Console: Why no option to see the damage we do?

danno8 · June 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

It's not that kind of game.

Get into the immersion. Get into the mindset of trying things out and seeing how effective you are, rather than having a number tell you. Just try to get used to it. Pretend you are your character and learning to fight, not just knowing it because you read it on Google. You'll have more fun this way, if you get in the game.

In real life you can "feel" yourself getting stronger through all of your senses.

In a game all we have is sight and sound and we rely on numbers to fill in the gaps since we can't feel things like touch, force, power, recoil, weight, tiredness, weakness etc...

Visual cues just aren't enough to make up for the loss of all that.

If you were to go just by how you are doing by how long fights take and such you would seem to be getting progressively weaker in most games since the first several levels are easy and then get harder as the game goes on. You'd think you were aging rapidly.

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

rb2001 · June 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It's not that kind of game.

Get into the immersion. Get into the mindset of trying things out and seeing how effective you are, rather than having a number tell you. Just try to get used to it. Pretend you are your character and learning to fight, not just knowing it because you read it on Google. You'll have more fun this way, if you get in the game.

True. The game developers said that they wanted information gained from the actual game world instead of numbers, and that is what heavily influenced many of their game decision. But even so, I still believe it to be better if they actually improved upon those in-world hints than simply leaving them as they are.

Make the bleeding effect more noticeable, have stuns have a better visual indicator, critical hits signified by something, etc. There are several things that they could improve upon as far as in-world effects are concerned.

I think you are I are of like minds.

I prefer to have things modeled realistically and display within the game world, not as UI elements.

So, with this said, I would agree with many of the other posters that there isn't enough info provided by the game in some cases.

In my preference, the fix for that is as mentioned above, more in game display.

I usually turn off all UI elements, as many as possible when I play any game. Anything that has no in game display, I leave on. I use healthbars above enemy heads because in reality, you can see when a guy is missing a leg or is bleeding profusely, but in game, you kind of can't.

So, I think at least some of us are on the same page here.

nastuug · June 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

Dimebagd88 · June 2015

I'm new to the game (console), but is the reasoning behind some of the options in game (or lack thereof) because of players that want to be more 'immersed' in the game? That is... Ridiculous... Dont get me wrong, I'm having so much fun with the game, but at the very least it could be an option as someone mentioned earlier. If there is some technical or other aspect to it that I may not know about, ok understood. But because people want to pretend? CMON MAN.

Kalifas · June 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It's not that kind of game.

Get into the immersion. Get into the mindset of trying things out and seeing how effective you are, rather than having a number tell you. Just try to get used to it. Pretend you are your character and learning to fight, not just knowing it because you read it on Google. You'll have more fun this way, if you get in the game.

True. The game developers said that they wanted information gained from the actual game world instead of numbers, and that is what heavily influenced many of their game decision. But even so, I still believe it to be better if they actually improved upon those in-world hints than simply leaving them as they are.

Make the bleeding effect more noticeable, have stuns have a better visual indicator, critical hits signified by something, etc. There are several things that they could improve upon as far as in-world effects are concerned.

More visual effects would affect performance on consoles. Sometimes the world doesn't give you enough information. But nevermind that because of"immersion". As long as I don't know for sure, it isn't real.

TequilaFire · June 2015

I can't tell if I am enlightened or not on PS4 except at logon because you can't hover your cursor over
xp or cp bar info like on PC.
At least that I have found as of yet, maybe there is a cursor mode have to look harder.

Cernow · June 2015

Immersion is a crutch for lazy game design.

Just thought I'd throw that out there

nastuug · June 2015

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can't tell if I am enlightened or not on PS4 except at logon because you can't hover your cursor over
xp or cp bar info like on PC.
At least that I have found as of yet, maybe there is a cursor mode have to look harder.

Any assistance with this question, @Rook_Master?

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Rook_Master · June 2015

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can't tell if I am enlightened or not on PS4 except at logon because you can't hover your cursor over
xp or cp bar info like on PC.
At least that I have found as of yet, maybe there is a cursor mode have to look harder.

If you are enlightened, the unfilled portion of the bar is shaded slightly blue, or green, or red.

There is no way to see how much enlightenment you have left, however, as far as I know.

nastuug · June 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

These numbers help assure the player that they are indeed doing xx% more damage or gaining the additional xx.x% regen from the selected Champion passive.

They love to throw numbers around you in tooltips and Champion constellations like you're preparing to send a shuttle to space, but fail to deliver when you are attempting to check if those are actually assisting you or not.

Dimebagd88 · June 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

danno8 · June 2015

TequilaFire wrote: »

I can't tell if I am enlightened or not on PS4 except at logon because you can't hover your cursor over
xp or cp bar info like on PC.
At least that I have found as of yet, maybe there is a cursor mode have to look harder.

nastuug · June 2015

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

Min-maxer, theorycrafter, hardcore... they have been branded with many titles. He's right. When you introduce MMO elements to the game, you bring that crowd in.

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

Min-maxer, theorycrafter, hardcore... they have been branded with many titles. He's right. When you introduce MMO elements to the game, you bring that crowd in.

I want ESO to not be so liner, but we dont all get our wishes. My point is you dont NEED numbers to play, like I dont NEED the game to be non-liner.

Kalifas · June 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

But how fast did I kill the mob? Let me time it[grabs stop clock]Oh wait, I can't use out of game things because that goes against what immersion sets out to accomplish?

Did I do enough damage? Maybe if I equip this gear piece and use this ability I will do more damage? Ugh, it seems like I am but I am not sure, I can't remember how far the health bar dipped on both accounts...

I want to go get that skyshard that my compass is pointing to. I wonder how far it is because I don't want to walk more than 4 minutes in that direction?[walks and has trouble finding it] Maybe I should pull up my mini-map? Not working? Ok I am going to look it up on a wiki.[breaks the purpose of immersion again]

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

These numbers help assure the player that they are indeed doing xx% more damage or gaining the additional xx.x% regen from the selected Champion passive.

They love to throw numbers around you in tooltips and Champion constellations like you're preparing to send a shuttle to space, but fail to deliver when you are attempting to check if those are actually assisting you or not.

As an FTC user on PC I can tell you that you will get more frustrated when you see the numbers that dont match the information listed on tooltips. Then when you tell Zeni that the tooltip is wrong they dont fix it for over a year... so I have taken the if I kill it I am doing enough damage approach.

Zorrashi · June 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

It's not that kind of game.

Get into the immersion. Get into the mindset of trying things out and seeing how effective you are, rather than having a number tell you. Just try to get used to it. Pretend you are your character and learning to fight, not just knowing it because you read it on Google. You'll have more fun this way, if you get in the game.

True. The game developers said that they wanted information gained from the actual game world instead of numbers, and that is what heavily influenced many of their game decision. But even so, I still believe it to be better if they actually improved upon those in-world hints than simply leaving them as they are.

Make the bleeding effect more noticeable, have stuns have a better visual indicator, critical hits signified by something, etc. There are several things that they could improve upon as far as in-world effects are concerned.

I think you are I are of like minds.

I prefer to have things modeled realistically and display within the game world, not as UI elements.

So, with this said, I would agree with many of the other posters that there isn't enough info provided by the game in some cases.

In my preference, the fix for that is as mentioned above, more in game display.

I usually turn off all UI elements, as many as possible when I play any game. Anything that has no in game display, I leave on. I use healthbars above enemy heads because in reality, you can see when a guy is missing a leg or is bleeding profusely, but in game, you kind of can't.

So, I think at least some of us are on the same page here.

Well hold on there. While a I certainly prefer more in-world hints, there are certain instances where some UI additions should probably be added. Like Cyrodil for one (where I'm sure you and I both agree does not need more lag). Sure I want to actually see the walls take damage with falling rocks and what not, but in the throng of battle an individual player may not be able to tell if he is actually hitting the wall with his siege engine. An indicator in the UI for a confirmed hit, in that instance, would be immensely helpful and should probably be added.

Dimebagd88 · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

Min-maxer, theorycrafter, hardcore... they have been branded with many titles. He's right. When you introduce MMO elements to the game, you bring that crowd in.

Is that inherently a bad thing? I mean, it's not going to affect someone's experience who wants to immerse themselves. Likely, they'll group up with different guilds, groups, players, etc and play the game their way. Obviously, this series has many devoted followers and have played their way for years, but no reason to limit the experience to just that. Its almost like saying there should be only first person view, with no option for third person, because you'll have more fun that way. As I mentioned earlier, loving this game and whether or not they introduce this as an option won't really affect how much I end up playing. Just saying, having that option would be pretty cool.

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

Kalifas wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

But how fast did I kill the mob? Let me time it[grabs stop clock]Oh wait, I can't use out of game things because that goes against what immersion sets out to accomplish?

Did I do enough damage? Maybe if I equip this gear piece and use this ability I will do more damage? Ugh, it seems like I am but I am not sure, I can't remember how far the health bar dipped on both accounts...

I want to go get that skyshard that my compass is pointing to. I wonder how far it is because I don't want to walk more than 4 minutes in that direction?[walks and has trouble finding it] Maybe I should pull up my mini-map? Not working? Ok I am going to look it up on a wiki.[breaks the purpose of immersion again]

These all seem like console issues... The PC has addons, everyone knew that the console would have a limited UI.

nastuug · June 2015

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

Min-maxer, theorycrafter, hardcore... they have been branded with many titles. He's right. When you introduce MMO elements to the game, you bring that crowd in.

Is that inherently a bad thing? I mean, it's not going to affect someone's experience who wants to immerse themselves. Likely, they'll group up with different guilds, groups, players, etc and play the game their way. Obviously, this series has many devoted followers and have played their way for years, but no reason to limit the experience to just that. Its almost like saying there should be only first person view, with no option for third person, because you'll have more fun that way. As I mentioned earlier, loving this game and whether or not they introduce this as an option won't really affect how much I end up playing. Just saying, having that option would be pretty cool.

I meant that comment to apply positive reinforcement to your statement, @Dimebagd88. Not battling you, trust me.

Saltypretzels · June 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

A bit extreme don't you think? Numbers are not the only way to tell if you are doing damage, though it is a traditional way.

It is not stupid. Nor is it dumb.

Nah, it is stupid. The dungeons at the end of the game are hard enough and with enough mobs that you need to know your capabilities. I've played with plenty of people on PC who did not use FTC, and they were almost always the reason the group failed.

Sallington · June 2015

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

A bit extreme don't you think? Numbers are not the only way to tell if you are doing damage, though it is a traditional way.

It is not stupid. Nor is it dumb.

Nah, it is stupid. The dungeons at the end of the game are hard enough and with enough mobs that you need to know your capabilities. I've played with plenty of people on PC who did not use FTC, and they were almost always the reason the group failed.

Exactly this. How are you supposed to know if your DPS is crap or not when you have more than 1 person attack the target?

"I guess my DPS is fine. Must be someone else's fault we keep wiping."
-Everyone in the group

Dimebagd88 · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Dimebagd88 wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Thing is, everyone plays games different. Especially in an mmo, there will always be those who want to min-max. To say they would have more fun playing a certain way is kind of ignorant. All in all, it should at least be an option.

Min-maxer, theorycrafter, hardcore... they have been branded with many titles. He's right. When you introduce MMO elements to the game, you bring that crowd in.

Is that inherently a bad thing? I mean, it's not going to affect someone's experience who wants to immerse themselves. Likely, they'll group up with different guilds, groups, players, etc and play the game their way. Obviously, this series has many devoted followers and have played their way for years, but no reason to limit the experience to just that. Its almost like saying there should be only first person view, with no option for third person, because you'll have more fun that way. As I mentioned earlier, loving this game and whether or not they introduce this as an option won't really affect how much I end up playing. Just saying, having that option would be pretty cool.

I meant that comment to apply positive reinforcement to your statement, @Dimebagd88. Not battling you, trust me.

Ah, of course. Definitely read it wrong.

nastuug · June 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

A bit extreme don't you think? Numbers are not the only way to tell if you are doing damage, though it is a traditional way.

It is not stupid. Nor is it dumb.

Nah, it is stupid. The dungeons at the end of the game are hard enough and with enough mobs that you need to know your capabilities. I've played with plenty of people on PC who did not use FTC, and they were almost always the reason the group failed.

Exactly this. How are you supposed to know if your DPS is crap or not when you have more than 1 person attack the target?

"I guess my DPS is fine. Must be someone else's fault we keep wiping."
-Everyone in the group

Some like @Amsel_McKay think the game should be more casual than that. Unfortunately, the game breeds competitive gameplay along with the need to survive difficult encounters in end-game group content. Hardly fitting for the casual environment.

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

A bit extreme don't you think? Numbers are not the only way to tell if you are doing damage, though it is a traditional way.

It is not stupid. Nor is it dumb.

Nah, it is stupid. The dungeons at the end of the game are hard enough and with enough mobs that you need to know your capabilities. I've played with plenty of people on PC who did not use FTC, and they were almost always the reason the group failed.

Exactly this. How are you supposed to know if your DPS is crap or not when you have more than 1 person attack the target?

"I guess my DPS is fine. Must be someone else's fault we keep wiping."
-Everyone in the group

Sorry was to busy looking at my stats and numbers to get out of the red...

Amsel_McKay · June 2015

nastuug wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

A bit extreme don't you think? Numbers are not the only way to tell if you are doing damage, though it is a traditional way.

It is not stupid. Nor is it dumb.

Nah, it is stupid. The dungeons at the end of the game are hard enough and with enough mobs that you need to know your capabilities. I've played with plenty of people on PC who did not use FTC, and they were almost always the reason the group failed.

Exactly this. How are you supposed to know if your DPS is crap or not when you have more than 1 person attack the target?

"I guess my DPS is fine. Must be someone else's fault we keep wiping."
-Everyone in the group

Some like @Amsel_McKay think the game should be more casual than that. Unfortunately, the game breeds competitive gameplay along with the need to survive difficult encounters in end-game group content. Hardly fitting for the casual environment.

ESO is not difficult AT ALL... 48 hour raids in PoG or waking the sleeper for the first time was hard... ESO is too easy... that is why everyone is willing to kill for new content in hopes they release something challenging.

rb2001 · June 2015

Well, every game will always fail at pleasing all mindsets. ESO deals with this problem especially because it in some ways bridges 2 very different type of player bases together.

I will personally not be cluttering my screen with colored boxes and jargon, and will advance my characters the way we advance in real life -- try, fail, try harder, fail, learn, rinse and repeat.

Those boxes may help you get where you want and figure out what's not right with your build faster, certainly, but they aren't for everyone.

I think the option to have more on-screen info, or have less info, is good.

The only thing that I don't like is when one group is forced to suffer the lack of options (i.e. when a decision is made that removes the option from one play style).

asteldian · June 2015

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Did the mob die? Then you did enough damage... Did you die? You did not do enough damage... same with healing.

@Amsel_McKay So by that logic, why is there even a tooltip damage shown?

ESO had this vision when making the UI. The tooltip is there to you can see how much that number changes by skill level or level, so you get an idea. If people stopped worrying about number and just played the game would be more fun. If you beat the dungeon life is good who cares if you could eek out %1 more damage.

Problem is, in agame with freedom of choice with so many skill options, armor options, set items, stats etc. The fact you have no indicator of what actually is better or worse makes these choices frustrating rather than useful.
Lets be honest, the only vision ZOS had with their UI is 'how little effort can we put into it and get away with it'.
The immersion excuse is along the same lines as the Templar bugs which recently got relabeled as 'features'.

All that said, I actually don't think the scrolling combat text is any real use, I have had it forever and actually don't even notice it and keep telling myself I really should turn it off. The dps meter is far more helpful and out the way so not immersion breaking. Course that is no help to consoles as they cannot have that either.