Joy_Division wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP, the time is now. I am barely hanging on.

Xsorus wrote: »

100% of the lag problems in Cyrodiil right now are completely the fault of the players in Cyrodiil.

When you have guilds keep insisting on running 24 man Zerg balls...even though they know its what causes the Lag...You can't blame ZOS completely on this. No one needs to run a 24 man zerg ball, You can wipe large groups in this game quite easily with 8 to 12 people...So the playerbase needs some of this blame....

Now other issues such as Balance..Yea..That's ZoS fault..They released a major game rebalance then took a break to work on the consoles..Which i understand why they are working on Consoles..to make money, but at the same time a balance patch should of followed the rebalance right afterward, not a couple months down the road letting things fester.

I wouldn't put the blame on the player base when the player base was told it would be capable of supporting that scale of PVP. I don't understand why people place blame on 24 or more players while suggesting everyone run around in 8-12 man groups. What happens when your 8-12 man groups have to hit the same keep together? Pretend it's not 24 or more players?

See this is a problem right here.

People are confusing zergs with zergballs.

having 24 people in the area fighting is not the same as 24 people stacked on top of one another spamming AOEs over and over again.

Until people start to understand that Zerging and Zergballs aren't the same..we're never going to get anywhere.

Fatalyis wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

100% of the lag problems in Cyrodiil right now are completely the fault of the players in Cyrodiil.

You can facepalm it all ya want..but when its Zerg Balls causing 100% of the ping issues in PvP its the players fault...not ZoS

So its the players fault for using the skills ZOS put into the game and not ZOS fault for not providing server stability?

I'm sorry, you're 100% wrong here. While these things exacerbate the problem, the overlying problem is with the game itself, not the players playing it. People have been stacking and using AOE's since beta in a game that advertised itself as having large-scale battles. How in any way someone could blame the players for playing the game as ZOS advertised, using the skills ZOS created, and on the servers and engines that ZOS runs is beyond me.

This is not an earnest attempt at addressing the problem, its just more Zergball forum QQ.

Only you're wrong about stacking since beta, No one was stacking at the start of the game...Because everyone thought AOE caps weren't in place (Because for a lot of abilities, they weren't)

It wasn't until after launch when people were whining about dying to Standard that ZOS was like "Oh yea its suppose to be capped at 6 like all AOES" and everyone was like "There is AOE caps?" in fact i can link you to countless threads and posts about this issue.

What Happens soon as they patch in the fix for those abilities? Everyone starts stacking, and slowly but surely server performance takes a nose dive.

And yes, its is the players Fault, Because not only have there been countless posts on the subject, not only has ZoS told you and everyone else "hey if you stack up and spam abilities it causes lag" you still have nimrods continue to do it.

It doesn't stop there either, Know how many 24 man zerg balls I saw before 1.6? Very few if any....Now most of the old groups that ran 12 back then picked up yet another 12 to zerg with even more people because they were getting crushed with 12 after the patch.

If you're going to whine about Ping issues in Cyrodiil, you need to place blame equally. You can't just say "Oh its all ZoS fault we suck as a player base and must stack on top of each other because if we don't random pugs kill us!"

So many things wrong with this response...

Yes people were stacking in beta, but it was less common because of the time frame and only hardcore grinders reached that level. And you can go back and watch early videos from major guilds after launch and those guilds stacked and used impulse. Not as prevalent as today, because the average player has caught up, but I've seen guilds running impulse trains as long as I've been playing this game, the only difference is in the frequency. The biggest reason the average player might not have seen stacking in beta was the limited time frame to level skills, but PTS users certainly were aware of aoe tactics.

And your whole 'people thought there were AoE caps' is wrong. ZoS added aoe caps, but under the 'guise' of 'oh hey these were supposed to be there all along,' much to the shock of addon makers and testers. Everyone who knew anything about the game knew that damage abilities didn't have aoe caps until the change, and the reasoning behind the change was a lie..

You didn't see zerg balls before 1.6? What game were you playing? Just on this comment alone you've annihilated your own credibility.

If the addition of AOE caps caused the lag, then why didn't it change when they were removed (albeit not completely)?

The real culprit is ZOS and their inability to fix their own problems.

Zos advertised the game as large scale open world PvP with 'hundreds' of players on screen. They put in groups of 24. They added AOE skills to the game. You can't blame players for playing the game ZOS advertised and designed the way ZOS intended. They failed, the blame is theirs, not ours.

1. No one was running Zerg Balls in beta, that is frankly a lie on your part...Now that doesn't mean people wouldn't AOE a clump down but that's not really a zerg ball. Generally the DPS would run in and bomb while the support hanged back and such. As someone who ran in a group that did just that for a very long time and fought groups with people like Fixate and such i can tell you it wasn't common till after 1.2 to see the 12 Mans appear doing the Zerg Ball BS.

2. No you're also wrong on this as well, This was tested multiple times back then. We found out that there were quite a few bit of skills that had caps, and a couple that didn't..Things like Talons/Standard for example didn't have Caps. They ended up just giving those caps like everything else. Problem is once they said Caps actually were in place they pretty much opened up the can of worms cause everyone remember what happened with GW2 and caps. There was no "Oh we're adding caps all of a sudden on everything" There were simply caps on some skills, and no caps on others. If you like I'll start bloody pulling of threads to show how wrong you are.

3. Where did I say I didn't see zerg balls before 1.6? The fact that you got wrong what I just said then claimed it annihilated my credibility shows that you lack reading comprehension. Go back and read my post again before you question peoples credibility and then actually quote them instead of posting random comments and claim that's what they said.

4. the AOE caps technically aren't removed, they've been increased but if you still have a ton of people standing in one area spamming abilities over and over again you're going to cause lag. AOE caps of course makes it easier for Groups to stack like this, but there are other things that need to be done to fix the problem as well. (Purge/Barrier/Vigor for example need caps)

5. You can have large numbers of people on the screen at once with very little lag, I know because i've actually pvped quite a bit without the zerg balls. Just because they put in Raid Groups of 24 doesn't mean you should be stacking on top of one another as well spamming constantly..and I can blame players just fine for doing something they know lags the game.....Its one thing if ya didn't know..but we have almost a year of evidence pointing that stacking and spamming is causing it and you still have terrible guilds who keep adding more and more people because random pugs wipe them doing the same crap as always.

I'm not sure it is possible for someone to be more wrong in a thread so many times as you have been.

You have the audacity to blame me and others for playing the crummy balance that ZoS has provided us the best we can because we don't intentionally run suboptimal builds or use inefficient tactics? Well aren't you the sanctimonious one.

And

" Where did I say I didn't see zerg balls before 1.6? The fact that you got wrong what I just said then claimed it annihilated my credibility shows that you lack reading comprehension. Go back and read my post again before you question peoples credibility and then actually quote them instead of posting random comments and claim that's what they said."

Right here:

"It doesn't stop there either, Know how many 24 man zerg balls I saw before 1.6? Very few if any....Now most of the old groups that ran 12 back then picked up yet another 12 to zerg with even more people because they were getting crushed with 12 after the patch."

I zerg-balled way way back when last May in a guild that specifically used the very tactics that you despise.

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP, the time is now. I am barely hanging on.

Xsorus wrote: »

100% of the lag problems in Cyrodiil right now are completely the fault of the players in Cyrodiil.

When you have guilds keep insisting on running 24 man Zerg balls...even though they know its what causes the Lag...You can't blame ZOS completely on this. No one needs to run a 24 man zerg ball, You can wipe large groups in this game quite easily with 8 to 12 people...So the playerbase needs some of this blame....

Now other issues such as Balance..Yea..That's ZoS fault..They released a major game rebalance then took a break to work on the consoles..Which i understand why they are working on Consoles..to make money, but at the same time a balance patch should of followed the rebalance right afterward, not a couple months down the road letting things fester.

I wouldn't put the blame on the player base when the player base was told it would be capable of supporting that scale of PVP. I don't understand why people place blame on 24 or more players while suggesting everyone run around in 8-12 man groups. What happens when your 8-12 man groups have to hit the same keep together? Pretend it's not 24 or more players?

See this is a problem right here.

People are confusing zergs with zergballs.

having 24 people in the area fighting is not the same as 24 people stacked on top of one another spamming AOEs over and over again.

Until people start to understand that Zerging and Zergballs aren't the same..we're never going to get anywhere.

Fatalyis wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

100% of the lag problems in Cyrodiil right now are completely the fault of the players in Cyrodiil.

You can facepalm it all ya want..but when its Zerg Balls causing 100% of the ping issues in PvP its the players fault...not ZoS

So its the players fault for using the skills ZOS put into the game and not ZOS fault for not providing server stability?

I'm sorry, you're 100% wrong here. While these things exacerbate the problem, the overlying problem is with the game itself, not the players playing it. People have been stacking and using AOE's since beta in a game that advertised itself as having large-scale battles. How in any way someone could blame the players for playing the game as ZOS advertised, using the skills ZOS created, and on the servers and engines that ZOS runs is beyond me.

This is not an earnest attempt at addressing the problem, its just more Zergball forum QQ.

Only you're wrong about stacking since beta, No one was stacking at the start of the game...Because everyone thought AOE caps weren't in place (Because for a lot of abilities, they weren't)

It wasn't until after launch when people were whining about dying to Standard that ZOS was like "Oh yea its suppose to be capped at 6 like all AOES" and everyone was like "There is AOE caps?" in fact i can link you to countless threads and posts about this issue.

What Happens soon as they patch in the fix for those abilities? Everyone starts stacking, and slowly but surely server performance takes a nose dive.

And yes, its is the players Fault, Because not only have there been countless posts on the subject, not only has ZoS told you and everyone else "hey if you stack up and spam abilities it causes lag" you still have nimrods continue to do it.

It doesn't stop there either, Know how many 24 man zerg balls I saw before 1.6? Very few if any....Now most of the old groups that ran 12 back then picked up yet another 12 to zerg with even more people because they were getting crushed with 12 after the patch.

If you're going to whine about Ping issues in Cyrodiil, you need to place blame equally. You can't just say "Oh its all ZoS fault we suck as a player base and must stack on top of each other because if we don't random pugs kill us!"

So many things wrong with this response...

Yes people were stacking in beta, but it was less common because of the time frame and only hardcore grinders reached that level. And you can go back and watch early videos from major guilds after launch and those guilds stacked and used impulse. Not as prevalent as today, because the average player has caught up, but I've seen guilds running impulse trains as long as I've been playing this game, the only difference is in the frequency. The biggest reason the average player might not have seen stacking in beta was the limited time frame to level skills, but PTS users certainly were aware of aoe tactics.

And your whole 'people thought there were AoE caps' is wrong. ZoS added aoe caps, but under the 'guise' of 'oh hey these were supposed to be there all along,' much to the shock of addon makers and testers. Everyone who knew anything about the game knew that damage abilities didn't have aoe caps until the change, and the reasoning behind the change was a lie..

You didn't see zerg balls before 1.6? What game were you playing? Just on this comment alone you've annihilated your own credibility.

If the addition of AOE caps caused the lag, then why didn't it change when they were removed (albeit not completely)?

The real culprit is ZOS and their inability to fix their own problems.

Zos advertised the game as large scale open world PvP with 'hundreds' of players on screen. They put in groups of 24. They added AOE skills to the game. You can't blame players for playing the game ZOS advertised and designed the way ZOS intended. They failed, the blame is theirs, not ours.

1. No one was running Zerg Balls in beta, that is frankly a lie on your part...Now that doesn't mean people wouldn't AOE a clump down but that's not really a zerg ball. Generally the DPS would run in and bomb while the support hanged back and such. As someone who ran in a group that did just that for a very long time and fought groups with people like Fixate and such i can tell you it wasn't common till after 1.2 to see the 12 Mans appear doing the Zerg Ball BS.

2. No you're also wrong on this as well, This was tested multiple times back then. We found out that there were quite a few bit of skills that had caps, and a couple that didn't..Things like Talons/Standard for example didn't have Caps. They ended up just giving those caps like everything else. Problem is once they said Caps actually were in place they pretty much opened up the can of worms cause everyone remember what happened with GW2 and caps. There was no "Oh we're adding caps all of a sudden on everything" There were simply caps on some skills, and no caps on others. If you like I'll start bloody pulling of threads to show how wrong you are.

3. Where did I say I didn't see zerg balls before 1.6? The fact that you got wrong what I just said then claimed it annihilated my credibility shows that you lack reading comprehension. Go back and read my post again before you question peoples credibility and then actually quote them instead of posting random comments and claim that's what they said.

4. the AOE caps technically aren't removed, they've been increased but if you still have a ton of people standing in one area spamming abilities over and over again you're going to cause lag. AOE caps of course makes it easier for Groups to stack like this, but there are other things that need to be done to fix the problem as well. (Purge/Barrier/Vigor for example need caps)

5. You can have large numbers of people on the screen at once with very little lag, I know because i've actually pvped quite a bit without the zerg balls. Just because they put in Raid Groups of 24 doesn't mean you should be stacking on top of one another as well spamming constantly..and I can blame players just fine for doing something they know lags the game.....Its one thing if ya didn't know..but we have almost a year of evidence pointing that stacking and spamming is causing it and you still have terrible guilds who keep adding more and more people because random pugs wipe them doing the same crap as always.

So, I'll give you one last chance to admit you're wrong before I annihilate your argument that stacking and aoe spamming is a recent thing (i.e., 'no one did it pre 1.2,' you saw 'very few, if any before 1.6')...

I'll wait...

Okay, so here's a video of the guild that got first beta and live emperor, less than a week after launch, blobbing together spamming AOE... To make it easy for you, there's a great example of this at 6:00, but its all over the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuI-fl0fCbc

So, now that you've been thoroughly disproven, now that your argument has been shown time and time again to be wrong, just admit it that you're wrong and move on.

ZOS is to blame for the lag, not the players who've been playing it the same way since its launch.

/facepalm

Lets quote what I wrote, since you lack reading comprehension.

"It doesn't stop there either, Know how many 24 man zerg balls I saw before 1.6? Very few if any....Now most of the old groups that ran 12 back then picked up yet another 12 to zerg with even more people because they were getting crushed with 12 after the patch."

First part of it, I say I saw very few if any 24 man zerg balls, second part I say I saw mostly 12 mans (and if you think zerg balls are only 24 man groups i'm going to laugh at you) At no point did I say i never saw zerg balls before 1.6...In fact I have multiple videos on my Youtube page complaining about Zerg Balls and showing videos of Zerg balls.

Now as for the video, I'll admit that's pretty close to zerg balling..You can tell they're still spreading out in a lot of engagements but they're very close to zerg ball level.

As for your argument that ZOS is to blame for the lag and i'm wrong....Again..you might want to go back and read.

They were pretty much mobile the whole time they're running around, They weren't really stacking in one spot spamming AOE on top of one another (The Mobile zergballs aren't super bad when they're moving in terms of lag, soon as they stop on one spot though that seems to be the problem)

Either way you need to actually read posts before you comment on them mate.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Players didn't crash every single PC Cyrodiil instance and the Console Megaservers last night.

That's ZOS's failure.

While players, in some instances, can bear some minor responsibility, the ultimate group that can and should be held accountable is ZOS. We gave them our custom at the promise of huge, epic AvAvA battles and have received an extremely faulty product in return.

This is ZOS's albatross to wear about its neck.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Players didn't crash every single PC Cyrodiil instance and the Console Megaservers last night.

That's ZOS's failure.

While players, in some instances, can bear some minor responsibility, the ultimate group that can and should be held accountable is ZOS. We gave them our custom at the promise of huge, epic AvAvA battles and have received an extremely faulty product in return.

This is ZOS's albatross to wear about its neck.

Yea....i know agrippa..they even said last night was their fault...

However if you're saying ZOS is fully at fault just because last night happened and the console launch is causing problems and that all the previous months are now their fault despite the fact that you're one of the guys who ran zerg balls and lagged the server over and over again i'm going to have to disagree

You're going to have to accept some of the responsibility mate..You know stacking up in a ball and aoeing causes lag..Yet you did it countless times.

That any player, anywhere, can ever, in any way, cause lag on the megaservers is ZOS's failure to code or architect their servers properly.

That they marketed this game as a large scale AvAvA experience is their responsibility to fulfill that promise.

As mad as I can get at other players when they drop massive zergs (those guilds that run double raids deep or more) which causes the server to absolutely defecate themselves -- I can acknowledge they're playing the game as it was designed, but the design is failing.

And, Xsorus, Hijinx was running full raid sized groups back in the early days of Bloodthorn. TSym (who appears in many of your anti zergball videos) would also run on the same server and coordinate attacks with us. Both our raid groups in one area, plowing through the ocean of Bloodthorn DC never caused me the slightest bit of lag (all pre-1.3). It wasn't until Dawnbreaker and the 1.3 lighting patch that the lag came and stayed.

During Dawnbreaker 2.0 (and a few times guesting on Wabbajack 2.0) was the first times I saw the really bad lag. During some of the dethroning of Hijinx emperors and during the dethroning of some of the Alacrity emperors where the server just laid an egg. I'd never seen anything like that before that point.

And it got worse every. freaking. patch.

That's ZOS.

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I never said that the Lighting component of the 1.3 patch caused the lag. I'm saying around that timeframe was when it started up.

I specifically stated that I experienced the lag 'during dethrones' -- massive zergfests that were often three way fights. I never mentioned FPS or framerate drops once.

Would you still be jumping on that part of my statement if I'd left out the word 'Lighting'? Sheesh.

You noticed it back then because that's the timeframe when people really started stacking up

Stack on Flag basically became common around that timeframe

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I never said that the Lighting component of the 1.3 patch caused the lag. I'm saying around that timeframe was when it started up.

I specifically stated that I experienced the lag 'during dethrones' -- massive zergfests that were often three way fights. I never mentioned FPS or framerate drops once.

Would you still be jumping on that part of my statement if I'd left out the word 'Lighting'? Sheesh.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I never said that the Lighting component of the 1.3 patch caused the lag. I'm saying around that timeframe was when it started up.

I specifically stated that I experienced the lag 'during dethrones' -- massive zergfests that were often three way fights. I never mentioned FPS or framerate drops once.

Would you still be jumping on that part of my statement if I'd left out the word 'Lighting'? Sheesh.

There's a lot of factors that lead to lag, especially when they stack up. We like to joke about the removal of Deer, but those were just one example of many excess calculations that are being run. PvP was optimized for how the game was made, but since 1.3 there have been continual changes to the game that have made it heavier. Think that ZOS just failed to accommodate for such changes in the PvP system and now everything has gone to hell.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Everyone keeps constantly complaining about the issues and calling out to ZOS. Has the player base done anything to show ZOS they are serious with all the "players are leaving, I am leaving" threads?

Are you guys still logging on and playing? Yeah there are issues but I still log on.

Edit: How many of those openly complaining to ZOS, proclaiming the death of all that is ESO, still paying for ESO Plus?

Xsorus wrote: »

100% of the lag problems in Cyrodiil right now are completely the fault of the players in Cyrodiil.

When you have guilds keep insisting on running 24 man Zerg balls...even though they know its what causes the Lag...You can't blame ZOS completely on this. No one needs to run a 24 man zerg ball, You can wipe large groups in this game quite easily with 8 to 12 people...So the playerbase needs some of this blame....

Now other issues such as Balance..Yea..That's ZoS fault..They released a major game rebalance then took a break to work on the consoles..Which i understand why they are working on Consoles..to make money, but at the same time a balance patch should of followed the rebalance right afterward, not a couple months down the road letting things fester.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Zhoyzu wrote: »

I nominate Rylana for our ambassador.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

I submit an alternate nominee of Gromfring.