Broken system - Grinding 700 Champion Points (screenshot)

Ffastyl · June 2015

The Champion System is designed with diminishing returns. If memory serves correctly, the maximum boost to regeneration stats is 10.8%. At 10 points invested into the respective stars, you are at a 5% boost.

The gap between 0 and 3600 may be large, but between 200 and 700 may not be as big as you want to think.

Keep in mind, the highest boost any star grants is +25%, and half of that is achieved before you invest 20 points into a star (actual amount varying by star).

LegacyDM · June 2015

badmojo wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively?

That's kind of the point of this thread, if you spend your time pvp'ing, questing & doing daily dungeons(playing the game), you end up with less champion points for your time than if you ran in circles in a Cyrodiil Delve killing mobs over and over(grinding).

By design, ZOS is encouraging everyone to grind in cyrodiil delves. Which makes those delves important for your alliance to hold, which makes "buff servers" desirable and causes imbalance between the factions. Should AD players have an easier time getting champion points simply because they have more people? It's even further screwed up when you consider that any of us can simply switch to an AD vet character and earn champion points for all our characters. So you end up with DC & EP players who actually want to keep AD's buff server, because they can go mine CP's there.

This whole issue is exactly like the XP grinds in the past that were exploited and eventually patched. The goal is to make everything return roughly the same amount of XP, or in this case champion points, because then people can really do whatever they enjoy and they won't be gimping themselves in the process.

I bet even the guy who has those 227x3 champion points in the screen shot, wishes he could go do other stuff in the game and still get the same XP/CP return. But, currently there is very little choice when you crunch the numbers.

The problem with the OP should not be about the champion system. It is about lack of content. Everyone n this thread is bashing the champion system because it's unfair for those who do not wish to grind. The real issue here is there is no alternative to grinding because of a lack of content. However, the champion system is fine and a great addition to the game.

LegacyDM · June 2015

Cernow wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively? Since when did we become so entitled that everyone has to equal?

This is an mmo. Some people have more time to play than others. That's life. Get used to it. If someone dedicated 5 hours a day 7 days a week to playing an mmo of course they will be ahead and it's reasonable that they should be. They dedicated more time to it. Sorry that you can't catch up. Make a life change so you too can play five hours a day 7 days a week.There problem solved.

There is absolutely no system that can be created to make everyone equal because people wanted to be rewarded for their time. If people aren't rewarded for their time than their is no incentive to play. Just make everyone vr 14 and give everyone the best gear and max champion points. Where is the fun in that?

Yay, you mentioned entitlement. It had to happen. Such a red herring, entitlement has nothing to do with it.

This is a GAME. Successful and enjoyable games require parameters and a relatively level playing field on which to compete. Not totally equal, effort and skill should be rewarded. But everyone does need to at least be on the same ballpark or else things develop into a farce.

All games require this because it no fun being ground into the dust by another player with superhero powers. And unless you base your self worth on being able to grind other players into the dust in such a fashion, there's not a lot of fun to be had dominating another player like this either. This is as true in a MMO as it is in any other game or sport.

And yes, I'm talking mostly about PvP. The trap that so many MMOs fall into is they make their PVE game all about a never ending arms race of gear and skill progression, to keep players backsides on seats. But when this approach is translated into PvP you end up with certain players exponentially more powerful than others, thus sucking all the fun out of the game for the majority.

Yes players should be rewarded for effort and there needs to be a way to continue to improve and hone your character. But these things need to be properly balanced with caps, limits and diminishing returns. And yes I know there's some in ESO, but nowhere near enough and it's clear some huge mistakes have been made which will only get worse with time, not better.

It is about entitlement. All I see are post after post about people complaining because they can't catch up. Or they can't compete because grinding rewards those with more time. The real issue here is a lack of content that provides an alternative to those that don't want to grind. Otherwise, if you want to compete, than grind, until new content is offered. Don't bash the champion system because someone has more time on their hands than you do.

gard · June 2015

JacksonCarter13 wrote: »

A little long but this post is proof of the broken system.

Glad you actually posted this I have been writing a draft for a week with numbers and proof which you'veready shown how absolutely absurd the champion system is and how it is co completely broken it's dumb. Let me give everyone a prime example . I have arguably completed the most out of anyone in this game. If not I'm easily top ten I have over 13.8k achievement points and have about 20 achievements left in the entire game. I am on of the top pvpr's on the dc side of NA. I have 188 or something right around there champion points. So through about 50 days of game time maybe more and completing almost everything I have about 120 less than an average EP or AD top pvp're. Now I don't blame them one bit, @zos has created a completely invalid system. So not by playing the game but by sitting in a dungeon in cyrodiil in a completely flipped campaign where my alliance can not keep up the population to actually defend 4 servers is how your character now gains progression. So not is your system just dumb, it's created a major form of imbalance where
Either I sit in a dungeon and grind 200 champ points or just simply be weaker although I play everyday. If this is what I think imagine a new player coming into the game wanting to be a competitive gamer. It's impossible to catch up for them and although I can probably catch up I'm not going to sit in a dungeon for hours when there is good pvp outside . @zos really your system is the most imbalance in an mmo I have ever see . The champion system has destroyed almost all longevity of the game especially for new players. And zos ifYour going to try and tell me 150 champion points don't make a world of difference your simply lying. - Urukai out!

First you say that you are a top pvper.
Then you say you have about 120 less CP than the average pvper.
Then you claim that champ points are a huge advantage.

So how did you become a top pvper if having CP is so critical?
You contradict yourself. Hard to take you seriously because of that.

Just play and quit worrying about what other people have or do.

drschplatt · June 2015

They referenced this situation in another thread (my 1337 searching skills are failing me) in which they suggested that there would be catchup mechanics available in order to help reduce the spread. But I think it's working as intended that there is a divide between those with high CP and those with low CP. If there wasn't such a divide, there would be no point in having the CP to begin with.

skillastat · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Don't bash the champion system because someone has more time on their hands than you do.

It's not about time it's about how to actually get the CP.

Drazhar14 · June 2015

What's broken is the gap between people with lots of champion points and new players. They made the passives way too strong. If people want to grind their life away, that's their choice though. That being said, they should buff experience gain from actually playing the game.

Snit · June 2015

If .2% of the playerbase wants to grind mobs for 14 hours a day to achieve a 15 - 20% advantage over normal players... I'm fine with that.

Let them sit in their holes and grind away. We'll rarely see them anyway.

olsborg · June 2015

CP system will doom the game eventually, when pvp becomes "whos got the most cp", because it will. Theres not too much difference between 200-500 cp, but 200 - 1000 cp, then it starts becoming quite noticeable. Its poo imo.

glavius · June 2015

There isn't much diminishing returns. Some but nowhere near enough.

glavius · June 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Champion System is designed with diminishing returns. If memory serves correctly, the maximum boost to regeneration stats is 10.8%. At 10 points invested into the respective stars, you are at a 5% boost.

The gap between 0 and 3600 may be large, but between 200 and 700 may not be as big as you want to think.

Keep in mind, the highest boost any star grants is +25%, and half of that is achieved before you invest 20 points into a star (actual amount varying by star).

And no max is not 10.8%. It's around 25% for most bonuses.

Faugaun · June 2015

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

So people are rewarded for having more time in the game and putting in more effort? WUT!!!!!!

Plus with diminishing returns at a certain point the bonus gains are very small.

@coryevans_3b14_ESO just curious have you actually looked at the curves?

http://asolutionaday.com/elder-scrolls-calculators/thief/shadow/defile-star-calculator/

See the graph on this link
@Taleof2Cities ^^

@Ffastyl it may not be as small as you think http://asolutionaday.com/elder-scrolls-calculators/thief/lover/mooncalf-star-calculator/

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Champion System is designed with diminishing returns. If memory serves correctly, the maximum boost to regeneration stats is 10.8%. At 10 points invested into the respective stars, you are at a 5% boost.

The gap between 0 and 3600 may be large, but between 200 and 700 may not be as big as you want to think.

Keep in mind, the highest boost any star grants is +25%, and half of that is achieved before you invest 20 points into a star (actual amount varying by star).

Tankqull · June 2015

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

So people are rewarded for having more time in the game and putting in more effort? WUT!!!!!!

Plus with diminishing returns at a certain point the bonus gains are very small.

the dimnishing returns are not strong enough, its a linear increasement from ~30points onward.

Skiserony · June 2015

It would be cool if doing stuff you get more CP instead of grinding, which encourages the high endgame way more. But if someone does grind night and day for more CP, he's really not wrong indeed.

Only problem is for future players, we get enlightment for 1 CP every day, if new players could get all those days enlightment when they rank up to VR, they are still behind but can catch up way faster. It isn't unfair against older players because they got all the enlightment as well. It should encourage newcomers more, because a year or more playing to get competitive is a bit too long.

Dagoth_Rac · June 2015

The problem is *not* lack of content. There is plenty of content. 24 dungeons, 3 Trials, DSA, Craglorn dailies, 16 zones of solo storyline content, dozens of keeps and resources in Cyrodiil, etc. The problem is that the large amount of existing content gives *significantly* worse XP than grinding. Make doing the actual game content give similar XP and you will get fewer complaints. Everybody knows that people who play more will be ahead of the curve. People are upset that 1 hour of XP from grinding is *so* much better than 1 hour of any other gameplay.

Faugaun · June 2015

If I had my way ... 1 hour of rp would = 1 h of grinding for cp

But questing, PvP dungeons, dailys, trials etc....would provide 1.25x or something like that......

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · June 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Champion System is designed with diminishing returns. If memory serves correctly, the maximum boost to regeneration stats is 10.8%. At 10 points invested into the respective stars, you are at a 5% boost.

The gap between 0 and 3600 may be large, but between 200 and 700 may not be as big as you want to think.

Keep in mind, the highest boost any star grants is +25%, and half of that is achieved before you invest 20 points into a star (actual amount varying by star).

I remember every star maxes out at 20% or 25% increase/decrease.

It's true that you get the most of it rather early on, but please don't forget about two things: the passives you unlock, and the fact that you can spread your points over many stars. It's unlikeley that someone with 700 points will max out only 7 stars, but rather spreading the points to 15-20 different ones. So we're not only talking about a, let's say, 10% increase to fire damage, but on the other hand also 10% reduced incoming fire damage - which creates a bigger gap compared to only looking at 10% or 14% increased damage.

Kerioko · June 2015

How to lose at ESO:

-Play as you want, with your friends, with the race and class that you want to be. Choose your armor based on look and unique bonuses. Be social and enjoy the world of Tamriel!

How to win at ESO:

-Pick an OP race (imperial or redguard) and grind goblins in a cyrodil delve until your eyes bleed, ensuring you harass any other player that messes up your grind rotation. Spend hundreds of thousands of gold on PVP gear to stack weapon damage to the max, even though the only time you have spent in PVP is in a delve grinding. Only break the grind cycle to run endgame content when needed to reclaim you spot on the leaderboard.

Faugaun · June 2015

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Champion System is designed with diminishing returns. If memory serves correctly, the maximum boost to regeneration stats is 10.8%. At 10 points invested into the respective stars, you are at a 5% boost.

The gap between 0 and 3600 may be large, but between 200 and 700 may not be as big as you want to think.

Keep in mind, the highest boost any star grants is +25%, and half of that is achieved before you invest 20 points into a star (actual amount varying by star).

I remember every star maxes out at 20% or 25% increase/decrease.

It's true that you get the most of it rather early on, but please don't forget about two things: the passives you unlock, and the fact that you can spread your points over many stars. It's unlikeley that someone with 700 points will max out only 7 stars, but rather spreading the points to 15-20 different ones. So we're not only talking about a, let's say, 10% increase to fire damage, but on the other hand also 10% reduced incoming fire damage - which creates a bigger gap compared to only looking at 10% or 14% increased damage.

@r.Jan_emailb16_ESO No defile maxes @ 30% see link in my post above, also some of the weaker ones are much lower than 20%, please look at the graph on the defile link the last points are actually quite meaningful

ragespell · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively? Since when did we become so entitled that everyone has to equal?

This is an mmo. Some people have more time to play than others. That's life. Get used to it. If someone dedicated 5 hours a day 7 days a week to playing an mmo of course they will be ahead and it's reasonable that they should be. They dedicated more time to it. Sorry that you can't catch up. Make a life change so you too can play five hours a day 7 days a week.There problem solved.

There is absolutely no system that can be created to make everyone equal because people wanted to be rewarded for their time. If people aren't rewarded for their time than their is no incentive to play. Just make everyone vr 14 and give everyone the best gear and max champion points. Where is the fun in that?

So a dude who can spend his life in front of his monitor is entitled to be the best in game. But it's immoral if someone could buy this advantage with money. It would become pay to win. I never understood this distinction.

Tankqull · June 2015

Kerioko wrote: »

How to lose at ESO:

-Play as you want, with your friends, with the race and class that you want to be. Choose your armor based on look and unique bonuses. Be social and enjoy the world of Tamriel!

How to win at ESO:

-Pick an OP race (imperial or redguard) and grind goblins in a cyrodil delve until your eyes bleed, ensuring you harass any other player that messes up your grind rotation. Spend hundreds of thousands of gold on PVP gear to stack weapon damage to the max, even though the only time you have spent in PVP is in a delve grinding. Only break the grind cycle to run endgame content when needed to reclaim you spot on the leaderboard.

forget one point, break your grind to demand on the forums that vigor to be put down to lvl 5 in the alliance ranks to ensure that after grinding one day of pvp enables you to use it...

F7sus4 · June 2015

700 CP no-life < 300 CP pro-player

Thank you!

Joy_Division · June 2015

Iselin wrote: »

Different strokes... play it the way you enjoy it and stop worrying about the way others play it.

The problem comes in when you think the way you enjoy playing it is the best way and you want others who play it differently to be penalized for their lack of good sense

It seems to be a competitive PVP thing that could only possibly be fixed if everyone was given the identical stats regardless of gear or CPs. Where would be the fun in that? Besides... the complaining would then just shift to the other favorite PVP gripe: "class x is OP'd... nerf them!"

Not necessarily. It's just that the way I enjoy playing, which is by doing traditional fantasy game stuff like questing, exploring, and PvPing, should not be at a significant disadvantage to someone who likes to AoE zombies.

Erock25 · June 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

700 CP no-life < 300 CP pro-player

Thank you!

I must really be falling behind in CP when 300 is the current sane number of CP.

Baconlad · June 2015

Day man ya'll are a bunch of doomsday preppers. Shut up and play the game. Champ system is a system of getting something even though your level is capped. Having 700 cp's doesn't make anyone op, only gives a slight bonus to their build. I have less than 200 cp's and love getting that little 'ding' in game so I can and spend a new point. I play three hours at least a night mostly in pvp. I have no issues. Matter of fact if you 700cp's guys would like to test my statement, come to chillrend, I'm in EP. We'll see how much better than me you are bro's. Gosh.... you realize what 10% stamina regen equates for most builds? Like 100 regent... which is horrible, maxed out its like 250 regen, which is good.... but not 'Zomg game broken'... damn naysayers.... only thing about the champ system I think needs changed is new players should get to accrue them as well.

david.haypreub18_ESO · June 2015

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

So people are rewarded for having more time in the game and putting in more effort? WUT!!!!!!

Plus with diminishing returns at a certain point the bonus gains are very small.

Problem is, the returns don't actually diminish that quickly, and with bonuses at 75 and 120 points, there really is a big gap between someone with 50 points and someone with 360, 720 or 1080.

I thought VR was a grind, but this is way worse. Sad.

Nightreaver · June 2015

The problem I have isn't with the people who have attained that many CP through eye-bleeding grinding.

The problem I have is with the people who have attained that many CP through botting.

I see people who place their character in a location where a group of mobs spawn spamming AOEs and Damage shields while never moving once. This is being done almost 24/7 outside of short periods where I imagine the person is actually out somewhere playing his character.

Alcast · June 2015

im at 244 CP....

oh And ZOS said the CP is capped at 300/month....3fuking00.....like who the f...did the math..../ZOSLOGIC

Saint_JiubB14_ESO · June 2015

Alcast wrote: »

im at 244 CP....

oh And ZOS said the CP is capped at 300/month....3fuking00.....like who the f...did the math..../ZOSLOGIC

I never heard that, not that if really matters.

DaveMoeDee · June 2015

Olysja wrote: »

i've around 300 and never grinded. but tried one day and i made 18CPs. so 700 it's ok, *** system made by random scripter.

For how many CP did you have enlightenment? If someone has 8 characters at VR levels, they can get 8 CP pretty quick every day.