so now that conceal/Lava whip WONT go thru dodge.

Knootewoot · June 2015

Throw down Caltrops. Stamina = gone = semi-perma dodge roll. (once they catch breath they still get away)

PvP is almost dead now. thorn has most players and even then it's low. going to play ARK and slay some dino's and other players.

Araxleon · June 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

Throw down Caltrops. Stamina = gone = semi-perma dodge roll. (once they catch breath they still get away)

PvP is almost dead now. thorn has most players and even then it's low. going to play ARK and slay some dino's and other players.

ARK

Domander · June 2015

Heh, it would be funny if dodge roll on caltrops did more damage. I mean, rolling on spikes..

saintmurray · June 2015

Yeah I'm quite close to being done with this game over a year and it gets worse by the patch..

R0M2K · June 2015

So rolling needs a fix but, perma-block-and-casting or shield stacking is OK?

QQ

Mjollo · June 2015

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

DDuke · June 2015

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

Araxleon · June 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

Araxleon · June 2015

R0M2K wrote: »

So rolling needs a fix but, perma-block-and-casting or shield stacking is OK?

QQ

Those threads how beeing out since day one, Yes we want that change I think zenimax gets the point, The point of this thread is to stop the boat from sinking deeper.

I hope they fix that one day too... Because thats a big factor

DDuke · June 2015

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?

Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

Mjollo · June 2015

Um, if you're a stamina build shouldn't you have enough stamina to block? CC us. We are magicka after all meaning we only get 3 roll dodges until our resource depletes. so block, CC, continue wrecking. That is how the pros do it and that's how I die. I'm sorry if you're built to be a glass cannon but how are you going to complain if you're not built to survive outside of a zerg anyways?

frozywozy · June 2015

lol I can't believe someone is actually trying to make people realize that concealed and whip should not go through dodge roll. Are you serious? dodge roll and shield stacking is the most obvious way to get perma invicibility with the way the game handle ressource management + offense + defense. The problem is where both magicka and stamina builds can go with very high regen, very high damage and very high defense at the same time. They need find ways to separate them from each other. The more magicka/stamina and magicka/stamina regen you have, the longest you can keep reapplying those very strong shields or dodge rolling and increasing your damage at the same time. My suggestion has been the following for ages but there are plenty of other way to totally separate all 3 from each other :

1) Stamina builds : See my signature - We could have gear bonuses, enchants and champion points to increase the recovery of that fourth ressource bar and the stamina user would have to pick between dodge rolling more by increasing the regen of that 4th bar (tank) or increasing his stamina pool to hit harder (dps) or stamina regen to last longer (hybrid).

So in other words, that makes 3 stats to increase : fourth ressource bar regen (more defense), stamina pool (more dps) and stamina regen (hybrid).

I would also suggest to increase the 20% of evasion to 30% and make it last 10-12 seconds instead of 20.

2) Magicka builds : Make all shields abilities very weak but give a chance to people who wanna increase their strength to go either for gear bonuses or spend champion points. This way it penalizes their damage or ressource management if they put everything into better shields to defend themselves (tank). They would be super hard to kill for a while until they get out of magicka because of their poor ressource management. Or they could last longer by getting more magicka regen (hybrid) but this way it would be easier to burst them down because they would have invested less points in increasing the strength of those shields so they would have to be careful and reapply them quickly. Or they could get more magicka to deal more damage (dps).

In other words, 3 stats to increase : shield strength (more defense), magicka pool (more dps), magicka regen (hybrid).

Light Armor pieces could also come with bonuses which increase shield strength.

U see where I'm going?

About the topic, I don't think that whip and concealed change anything to real stamina users. Rally and Vigor is way too strong at the moment to put any dodge roller in danger. Once Nirnhode gets fixed, we will see but with the state of the game right now, it is ridiculously easy for a stamina user to counter whip or conceal spam through dodge roll.

After this fix, I won't even bother attacking them. I will just get away and continue my journey.

Ernest145 · June 2015

I don't mind people holding block forever but when they can block cast undodgeable flame lashes and i can't cc them unless I'm a nb with fear makes them unbeatable. Tbh you don't take much damage while blocking also at least in a 1v1 scenario and you have gdb to save you. Yes, there SHOULD be counters to dodge rollers but concealed weapon and flame lash was just dumb because you can just cap close and spam them if a stam build is trying to escape.

Ernest145 · June 2015

Also, imo block casting is pretty stupid because you can mitigate so much damage while also spamming 5k flame lashes.

frozywozy · June 2015

Ernest145 wrote: »

I don't mind people holding block forever but when they can block cast undodgeable flame lashes and i can't cc them unless I'm a nb with fear makes them unbeatable. Tbh you don't take much damage while blocking also at least in a 1v1 scenario and you have gdb to save you. Yes, there SHOULD be counters to dodge rollers but concealed weapon and flame lash was just dumb because you can just cap close and spam them if a stam build is trying to escape.

Try fossilize or mines or blazing spears ?

Araxleon · June 2015

Stamina builds just want more power the phrase *git gud* actually means something here haha

you can already improve and make your stamina builds with great sustain and damage and be powerful overall stamina builds KICKASS right now even though all these things exist, making it so they can dodge roll everything well that basically means they get even stronger then they already are.

Domander · June 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

Everybody should block at some point, everyone should dodge sometimes too, I wonder if those who complain about block are ones that never ever ever use it, even when they should.

Vizier · June 2015

what's worse? Perma - dodge or Perma-shields? Hmmm.... difficult to say this is.

Araxleon · June 2015

Vizier wrote: »

what's worse? Perma - dodge or Perma-shields? Hmmm.... difficult to say this is.

Currently? Shields are more powerful than perma rolling, If they make dodge, dodge all attacks like they said they might do. Perma roll dodging will be better

DDuke · June 2015

Domander wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

Everybody should block at some point, everyone should dodge sometimes too, I wonder if those who complain about block are ones that never ever ever use it, even when they should.

Of course I do block sometimes.

Is it my primary form of defense? No.
Should it be? Of course not, I'm not playing this game to play a bloody tank, and I'd be out of stamina in 5 seconds if I tried that.

If you want Concealed Weapon/Whip to ignore roll dodge (stamina builds' primary form of defense), then make my Surprise Attacks ignore block (permablockers primary form of defense). Permablockers can always roll dodge, cant they?

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2015

Blocking is fine because you're not completely immune to damage. However, with dodge rolling you avoid damage completely. ZOS needs to find a balance bewteen the two and not make one superior to the other...

Soris · June 2015

There is already ignore block mechanism once in 5 seconds. And that is called Fear, Fossilise, Luminous Spear just saying in case you forget.
So Fear+Surpise Attack/whatever will work for you perhaps. It's enough to kill someone nowadays.

Though I think ignore dodge mechanism is silly but infinite dodge rolling is sillier. If one needs a fix, then the other one too to balance things.

DDuke · June 2015

Soris wrote: »

There is already ignore block mechanism once in 5 seconds. And that is called Fear, Fossilise, Luminous Spear just saying in case you forget.
So Fear+Surpise Attack/whatever will work for you perhaps. It's enough to kill someone nowadays.

Though I think ignore dodge mechanism is silly but infinite dodge rolling is sillier. If one needs a fix, then the other one too to balance things.

No, it isn't.

Fear gives you a 1.3 second cooldown after use, meaning you are not killing anyone that knows how to react. More often than not, fear results simply in a small stamina drain on your opponent, and the loss of 1/3rd of your magicka (if playing a stamina NB).

The only people you kill with fear are outnumbered targets (who get hit by other peoples' attacks while feared), and people with very, very slow reaction times (yes, there are quite a few).

I'm with you though, infinite roll dodging is silly and an elegant solution should be found.

Ernest145 · June 2015

All I'm saying is that yes infinite dodge rolling is dumb and yes there should be counters to it, but flame lash and CW counter dodge rolling too much if that makes sense. Again I'm all for countering dodge rollers but not the way whips and cw can, both are spammable and hit for at least 5k.

Soris · June 2015

1.3 sec CD for GCD or for recast? I dont think so man. It usually pretty fast for a follow-up attack after being feared. Note that, fear animation have a delay for the victim since 1.6. You maybe confuse these 2 things?

DDuke · June 2015

Soris wrote: »

1.3 sec CD for GCD or for recast? I dont think so man. It usually pretty fast for a follow-up attack after being feared. Note that, fear animation have a delay for the victim since 1.6. You maybe confuse these 2 things?

There is a 1,3 second GCD after any instant cast skill. This is the reason you cannot dish out Surprise Attacks every 0,1 seconds for instance. If a skill has 1 second cast time, there is only 0,3 seconds of cooldown before next skill can be used (which is why WW fear for instance is much better than NB one).

There are plenty of players who break it fast enough, so that you aren't able to deal any real damage.

OdinForge · June 2015

I've said it before and no one cares, the real culprit here is bow and nirn. I feel like a god when i switch my NB to 2H/Bow FoTM, but when i use any other combination of weapons life is hard.

The real secret to success is the movement speed stack, which you only get from running bow. The passive that stacks with several class skill speed buffs that allows you to bolt around the world. "Permadodging" relies heavily on this movement speed, if you take the same person and regens and take away bow it becomes much more difficult to stay alive.

That's because with bow off-hand you can get huge distance gaps, allow your resources some downtime and re-position yourself to attack without pressure. It's so easy to do this running a spec like 2H/Bow, to the point where i feel like a totally different player when i play this. There is a reason virtually every NB and other classes choose to run 2H/Bow.

When I'm 2H/1H or 2H/DW, i cannot get that distance anywhere near as easily.

It's not roll dodge, it's bow and nirn. People see a stamina player running 2H/Bow, and they don't even understand how the mechanics are working. They just assume every stamina spec is created equal. Take away the speed stack from bow and get rid of nirn, stamina players will become much easier to kill regardless of their regen.

Erondil · June 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?

Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast

This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

DDuke · June 2015

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Defialed wrote: »

Concealed is the easiest thing to counter but of course everyone who runs stam builds complains that it's "OP". Seriously? I'm tired of hearing people fail to counter Concealed. let me give a hint: instead of roll dodging how about you try blocking? I hit for 9-10k crit concealeds atm but when someone blocks they hit for 2k. Instantly shut down.

Oh, so I should start blocking without any set bonuses or passives towards blocking, and somehow try to "outsustain" the person who is throwing those Concealeds or Whips from behind block (having built for blocking infinitely), being virtually unkillable to you?

Can you come up with another brilliant idea please?

you have speed bonuses, large part is getting away and making space.

I have fought good stam builds that instead of QQing on forums about undodgable skills they learn to outrun it or maneuver it. Remember its a melee range magicka attack.

You try to outrun these builds, you get hit by gap closers (Ambush, Crit Charge, Shielded Assault etc), some of which also bypass dodge roll.
Stamina builds do not have any bonus speed compared to other builds, unless you mean the sprint speed increase from medium armour (too bad sprinting equals suicide in PvP, when you're in range of your opponent).

Also, any kind of snare quickly ends any hope of escaping these "hold block & spam whip/concealed" builds.
Why you should be forced to escape in the first place is beyond me.

Thing is, there being builds that force you to escape since you can't kill them is something that makes instagibbing all the more prevalent. When you can't beat an opponent in a "fair" fight, you are forced to take them down before any "fair" fight can happen. This creates more & more problems for the whole balance of the game.

Is there something wrong with spamming roll dodge forever? Yes.

Should it be fixed by undodgeable attacks, to which the only counterplay is to "run away"? No.

As mentioned previously in this thread, there are other counters to roll dodge which are perfectly fine:

Jesus Beam - interruptable, cloakable
Curse - block or cloak when it goes off
Soul Assault - cloak/cleanse/interrupt
Lightning/Resto Heavy Attacks - cant be done while blocking, meaning vulnerable opponent as well
Sorc Pet - kill it

...and then we have:

Whip/Concealed Weapon - run away & try not to die while opponent is spamming them from behind block?

Having those skills bypass roll dodge is pretty much the same as if my Surprise Attacks bypassed block.

L2p with dots, shadow image or caltrop and fear every 6 secs and you will drop stamina of most of the "permablockers" pretty fast
This wont work on only few players, and those wont have high damages due to all the sacrificies they made. Then undodgeable whip are easily outhealed with rally and/or vigor. If you dont want to play with heals then deal with it.

OR there is the *** way, the dduke way as I like to call it. Stack 4.3k wep damages and try to instagibb. Then dont cry if you cant sustain a fight.

"Pretty fast", as in after 15-20 minutes? There are people tanking 10+ at the same time, you aren't going to drop the stamina of a permablocker (who knows what he's doing) alone "pretty fast".

Also, while this may be surprising to you, I should probably let you know that not everyone likes playing a FOTM sustain rollerblade stacking heals & rolling forever.

Should these builds be substandard in 1v1 fights, and only be suitable for instagibbing opponents? No, I do not think so.

If the only answer to a sustain build is another sustain build (or instagib), then something is wrong with the game balance and you'd be a fool to argue otherwise.

That said, even the FOTM rollerblades run into problems against permablockers (the ones that know how to break free), due to the undodgeable whips/concealeds/teleport strikes which mean your already low DPS is even lower since you have to reapply vigor & rally all the time while hitting your opponent for 10 damage through his block.

I'd like you to find me one stamina nightblade that has zero problems whatsoever against a permablock concealed/whip spammer. Or better yet, play one yourself so you'd atleast know what you're talking about.

Varicite · June 2015

This is pretty much how metas work. Counters to counters to counters.

I honestly don't think this change should go live. Instead, give us a couple shield-busting abilities and let the meta balance itself out.

Also, fix nirnhoned and raise everyone's health and defenses slightly overall.