteran player within a couple of weeks has nothing to do with the game, and everything to do with that player's attitude.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with this. I'm still on level 45 and would never expect to be on par with a VR player that have spent countless hours investing in their character. It wouldn't be fair to those veteran players if I could just roll in in my new character and be on equal terms after a very short time investment.

And after 3 years when you still haven't caught up with those Vets and still get destroyed in PVP ?
Your 3 years of hard graft got you far....didn't it ?

And when the games been going 5 years.
Those new players cant hope to be comparable until they too have been grinding for 5 years at which point those at 5 years would have had 10 years worth of grind and CP.

There is no cap to this system and the diminishing return isnt really that diminishing.
You will never catch up and always be cannon fodder.

Dumbest argument in this thread by far. CP does have a cap at 3600 points.

Dumbest response in this thread by far
Any idea how long it takes to reach 3600 points ?

one easy booster would be to make it so that once you hit vr14, every day your "enlightened" experience is spent automatically without logging into the game, so that if you take a break for a few months when you come back you won't play for 30 min and then realize you will never catch up leading you to quit again and for good.