DDuke wrote: »

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

What are Nirnhoned, Harness Magicka, Eclipse, and dodge abilities, then?

Counters already do exist for these abilities. Just because most stamina builds are not going to be running Eclipse or Harness doesn't mean they don't exist, and dodge abilities are still a 20% counter to all single-target attacks even after Nirnhoned gets rightfully nerfed.

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

this is not reasonable, its unfair to expect a dodge roll stamina nightblade based build to be able to beat all other builds. Dodge roll should have counters like anything else...Bolt Escape is countered by gap closers, Dark Cloak is countered by detect pots and magelight, Green DRagon Blood is countered by disease weapons and healing debuffs, reflective scales are countered by channelled weapon attacks/ultimates, and DOT abilities.

its absurd to think Dodge Roll should render every single target ability in the game useless. It already avoids damage from every projectile in the game, yes projectile. Flame Whip is not a projectile and should not be dodgeable, Concealed Weapon is not a projectile its a weapon slash.

Dodge roll should be used to avoid projectiles like arrows, crystal frag, crushing shock, destro staff attacks, pretty much anything that is a projectile, which it does and does very well, but making it also able to dodge single target melee based abilities is just flat out stupid...and i say this as a Sorc who is OK with the fact all my abilities in my class Except Curse and Streak are dodgeable.

I see this post as someone whining that their are abilities in the game that counter their dodge roll spam. Ok i'll make a deal, you can have your dodge roll avoiding these abilities...in return i want Bolt Escape teleport distance increased to 5 meters farther then any gap closer in he game...that way i can pick my kills and port and no one can ever gap close me ever again....because this is exactly what you want with dodge roll and its unreasonable....

ZOS please leave these skills alone, there are very few undodgeable skills in the game as is and 3k stamina regen and rolling aorund like mad is already out of hand...im ok with dodge roll avoiding projectiles and such...but not melee instant cast abilties...that's just ludicrous....

Except that there are counters to roll dodge which are entirely fair and reasonable since they can in turn be countered by something else. Namely (I listed these earlier in this thread):

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

Counters & counters to counters, not I-Win buttons.

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

0 of those skills are dk or nb skills.

Then they should make more skills like that with skillful counterplays & give them to DKs/NBs, or change how whip/concealed work by giving them counterplays.

E.g. Dragon Breath being undodgeable would be perfectly fine, since it's a "skill shot" and you can avoid it with good movement, and from NB skills they could make Agony go through dodge since it has a cast time (they should revamp the skill entirely though).

I hope youre not serious when you mention agony. A cast time is most of the time tje death in duel or 1vX. Id be ok with cripple through dodge tho.

Erondil no not agony THEY WILL STUN YOU FOR A WHOLE 30 secs.... ohh the pain...

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

this is not reasonable, its unfair to expect a dodge roll stamina nightblade based build to be able to beat all other builds. Dodge roll should have counters like anything else...Bolt Escape is countered by gap closers, Dark Cloak is countered by detect pots and magelight, Green DRagon Blood is countered by disease weapons and healing debuffs, reflective scales are countered by channelled weapon attacks/ultimates, and DOT abilities.

its absurd to think Dodge Roll should render every single target ability in the game useless. It already avoids damage from every projectile in the game, yes projectile. Flame Whip is not a projectile and should not be dodgeable, Concealed Weapon is not a projectile its a weapon slash.

Dodge roll should be used to avoid projectiles like arrows, crystal frag, crushing shock, destro staff attacks, pretty much anything that is a projectile, which it does and does very well, but making it also able to dodge single target melee based abilities is just flat out stupid...and i say this as a Sorc who is OK with the fact all my abilities in my class Except Curse and Streak are dodgeable.

I see this post as someone whining that their are abilities in the game that counter their dodge roll spam. Ok i'll make a deal, you can have your dodge roll avoiding these abilities...in return i want Bolt Escape teleport distance increased to 5 meters farther then any gap closer in he game...that way i can pick my kills and port and no one can ever gap close me ever again....because this is exactly what you want with dodge roll and its unreasonable....

ZOS please leave these skills alone, there are very few undodgeable skills in the game as is and 3k stamina regen and rolling aorund like mad is already out of hand...im ok with dodge roll avoiding projectiles and such...but not melee instant cast abilties...that's just ludicrous....

Except that there are counters to roll dodge which are entirely fair and reasonable since they can in turn be countered by something else. Namely (I listed these earlier in this thread):

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

Counters & counters to counters, not I-Win buttons.

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

There already is:

Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic
Hardened Ward
Igneous Sheild
Blazing Sheild
Healing Ward

All of those skills absorb damage from both of those skills.

if you invested 100% into stamina instead of magicka then thats a trade off you willingly made...its a weakness in your build, no different then a weakness in any other build. thats the beauty of build diversity.

@DDuke

First of, these days, with the actual stamina meta, you need about 22-25k physical resistance to survive any stamina opening from stealth. If you have bellow that and you don't have any shield running, you will most likely die in most situations unless you are very responsive (the minority of players).

To reach that 22-25k physical resistances buffed, a magicka player must wear a minimum of 5pieces heavy and sacrifice in the meantime most of the passives which would be very useful for a magicka character in general (light armor tree). Consequence is : the magicka player must sacrifice alot of damage to gain that extra magicka regen he would otherwise get from light armor passives somewhere else.

As a magicka DK, I must keep up hardened armor, green dragon blood, igneous shield and reflective plate if the guy is an archer to counter the poison injection. Even doing that, the burst of damage goes often through that 23k physical resistance + 8k igneous shield in a matter of seconds. It doesn't give me enough time to recast my buffs and get any opening. Against such players, the only thing I can do is to defend myself continually to survive otherwise I die.

Also as Agrippa pointed out, as a magicka player, your stamina pool is very low. Usually between 12k and 17k with food buff. You don't have alot of stamina recovery either. Usually between 700 and 900. That means that if you hold block to mitigate the damage, even with block reduction enchants and a lot of champion points, you stand absolutely no chance AT ALL against a fear spammer.

As I said previously, a magicka DK have to use hardened armor, green dragon blood and igneous shield to survive. All a nightblade needs to survive is Rally and Vigor. In most situations, you won't even need to use Vigor. It is only for emergencies and then you complain that you don't have enough survivability ? Oh c'mon. You don't even have to use evasion.

If only we could hold block to counter as many attacks as you can dodge roll, that would be even but that proportion is not even close. A magicka character who hold block gets rekt in 1minute max against a nightblade who use fear every 6 seconds.

Also, don't tell me that "a player should not have to escape his oponent". This is exactly how a nightblade is meant to be played. No wonder there are so many procs that increase your speed after dodge rolling. It is to out maneuver your adversary and to re-open him from stealth every once in a while or force him to spend his stamina in gap closer (which doesn't even stun you mid-roll btw). You have so many choices to totally annihilate a magicka based player. Your arguments are pointless.

Finally, don't give me that excuse that Nirnhoded is broken so you have not been using it. It doesn't mean that Nirnoded is broken and that it is going to be fixed that NO ONE will use it once it is fixed. It will still be one of the most powerful trait and will be one of easiest way to counter magic damage.

So my suggestion are the following :

1) As people mentioned in this thread : Experience a magicka based character and see by yourself how easily you can kill ZERGBAD, Sypher Ali, Kerviz, ShadowStep, Sunshine, Xorus, Plesa, murdo and company.

2) Make a good use of Fear, Vigor, Rally and Evasion.

3) Get 2 pieces with nirnhoded.

4) Stop assuming that since 5% of the players are able to cc break Fear in 1.3 seconds and less and neglect all your initial damage, then permablock characters need a nerf. Your build isn't supposed to counter every other build and if you don't like fighting tanks, then just go away and find a new fight or reroll sorc.

[EDIT]: I forgot to mention, if you complain about the endless stamina of a permablock magicka player which obviously can't by any way spec into stamina, just imagine a second how frustrating it is for a magicka character to spam fossilize times and times again and see the nightblade constantly cc breaking and not blinking at all because while he specs into more stamina and more stamina regen, a stamina character doesn't only raise his damage and regen but also his defense (by cc breaking and dodge rolling even more) which is absolutely ridiculous. But this is another of my numerous suggestions as pointed in my signature.

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

this is not reasonable, its unfair to expect a dodge roll stamina nightblade based build to be able to beat all other builds. Dodge roll should have counters like anything else...Bolt Escape is countered by gap closers, Dark Cloak is countered by detect pots and magelight, Green DRagon Blood is countered by disease weapons and healing debuffs, reflective scales are countered by channelled weapon attacks/ultimates, and DOT abilities.

its absurd to think Dodge Roll should render every single target ability in the game useless. It already avoids damage from every projectile in the game, yes projectile. Flame Whip is not a projectile and should not be dodgeable, Concealed Weapon is not a projectile its a weapon slash.

Dodge roll should be used to avoid projectiles like arrows, crystal frag, crushing shock, destro staff attacks, pretty much anything that is a projectile, which it does and does very well, but making it also able to dodge single target melee based abilities is just flat out stupid...and i say this as a Sorc who is OK with the fact all my abilities in my class Except Curse and Streak are dodgeable.

I see this post as someone whining that their are abilities in the game that counter their dodge roll spam. Ok i'll make a deal, you can have your dodge roll avoiding these abilities...in return i want Bolt Escape teleport distance increased to 5 meters farther then any gap closer in he game...that way i can pick my kills and port and no one can ever gap close me ever again....because this is exactly what you want with dodge roll and its unreasonable....

ZOS please leave these skills alone, there are very few undodgeable skills in the game as is and 3k stamina regen and rolling aorund like mad is already out of hand...im ok with dodge roll avoiding projectiles and such...but not melee instant cast abilties...that's just ludicrous....

Except that there are counters to roll dodge which are entirely fair and reasonable since they can in turn be countered by something else. Namely (I listed these earlier in this thread):

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

Counters & counters to counters, not I-Win buttons.

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

There already is:

Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic
Hardened Ward
Igneous Sheild
Blazing Sheild
Healing Ward

All of those skills absorb damage from both of those skills.

if you invested 100% into stamina instead of magicka then thats a trade off you willingly made...its a weakness in your build, no different then a weakness in any other build. thats the beauty of build diversity.

Ohh... so you mean I play like, a stamina build?

I think the whole point is escaping you, there shouldn't be opponents that you can't beat simply because they happen to play a permablocking build and you play a stamina build, that is just bad game design.

Might sound fine to you from the permablocker perspective, but let me assure you it isn't so from the opponent's perspective. And when people are running to balance issues constantly, they tend to quit, meaning less players, meaning less healthy game & less diversity in PvP.

Diversity is achieved when you have multiple functioning playstyles, each with skill based counters & unique mechanics.

I don't feel like going back through everything and reading it all over again. I'm just wondering what you think should be done to counter roll dodgers in the future, and I'd rather not have you tell me that we should all slot soul assault.

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

this is not reasonable, its unfair to expect a dodge roll stamina nightblade based build to be able to beat all other builds. Dodge roll should have counters like anything else...Bolt Escape is countered by gap closers, Dark Cloak is countered by detect pots and magelight, Green DRagon Blood is countered by disease weapons and healing debuffs, reflective scales are countered by channelled weapon attacks/ultimates, and DOT abilities.

its absurd to think Dodge Roll should render every single target ability in the game useless. It already avoids damage from every projectile in the game, yes projectile. Flame Whip is not a projectile and should not be dodgeable, Concealed Weapon is not a projectile its a weapon slash.

Dodge roll should be used to avoid projectiles like arrows, crystal frag, crushing shock, destro staff attacks, pretty much anything that is a projectile, which it does and does very well, but making it also able to dodge single target melee based abilities is just flat out stupid...and i say this as a Sorc who is OK with the fact all my abilities in my class Except Curse and Streak are dodgeable.

I see this post as someone whining that their are abilities in the game that counter their dodge roll spam. Ok i'll make a deal, you can have your dodge roll avoiding these abilities...in return i want Bolt Escape teleport distance increased to 5 meters farther then any gap closer in he game...that way i can pick my kills and port and no one can ever gap close me ever again....because this is exactly what you want with dodge roll and its unreasonable....

ZOS please leave these skills alone, there are very few undodgeable skills in the game as is and 3k stamina regen and rolling aorund like mad is already out of hand...im ok with dodge roll avoiding projectiles and such...but not melee instant cast abilties...that's just ludicrous....

Except that there are counters to roll dodge which are entirely fair and reasonable since they can in turn be countered by something else. Namely (I listed these earlier in this thread):

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

Counters & counters to counters, not I-Win buttons.

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

There already is:

Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic
Hardened Ward
Igneous Sheild
Blazing Sheild
Healing Ward

All of those skills absorb damage from both of those skills.

if you invested 100% into stamina instead of magicka then thats a trade off you willingly made...its a weakness in your build, no different then a weakness in any other build. thats the beauty of build diversity.

Ohh... so you mean I play like, a stamina build?

I think the whole point is escaping you, there shouldn't be opponents that you can't beat simply because they happen to play a permablocking build and you play a stamina build, that is just bad game design.

Might sound fine to you from the permablocker perspective, but let me assure you it isn't so from the opponent's perspective. And when people are running to balance issues constantly, they tend to quit, meaning less players, meaning less healthy game & less diversity in PvP.

Diversity is achieved when you have multiple functioning playstyles, each with skill based counters & unique mechanics.

My class is the weakest class in the game against perma blockers.

Sorcs have no skills that drain stamina whatsoever. Blocking Crystal Frags, Curse, etc literally costs next to nothing. the only skill we do have that will drop block is Rune Cage and it has a 1.5 sec cast time.

your telling me i don't have issue with perma blockers?

No its called when i run into a tank build, that is built specifically to absorb damage and dish out pain in melee, i usually simply retreat. As that build is obviously a hard counter to my own, and i know my odds are not in my favor. This is called knowing the limits of your build.

Stamina build already do more DPS and Burst then magic with better passive armor the trade off is they have less active defense. Magic users do less DPS and Burst then melee but have slightly better active defenses(Damage shields).

This is a trade off, what you want is homogenization of the builds and the game, and i think that sjust flat out boring and many would agree with me. A big part of why i still play this game is because their are so many different builds and no one build is good at everything and no one build don't have counters....

There is a huge difference between a heavy armor magicka one hand shield tank and a heavy armor magicka one hand shield tank wearing 5pieces+ with nirnhoded. The problem is not perma block but the spell resistances here. If you encounter any reasonable one hand shield magicka tank or hybrid as myself who wear not more than 2pieces with nirnhoded, you will easily wreck him with a combination of unstable detonation + velocious curse + streak + crystal frag + endless fury if you are patient and wait for the right moment until his shield drops. I won't even mention how great mines are to get his shield down even easier everytime he uses a gap closer on you. Sorc is class with the most survivability, the most regen and the most damage at the moment (burst or not) against both stamina and magicka character (unless it is another sorc).

congratulations everyone, this is now a nerf sorc thread

DDuke wrote: »

I dont even... this thread is about flame whip & concealed attack being undodgeable, not about how much physical resistance you need to survive a stealth burst (answer is: more than is possible, you cannot survive without blocking or a dmg shield), or how permablockers "deserve" to be "unkillable juggernauts of death" to several builds because "diversity.

It is not a sorc thread either.


Fact is, this is a video game and the better player should win. Not the player who happens to play X build of unkillable.
This is why skills need active counters, just like in every other MMO out there.

If you can't counter a certain build, then there is an issue with the balance.

Diversity is not about having "unkillable" builds vs "instagib" builds, it's about having multiple differing styles of gameplay be viable in PVP, without them being frustrating because someone got instagibbed, or because someone met the wrong build along the way to a keep and got whipped & charged to death without being able to do a thing about it.

I gave plenty of solutions to counter the build but you obviously haven't read anything because you are stubborn with your own ideas and your big ego. Enjoy talking to yourself.

DDuke wrote: »

I dont even... this thread is about flame whip & concealed attack being undodgeable, not about how much physical resistance you need to survive a stealth burst (answer is: more than is possible, you cannot survive without blocking or a dmg shield), or how permablockers "deserve" to be "unkillable juggernauts of death" to several builds because "diversity.

It is not a sorc thread either.


Fact is, this is a video game and the better player should win. Not the player who happens to play X build of unkillable.
This is why skills need active counters, just like in every other MMO out there.

If you can't counter a certain build, then there is an issue with the balance.

Diversity is not about having "unkillable" builds vs "instagib" builds, it's about having multiple differing styles of gameplay be viable in PVP, without them being frustrating because someone got instagibbed, or because someone met the wrong build along the way to a keep and got whipped & charged to death without being able to do a thing about it.

I think what people are trying to tell you, is that though these builds may seem "unkillable" when faced with your build, they are in fact extremely killable when faced with someone elses build, just like how there is a build out there that would find it extremely hard to kill you.

The fact is that there are counters to whip/concealed weapon, but your build specifically doesn't seem to run said counters. Its the same thing with everything. There are counters to fear, but not everyone runs immovable. There are counters to stealth damage, but not everyone uses the morph of Mage Light. There are counters to DoTs but not everyone runs purge.

The fact is, the only way you can counter said skills is by stacking shields or blocking, increasing your Spell Reistance, increasing your fire resistance. You'd be surprised how effective these are as Lava Whip and Concealed weapon don't do much damage in the first place.

Ontop of this, ever since 1.6 came about I've yet to witness any of these "unkillable juggernauts of death". I've seen DKs in full heavy nirnhoned that could tank in small scale fights while putting out a good amount of DPS, but they died eventually. The only truly "unkillable" people I've seen have been those that simply stand there and block while spamming heals and shields, and from my point of view, if they want to do this then leave them be, they're not doing any damage. You've just gotta accept the fact that the counter to some builds is to simply leave them be, as the majority of the time their only source of damage is 1k shield bashes.

DDuke wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I dont even... this thread is about flame whip & concealed attack being undodgeable, not about how much physical resistance you need to survive a stealth burst (answer is: more than is possible, you cannot survive without blocking or a dmg shield), or how permablockers "deserve" to be "unkillable juggernauts of death" to several builds because "diversity.

It is not a sorc thread either.


Fact is, this is a video game and the better player should win. Not the player who happens to play X build of unkillable.
This is why skills need active counters, just like in every other MMO out there.

If you can't counter a certain build, then there is an issue with the balance.

Diversity is not about having "unkillable" builds vs "instagib" builds, it's about having multiple differing styles of gameplay be viable in PVP, without them being frustrating because someone got instagibbed, or because someone met the wrong build along the way to a keep and got whipped & charged to death without being able to do a thing about it.

I think what people are trying to tell you, is that though these builds may seem "unkillable" when faced with your build, they are in fact extremely killable when faced with someone elses build, just like how there is a build out there that would find it extremely hard to kill you.

The fact is that there are counters to whip/concealed weapon, but your build specifically doesn't seem to run said counters. Its the same thing with everything. There are counters to fear, but not everyone runs immovable. There are counters to stealth damage, but not everyone uses the morph of Mage Light. There are counters to DoTs but not everyone runs purge.

The fact is, the only way you can counter said skills is by stacking shields or blocking, increasing your Spell Reistance, increasing your fire resistance. You'd be surprised how effective these are as Lava Whip and Concealed weapon don't do much damage in the first place.

Ontop of this, ever since 1.6 came about I've yet to witness any of these "unkillable juggernauts of death". I've seen DKs in full heavy nirnhoned that could tank in small scale fights while putting out a good amount of DPS, but they died eventually. The only truly "unkillable" people I've seen have been those that simply stand there and block while spamming heals and shields, and from my point of view, if they want to do this then leave them be, they're not doing any damage. You've just gotta accept the fact that the counter to some builds is to simply leave them be, as the majority of the time their only source of damage is 1k shield bashes.

And what is the counter to whip/concealed, if I may ask? Besides running another permablocker build, since blocking is now the only way to counter them (note: you still take 50% dmg if playing a stamina build, and go out of stamina in approximately 5 seconds).

There are more counters to fear than immovable, e.g. break free (available to every class and every build) and there are also more counters to stealth, detection pots, AoE, mark, magelight etc (again, available to every class and every build) and there are counters to DoTs: dmg shields, purge, dark cloak, blocking (again, available to every class and every build)
Can you notice the theme here?

Stacking shields and blocking is not available to your typical Dual Wielding or Bow using Nightblade. You get zero passives towards blocking, meaning it's a bad idea (except when you are detected while sneaking). You get zero strength on that dmg shield (unless you play a templar) and it is very expensive.

And as mentioned numerous times, you can't leave someone alone who is constantly charging you, snaring you, dealing damage to you, preventing you from stealthing and doing anything without there being anything you can do about it until you die, or manage to make it safe into a keep or behind friendly players.

Such mode should only exist as an expensive ultimate, not something you gain by holding right mouse button.


But there's a whole another aspect to undodgeable concealed weapons, and this is the magicka damage focused builds.

The way you survive a stamina build that tries to gank you, is you break CC fast & roll dodge to avoid their burst.

It is the same against magicka NBs, except that you die when you roll dodge (undodgeable Concealed Weapon hits you for 8-10k) and you die if you try running away (undodgeable Teleport Strike hits you for 5k+).

pop a potion and hit back, Maybe use a class ablity (magicka)? you are aware you do have a magicka pool its small but your still meant to use it, maybe thats what your doing wrong.

in 1.5 shields were really powerful for magicka NB I could rely on shields alone (still can but not as much verse hard hitting) and survive lots of damage but since 1.6 this isnt the case yes its the same tools to survive but used diffrently, I need to roll more, Use shields wisely cloak when I can and most importantly not focus only on running (which gets lots of people killed)

People fail to realize when your hitting someone they arent gonna let you kill them they will stop and heal, which gives you time to heal.

Stamina builds have enough burst to do that on defense.

Just to make it clear yes you can counter and survive conceal weapon and lava whip, I have seen plenty do it.

frozywozy wrote: »

1) As people mentioned in this thread : Experience a magicka based character and see by yourself how easily you can kill ZERGBAD, Sypher Ali, Kerviz, ShadowStep, Sunshine, Xorus, Plesa, murdo and company.

I agree with your post but there's a difference between a ganking nightblade (Zergbad,Kervis,Sunshine,Plesa,murdo etc.) and the type of build I run. I won't go down easily to a mana build, the others might. So I wouldn't put my name in the same category as the gankers you listed.

Varicite wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you want concealed weapon/teleport strike/whip to avoid roll dodge, then there should be a way to counter these abilities as well (no, "escape" isn't a counter).

What are Nirnhoned, Harness Magicka, Eclipse, and dodge abilities, then?

Counters already do exist for these abilities. Just because most stamina builds are not going to be running Eclipse or Harness doesn't mean they don't exist, and dodge abilities are still a 20% counter to all single-target attacks even after Nirnhoned gets rightfully nerfed.

You can't dodge Whip / Concealed, neither with dodge nor with any dodge abilities.
Well you can let them miss one attack using cloak, but it's not like everyone got infinity Magicka for every single attack, also cloak isn't reliable.
Harness is useless as Stamina Build in terms of Shield strength and cost.
Eclipse is only available for one class.
Nirnhoned gets nerfed.

I'm not saying that dodge shouldn't have a viable counter, everything should've, but completely ignoring the only defense ability of a whole spec without any reliable counters, too much.
If I'd stop using nirn right now I get >8k incoming hits and can't do anything against it. It's not like mark already negates nirnhoned completely..

Wait for the next major patch

DDuke wrote: »

Magicka sorcs can't fight against everyone? Permablockers can't fight against everyone? How about Templars?

At the moment, stamina nightblade is the only class which has opponents it cannot fight against, because there is no chance of winning even if you are a significantly better player.

Choice of class & build should provide easy & tough match ups, but no automatic victories ensured by holding right mouse button, breaking CCs & spamming ability X.

I'm fine with some builds having very strong counters to certain playstyles (top 4th on my death recap, Radiant Destruction is a good example), as long as I know I could've won if I had played better, done something differently. This is not the case with Whip/Concealed Weapon/Teleport Strike.
There is nothing to learn from those fights, except that the game is utterly broken (which makes me question why I still even play it), and you accomplish nothing with this kind of mechanics, except frustrating the player base that plays stamina builds.

If you want counters, ones should be provided that despite being strong give atleast a fighting chance for your opponent and chance for him to succeed if he's skilled enough.


But hey, even if you disagree and think the game shouldn't ultimately be about your skill as a player... where are the free kills for stamina builds?

Magicka Builds - nope, just spam shields & survive. Good chance for fight to go either way.
Permablockers - nope, explained fairly well I hope.
Other Stamina Builds - 50/50

If there must be a mechanic making stamina builds' survival mechanic useless, then where are the skills that ignore block or dmg shield?

You should have those as well in that case, for it to truly be rock, paper & scissors as you claim.

You clearly do not play a magicka sorc, Templar, or what you like to call a "perma-blocker"...

Every build has its weaknesses. : /

I understand that the grass may seem greener on the other side, but you may want to slip your feet into the other guys' shoes before making silly statements like these.

PS) I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to pretend that I said anything even remotely close to not wanting the game to be skill-based. In every game, there are those skilled players who can defeat their counters by outplaying or out-predicting them, and ESO is absolutely no exception.