so now that conceal/Lava whip WONT go thru dodge.

Araxleon

How do we counter the infinite roll dodge builds? It will be almost impossible to kill some of them without this (Yes there were many other ways but that mainly meant outnumbering the roll dodger or using AOE)
Jabs also goes through roll dodge I hear, so does NB conceal and DK lava whip and last I heard (not 100% sure) sorc has a way to also go through dodge attacks but not as good as the other classes.

mixed with the fact that vigor will be alliance war 5 and can heal ALOT if you build it right (Which is you say vigor is a small heal you are wrong) only having AOES go through dodge will not be enough damage to kill them.

What do you guys think? Serious feedback...I honestly feel this will hurt PVP badly and this is a (PVP change) Stamina builds are already very very strong.

-If you honestly think this should be fixed please also provide the counter to kill stamina builds without using attacks that go through dodge-

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Sypher

Can we also delete the champion passive "unchained" before more people unlock it and stamina builds become Demi-Gods? - Current Stamina Nightblade, up and coming Demi-God.

Morvul

well, having lavawhip or concealed weapons go through dodge is pretty counter-intuitiv... so from that perspective I agree with the idea of "fixing" that.
However, from a balance point of view, I agree with the OP that "reliable" skills that bypass dodge are needed by every class - or perma dodging needs some serious nerf

iseko

Jesusbeam/radiant destruction?

Aenlir

As a stam nb without vigor and not using any nirnhoned, I still feel strong even against magicka nbs and dks. The issue for me is when there is multiple people on me spamming undodgeable skills, nearly killing me instantly. I don't like how it negates my only defense and only certain builds can do it. Because even as a stam build I fight other roll dodgers without much issues even though they can dodge my skills. Since a dodge is a dodge, it has to dodge skills but I think they should make sure all channels, dots, and especially ccs go through dodge so it is easier to stop a dodge roller in their tracks. For example, curse/detonation/fossilize/fear/jabs/jesus beam/soul strike work well to pressure a dodge roller. Also, as that probably wouldn't be enough, since they are moving vigor down in rank they could nerf it and maybe add in some new skills to counter roll dodge and shield stacking builds.

EdTerra

it's simple, be a stam player.

- take nirncrux for rekt all magicka build
- infinite rolldodge (and the passiv from CP scare me, srsly wtf zos ? I haven't see one player with it but just the description seem unbalanced, when stam player will reach this cp lvl it will be impossible to deal with them)
- insane damage and no counter for them.
- infinite cc breaker

the only one problem with stam build is this vigor who need alliance war lvl 10, this is a joke...

overall stam players rolldodge for nothing and now they cry cauz u kill him with teleport strike but seriously how are u supposed to deal with stam player if he dodge all skills ? this "fix" will be THE BIGGEST NERF for magicka NB/DK
the only one attack who will work vs them will be the heavy attack from resto staff, nice, thx zos...

Inb4 "holy *** jesus beam/heavy attack/soul assault still hit me when dodgeroll plz nerf"

Soulac

Sypher wrote: »

Can we also delete the champion passive "unchained" before more people unlock it and stamina builds become Demi-Gods? - Current Stamina Nightblade, up and coming Demi-God.

Well it reduces skill cost only and that for 3 seconds, but no stamina builds runs out of stamina while using skills only.
The passive is good, but is it that good?

frozywozy

I can only assume that ZOS has big plans to nerf dodge rolling .... after console release. Otherwise this fix is a waste of time and a total disaster.

Araxleon

Sypher wrote: »

Can we also delete the champion passive "unchained" before more people unlock it and stamina builds become Demi-Gods? - Current Stamina Nightblade, up and coming Demi-God.

Good point, The demi-gods are coming, Magicka builds with fall...nirn is the least of our worries.

God...Cyrodill is gonna end up like mordor full of death and decay.

I expect to see some people completely naked, just rolling forever if this passes

Araxleon

Vigor I had no issue with overall (But I have seen some people get crazy healing with it but I assume magicka builds can do the same so im 50/50 on it but if its alliance rank 5 it prob needs a nerf)

Without skills going through dodge we can NOT KILL stamina rollers, AOE attacks arent gonna be enough damage vigor nerfed or not probably.

I hope zenimax reads this and honestly thinks about this decision.

Vigor + momentum (as an example) + roll dodging with massive amounts of stam recovery.

Now do the math on how much damage a single AOE does, and how much you will be healing...

Im fine with you making this change if it comes along with a patch to balance rolling to not make people untouchable.

Swannkyy

I feel like dodge should progressively cost more after every roll within 2 seconds ish, or make dodging an X% chance to dodge the attack or something. Something needs to be done, infinite dodging is ridiculous.

olemanwinter

All you need is another stamina NB to chase him down.

As long as the cost of rolldodge is greater than the cost of the ability I'm trying to hit him with....it's just delaying the inevitable.

I just give chase + detect pot = Dead rolldodger.

Araxleon

olemanwinter wrote: »

All you need is another stamina NB to chase him down.

As long as the cost of rolldodge is greater than the cost of the ability I'm trying to hit him with....it's just delaying the inevitable.

I just give chase + detect pot = Dead rolldodger.

so demi-god vs demi-god lol.

Thats fair.

Soulac

Araxleon wrote: »

Vigor I had no issue with overall (But I have seen some people get crazy healing with it but I assume magicka builds can do the same so im 50/50 on it but if its alliance rank 5 it prob needs a nerf)

Without skills going through dodge we can NOT KILL stamina rollers, AOE attacks arent gonna be enough damage vigor nerfed or not probably.

I hope zenimax reads this and honestly thinks about this decision.

Vigor + momentum (as an example) + roll dodging with massive amounts of stam recovery.

Now do the math on how much damage a single AOE does, and how much you will be healing...

Im fine with you making this change if it comes along with a patch to balance rolling to not make people untouchable.

Actually you're able to hit people while dodging, just use animation cancel and time it a bit.
Since then I don't got any problems against dodging NBs, Magicka NBs with their 7k+ Concealed were a bigger threat.
I know it's not a solution to perm dodging and I don't like the whole system of spamming everything like dodge or shields either, but perm dodging people are not immortal or something.

In my opinion they should rather reduce dmg taken against concealed / whip while dodging than make it completely dodge able.
I mean u need a way to defend yourself against concealed / whip, but completely take away their advantage is not the right way.

Etaniel

It felt natural that some dmg went through dodge, just like it doesn't feel absurd that some cc go through block

Sypher

Soulac wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sypher wrote: »

Can we also delete the champion passive "unchained" before more people unlock it and stamina builds become Demi-Gods? - Current Stamina Nightblade, up and coming Demi-God.

Well it reduces skill cost only and that for 3 seconds, but no stamina builds runs out of stamina while using skills only.
The passive is good, but is it that good?

Whichever way you look at it, whether it's a small buff or big buff. You're essentially buffing a very powerful play style. This isn't the only powerful play style, but it's one of the top and doesn't need any more help.

Tankqull

Sypher wrote: »

show previous quotes

Soulac wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Can we also delete the champion passive "unchained" before more people unlock it and stamina builds become Demi-Gods? - Current Stamina Nightblade, up and coming Demi-God.

Well it reduces skill cost only and that for 3 seconds, but no stamina builds runs out of stamina while using skills only.
The passive is good, but is it that good?

Whichever way you look at it, whether it's a small buff or big buff. You're essentially buffing a very powerful play style. This isn't the only powerful play style, but it's one of the top and doesn't need any more help.

this and not mentioning "tactican" wich is from another star in terms of buffing rolldodging...

Iyas

Sry, i miss it. Where is something official about whip not going through dodge?

Tankqull

Iyas wrote: »

Sry, i miss it. Where is something official about whip not going through dodge?

last fridays eso live

DDuke

As @Soulac mentioned, there are ways of hitting roll dodging targets with good timing (a period of vulnerability exists after a dodge roll).

That said, I'd be fine with them increasing the duration of that vulnerability. What this essentially means is lengthening the cooldown of dodge roll. This would actually make it a reactive defense, rather than proactive one (as I think was intended in the first place).

Alternatively, if you really must have Concealed Weapon/Lava Whip etc to go through dodge roll, then make stamina based melee attacks also do so as well.

It makes no sense that magicka builds have an unfair edge against stamina builds, thanks to the dodge roll (yes, you can get tons of stamina regen & dodge roll as magicka build as well and do so while having 10k+ worth of uncrittable shields up).

Ryuho

Tankqull wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iyas wrote: »

Sry, i miss it. Where is something official about whip not going through dodge?

last fridays eso live

WTB LOL!

Whip, conceled/jesus and other similar skills should stay as they are.. Nirn perma dodger freak is the worst possible encounter for any magicka build..

Soulac

Ryuho wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tankqull wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Sry, i miss it. Where is something official about whip not going through dodge?

last fridays eso live

WTB LOL!

Whip, conceled/jesus and other similar skills should stay as they are.. Nirn perma dodger freak is the worst possible encounter for any magicka build..

It will happen in the same update as the nirn nerf and other balance stuff.
Let's wait..

Xsorus

While I don't think it should be changed, it's pointless to discuss it right now because we don't know other changes, then again last time I brought up an ability that made no sense, twin slashes dot not applying to someone blocking, I used venom arrow as an example of dots that ignored block, ZoS turned around and was like "on venom arrow should be block able as well" even though no other dots in the game work that way when the target is blocking, and even if you assumed it was just ya know bleeds, venom arrow isn't a bleed

eliisra

Ryuho wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tankqull wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Sry, i miss it. Where is something official about whip not going through dodge?

last fridays eso live

WTB LOL!

Whip, conceled/jesus and other similar skills should stay as they are.. Nirn perma dodger freak is the worst possible encounter for any magicka build..

Making it sound like they're changing it next Monday. I very much doubt that, this seems to be one if those "next major patch things". Meaning there be 100 other game breaking bugs and changes to combat/balance anyway. Not hitting through dodge, will most likely not be the most frustrating thing.

Usually like this, some future change is presented, players freak out because not enough information. Than when beta opens and we get 60 pages of partly inaccurate patch notes, there's a completely different thing that *** up the game and creates imbalance and some ridiculous meta build, that naturally moves over to live.

That's what I'm worried about, the terrifying unknown. Not old stuff being addressed.

Oughash

Xsorus wrote: »

While I don't think it should be changed, it's pointless to discuss it right now because we don't know other changes, then again last time I brought up an ability that made no sense, twin slashes dot not applying to someone blocking, I used venom arrow as an example of dots that ignored block, ZoS turned around and was like "on venom arrow should be block able as well" even though no other dots in the game work that way when the target is blocking, and even if you assumed it was just ya know bleeds, venom arrow isn't a bleed

Agreed with Xsorus, let's wait and see what the total set of balance changes are.

IxSTALKERxI

I think there is a limit to how much you can dodge. I tried to dodge a zerg the other day and my character ended up standing on the spot stuck in the dodge animation unable to use abilities. But yeah other then that dodge is OP.

Rust_in_Peace

Nirn is going to get nerfed eventually, and so will damage shields. Soon the time to kill will be even shorter. This is what you guys asked for.

Maulkin

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

Nirn is going to get nerfed eventually, and so will damage shields. Soon the time to kill will be even shorter. This is what you guys asked for.

Not really. Yes we asked for nerfs to nirn, dodge and wards but we also asked at least for more HP and ideally some softcaps to be brought back. Delivering on one side only and claiming "this is what YOU wanted" is ridiculous.

Varicite

As a predominately stamina-based player (of course, I have my beloved magicka builds as well) since Early Access.... this is too much. Let Magicka builds at least be able to damage stam builds.

Yes, I know magicka was god for over a year, but geez... the pendulum doesn't need to swing SO FAR the other way.

OdinForge

There are other ways to kill dodge rollers, i don't have a single attack that can hit through dodge. If a stamina user is going to dodge away from me i find another target. When he wants to seriously try and kill me he will he to leave himself open, when he gets some attacks in i block->incapacitating strike for the knockdown. Abilities like petrify and agony hit through dodge, and either force the person to eat damage or CC break.

The best stamina users will either put all their focus into dodging and escape or offense. Contrary to popular belief, people aren't throwing out full DPS while also roll dodging, they're setting up well timed burst in a game where TTK is at an all time low. Even the best stamina users have to leave themselves open to me in a fight.

Magicka DK is becoming popular again, but IMHO way more deadly now when used with heavy armor. The ability for them to tank with block, while also throwing out high damaging whips that cannot be dodged is insane.

Them lowering the requirement for vigor was a mistake.

Mumyo

Araxleon wrote: »

How do we counter the infinite roll dodge builds? It will be almost impossible to kill some of them without this (Yes there were many other ways but that mainly meant outnumbered the roll dodger or using AOE)
Jabs also goes through roll dodge I hear, so does NB conceal and DK lava whip and last I heard (not 100% sure) sorc has a way to also go through dodge attacks but not as good as the other classes.

mixed with the fact that vigor will be alliance war 15 and can heal ALOT if you build it right (Which is you say vigor is a small heal you are wrong) only having AOES go through dodge will not be enough damage to kill them.

What do you guys think? Serious feedback...I honestly feel this will hurt PVP badly and this is a (PVP change) Stamina builds are already very very strong.

-If you honestly think this should be fixed please also provide the counter to kill stamina builds without using attacks that go through dodge-

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Jabs do not go through dodge.