Are Vet Dungeons Overtuned?

Dragnelus · April 2015

Lukefus wrote: »

Rhaenir wrote: »

Break free for the last boss, the shadows fear you on the big dragon demon. I have 17.5k HP so I guess that's a bit on the low side.

Yeah, I feel like 20-23k is a good place to be. Also, being a vampire in Elden Hollow's Bogdan is, well... Lets say you better have fire resist

I did it as a vr 3 it was scaled to vr2. I only have 1 fire res ring the fight wasnt a big deal. Im a dk healer btw

bellanca6561n · April 2015

I'm trying to understand something here.

Clearly this topic was started by someone having trouble and experiencing the same with other people.

This is neither the occasion nor the venue to boast or to complain about easy dungeons are for you.

But I really don't think anyone is trying to punish the author of this topic. It just comes out every time this topic comes up. Two or three helpful posts and the bickering begins.

Remember, everything is obvious when known.

This person is asking for help. Be helpful. That will demonstrate better than anything just how accomplished you are.

s7732425ub17_ESO · April 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

This game's Vet dungeons are perfect. They are easy for great players, average for good players, tough for mediocre players, and impossible for bad players. If they are anything but easy for you, then you need to work on getting better as a player, not sit around wishing they were nerfed.

This is spot on. Spot on.

Glurin · April 2015

I think they might be somewhat "overtuned". Now, I've just started getting back into dungeons again after coming back, so I'm a bit rusty at it and my build definitely needs some work, (the undaunted passives would certainly help if I could ever get them.

) but even so the vet versions do seem a whole lot more difficult to me than they aught to be.

For example, yesterday I was in one supposedly scaled to v3 with two v14s and myself around v6. One might expect with those levels that it should go relatively smoothly, but we never finished. Replaced people twice, with some commenting that they'd already made several attempts that day without success.

Today's experience was even worse.

Yes vet dungeons should be difficult. I get that. I'm not saying they need to be loot vending machines that you can complete by rolling your face on the keyboard. But something still seems off about the difficulty here. If I were forced to make a guess at it, I'd say it's as if they aren't actually scaling down at all outside of the loot tables. That's what it feels like anyway.

Evandus · April 2015

Glurin wrote: »

I think they might be somewhat "overtuned". Now, I've just started getting back into dungeons again after coming back, so I'm a bit rusty at it and my build definitely needs some work, (the undaunted passives would certainly help if I could ever get them. ) but even so the vet versions do seem a whole lot more difficult to me than they aught to be.

For example, yesterday I was in one supposedly scaled to v3 with two v14s and myself around v6. One might expect with those levels that it should go relatively smoothly, but we never finished. Replaced people twice, with some commenting that they'd already made several attempts that day without success.

Today's experience was even worse.

Yes vet dungeons should be difficult. I get that. I'm not saying they need to be loot vending machines that you can complete by rolling your face on the keyboard. But something still seems off about the difficulty here. If I were forced to make a guess at it, I'd say it's as if they aren't actually scaling down at all outside of the loot tables. That's what it feels like anyway.

I think it has a lot to do with spell damage with the softcaps lifted now. That, and the lowering of spell resistance for characters in primarily light armor. Which is weird...

My pyro dk dropped vamp and was still getting hit for large amounts of damage from basic staff attacks from the boss in Crypt of Hearts. Originally, I just figured it was a vamp issue on that character. But it isn't. It's overall loss of spell resistance imo.

Seems SR (Spell Resistance) was taken away from light armor and given to heavy armor. Medium gets a good amount as well. And despite the arguments for or against this decision, that feels counter intuitive to me.

Dragnelus · April 2015

Glurin wrote: »

I think they might be somewhat "overtuned". Now, I've just started getting back into dungeons again after coming back, so I'm a bit rusty at it and my build definitely needs some work, (the undaunted passives would certainly help if I could ever get them. ) but even so the vet versions do seem a whole lot more difficult to me than they aught to be.

For example, yesterday I was in one supposedly scaled to v3 with two v14s and myself around v6. One might expect with those levels that it should go relatively smoothly, but we never finished. Replaced people twice, with some commenting that they'd already made several attempts that day without success.

Today's experience was even worse.

Yes vet dungeons should be difficult. I get that. I'm not saying they need to be loot vending machines that you can complete by rolling your face on the keyboard. But something still seems off about the difficulty here. If I were forced to make a guess at it, I'd say it's as if they aren't actually scaling down at all outside of the loot tables. That's what it feels like anyway.

Did also the gold pledge vet dungeon yesterday. Also with some vr 14 and im a vr 4. It was a faceroll. We just walked over all the mobs and bosses. Only when we are the same lvl all its interesting but not hard tho. I hope trails will be fun at lvl 14!

Vraneon · April 2015

I would say they became easier overall. For example we did wayrest veteran with 3 people and it was pretty easy.
The thing is a lot of values changed like health, armour, spell resistance and damage. After 1.6 I had to regear properly and as dps you get now a lot more dmg especially as a light armour user. So you should get some heavy armour piece or a skill which will buff you about 4-5k in armour and spell resistance. I'd say everything dies faster now including the players ^^.

Glurin · April 2015

So I notice all the people here waving their e-peen saying vet dungeons are easy and even some saying they should be harder. Not uncommon. See it all the time on other forums as well. But the thing I want to make note of is that generally these people, especially the ones saying make them harder, have already gone through the dungeons many times and have most of the drops and and other top quality gear that you have to run the dungeons to get.

See, the overall point of running the dungeons is to get the kind of gear that makes running the dungeons easier. Thus balancing the dungeons around characters that already have the gear just makes it impossibly difficult to get the gear in the first place. Not to mention the experience from running said dungeons enough times to get the gear. It reminds me of all the times I've seen people spamming the chat looking for group or raid members and requiring that they have a full, perfect set of the drops/gear and a min/maxed FotM build with perfect rotation just to get an invite. Usually they come with some shady external loot roll system as well, but that at least isn't an issue here.

Anyway, this is just a general observation spanning many titles. Not just ESO. People don't seem to take into account that things like dungeons need to be balanced for progression. Not just challenging the min/maxers who have already acquired the best gear and mastered what the math geeks say is the best build and rotation (that week).

cote-bmsb16_ESO · April 2015

No! They actually nerf'd a lot of content, it was much harder before. But now its super easy for the v14s who've been v14 for months.

Shunravi · April 2015

Glurin wrote: »

So I notice all the people here waving their e-peen saying vet dungeons are easy and even some saying they should be harder. Not uncommon. See it all the time on other forums as well. But the thing I want to make note of is that generally these people, especially the ones saying make them harder, have already gone through the dungeons many times and have most of the drops and and other top quality gear that you have to run the dungeons to get.

See, the overall point of running the dungeons is to get the kind of gear that makes running the dungeons easier. Thus balancing the dungeons around characters that already have the gear just makes it impossibly difficult to get the gear in the first place. Not to mention the experience from running said dungeons enough times to get the gear. It reminds me of all the times I've seen people spamming the chat looking for group or raid members and requiring that they have a full, perfect set of the drops/gear and a min/maxed FotM build with perfect rotation just to get an invite. Usually they come with some shady external loot roll system as well, but that at least isn't an issue here.

Anyway, this is just a general observation spanning many titles. Not just ESO. People don't seem to take into account that things like dungeons need to be balanced for progression. Not just challenging the min/maxers who have already acquired the best gear and mastered what the math geeks say is the best build and rotation (that week).

Experience, yes.
Drops, no.

I'm using mostly crafted sets atm. (Hundings Rage is usually always pretty good, and ashen grip can round it out for stam dps. There can be some pretty cheap jewelry sets in vendors that can help your build too.) And other sets like the much in demand Martial Knowledge are world drops, not dungeon drops. You can very easily get gear through crafting that is more than viable. And there are plenty of sets that drop outside dungeons that you can round your build out with.

Now, if you are AD/NA, and you don't mind running with a player like me who thinks they are too easy, I would love to do a run with you

Paradox · April 2015

Honestly, I've never found a dungeon to be difficult.... A group of four of us, mainly PvPers, cleared DSA at VET 2 (DSA is a Vet 14-scaled instance).

It really all comes down to knowing the mechanics, which for some players can take a bit of time... and with a four player group, one player really can screw the entire group over -- if they don't pull their own weight.

So, just run some groups, try to get friendly with the good players that you find throughout the journey and try to group with them exclusively.... I totally lucked out with the group of friends that I made, but that doesn't mean that other players can't find equal success.

TL;DR: No, they're not. Learn the mechanics and play with good players that know the mechanics.

Glurin · April 2015

*Looks at today's patch notes for Spawn of Mephala*

Well, that explains a lot.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Yea, mephala got nerfed

Shunravi · April 2015

Poor spider-thing.

eserras7b16_ESO · April 2015

They're too easy. In my opinion that is! You can do normal dungeons if you find em difficult, there's plenty of those and all scalable ^^

Merlin13KAGL · April 2015

Glurin wrote: »

*Looks at today's patch notes for Spawn of Mephala*

Well, that explains a lot.

@Glurin , if it was Mephala that was kickin' the crap out of your group, don't feel bad for one minute!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162399/mephalia-seems-to-be-the-new-praxin

Magdalina · May 2015

I think issue is veteran dungeons have to cater to a wide variety of players. They're next step for players who just achieved v1(or v12 but perhaps haven't done any group content during leveling at all), they're daily quests for hardcore players that have run them 100500 times. They're currently tuned somewhere in between those 2 categories, which doesn't really satisfy either but oh well, gotta settle for compromises:P

Maybe they should introduce 3rd difficulty tier, Nightmare dungeons or something. Veteran dungeons in 1.5 were alright for good groups, now they're downright boring for those same groups. 2 manned v12 COH the other day, and I remember how crazy hard that dungeon was when it first came out.

As it is now, if you're having difficulties with vet dungeons, you have to remember they're like endgame. So when you practice your rotation, find the perfect sets and learn the mechanics they will still be same dungeons, except you'll be able to blast through them with no second thoughts. Now if they were even easier, what would be there to do once you get better? Look at this as at opporunity to learn your class and role, find out what elements you're missing to be successful in a group. And just overcome a fun challenge.
Far as Undaunted skill line goes, Undaunted are, like, people that run dungeons. It makes sense that skill tree gets raised by running said dungeons, just as Alliance War skill tree gets raised by PvPing. And as has been said, if it's silver key you're after, you get that for completing normal pledges with doing all optional bosses which is pretty simple even with a pug.

Yinmaigao · May 2015

I think this thread speaks volumes about the state of the game.

With no ability to inspect or "evaluate" other players, it is very difficult to trust a pug, or to hey your friends to trust one either. Therfore, the "skilled" players (i.e. people who have run the dungeon a lot) tend to gravitate towards one another, blocking out any "play how you want" players which further segregate's them.

It is true that the vet pledges are pretty easy if you mix/max and know what your ate doing, but once you find a good group, people stick with it and don't want to take the risk of bringing someone along and assume that level of risk.

Glurin · May 2015

Yinmaigao wrote: »

I think this thread speaks volumes about the state of the game.

With no ability to inspect or "evaluate" other players, it is very difficult to trust a pug, or to hey your friends to trust one either. Therfore, the "skilled" players (i.e. people who have run the dungeon a lot) tend to gravitate towards one another, blocking out any "play how you want" players which further segregate's them.

It is true that the vet pledges are pretty easy if you mix/max and know what your ate doing, but once you find a good group, people stick with it and don't want to take the risk of bringing someone along and assume that level of risk.

Unfortunately the ability to inspect or evaluate other players would only make the PUG situation even worse. I'd rather not see the LFG spam flooded with ridiculously high requirements like "LFM vet pledge gold run. Must have all v14 legendary gear with gs 500+. You will be inspected before joining."

Got anything but a fire staff on you? Gone. Not wearing fotm armor? Kicked. Don't have Pauldrons of the Buick? Invite rescinded.

GilGalad · May 2015

I don't understand all these threads about the dungeon difficulty.if you are doing it right and have some training you can do the veteran dungeons with 3 ppl. Some are even able to finish with two ppl or solo (e.g. Elden hollow). If you are not able to do it watch some videos, test new gear, skills and rotations. Improving your medium attack weaving will increase your DPS pretty easy. If you are the healer try to do damage when you don't need to heal (if you have a good tank you don't have to heal a lot). As a tank make sure to taunt every hard hitting mob (2H guys, Shildbashing ones, Trolls, Flesh attros), and try to use the melee taunt on bosses for the armour debuff. Regeneration bufffood will help a lot while tanking (mag and stam). 18k live as a DPS or Healer is fine. A tank should have 20k+ but the regeneration is more important than maxlife (our tank has 19k health for vet DSA).

If you need some inspiration you can watch this video of som guild mates and me doing COH:

http://youtu.be/QW9gid7AJBs

Our communication is in German, but it's not important if you don't understand it. You could do the same with a different group setup but we had fun just taking DKs.

I hope that helps a bit to make these dungeons easier for you!

Greetings
Gil-Galad

Glurin · May 2015

Gil.Galad wrote: »

I don't understand all these threads about the dungeon difficulty.if you are doing it right and have some training you can do the veteran dungeons with 3 ppl. Some are even able to finish with two ppl or solo (e.g. Elden hollow). If you are not able to do it watch some videos, test new gear, skills and rotations. Improving your medium attack weaving will increase your DPS pretty easy.

Well, see, that's where things get interesting.

99% of the time when there is a problem, it is in fact not directly DPS related. IMO, super high DPS only serves to mask the underlying problems of the player or group. Reason being things die before these problems can present themselves in any meaningful way. That is, however, exactly what people seem to be counting on. Thus any time there is a problem, low DPS is the first thing people jump onto even if the best solution is as simple as slotting a little more health or moving to a different spot during the fight or just plain old fashioned not standing in the fire.

I can't even count the number of times in the past ten or eleven years where, for example, the healer kept dieing after about fifteen seconds and proceeded to go on a tirade about how bad the DPS was for not killing everything before he died. And it's only getting worse as time goes on. Over the years I've noticed a general trend in the responsibilities of DPS being shifted to the healer or tank so that the DPS is focused more and more on being nothing but a damage robot. Interrupts, off heals, off tanking, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, etc. All of it is being foisted onto the shoulders of the other two roles just so the DPS can concentrate on getting their e-peen meter as big as possible.

So much so that in some cases people aren't even aware that DPS classes even have other capabilities. In one case in particular, I was in a group for a WoW dungeon where the boss had a certain mechanic that the group leader went to considerable length to explain to everyone how we all have to adapt and dance around it or the group would wipe. I slotted one ability on my bar and with literally one instant activation each time the mechanic came up, I made it a non-issue. They all thought the boss was bugged. The fact that my class had an ability specifically made to counter such a mechanic didn't even occur to any of them.

timidobserver · May 2015

The reason the difficulty is being nerfed so hard is because players go into a dungeon once and if anything even hits them back they go onto the forums.

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

This game's Vet dungeons are perfect. They are easy for great players, average for good players, tough for mediocre players, and impossible for bad players. If they are anything but easy for you, then you need to work on getting better as a player, not sit around wishing they were nerfed.

More like easy for great, average, okay, and mediocre players. Tough for bad players. Impossible for players with an oxygen deficiency.

PhatGrimReaper · May 2015

ESO is my first MMO, so the words DPS, Healer & tank meant absolutely nothing to me a year ago. I've now completed 99% of the games content as a DPS, Tank & healer and I do find the Vet Dungeons pretty easy, but it took time, time to learn the mechanics, time to workout a build that works, time to compile the right gear.

My suggestion for the OP and those others having trouble with the vet dungeons is to find at least one or two people who are available to run dungeons with you on the regular.... Join a PVE guild, you'll find that guildies with more experience will often be happy to help new players to learn the dungeons.... Watch some of the walkthroughs online, this will at least give you an idea of what you need to do.... most all, understand that it takes time to get good at anything, if it were easy to be amazing, it wouldn't be amazing anymore.

Be patient, you will work out how to beat all the dungeons and it'll be more fulfilling to beat them with skill and perseverance than it would be to beat them with the nerf hammer.

Fecius · June 2015

Glurin wrote: »

So I notice all the people here waving their e-peen saying vet dungeons are easy and even some saying they should be harder. Not uncommon. See it all the time on other forums as well. But the thing I want to make note of is that generally these people, especially the ones saying make them harder, have already gone through the dungeons many times and have most of the drops and and other top quality gear that you have to run the dungeons to get.

See, the overall point of running the dungeons is to get the kind of gear that makes running the dungeons easier. Thus balancing the dungeons around characters that already have the gear just makes it impossibly difficult to get the gear in the first place. Not to mention the experience from running said dungeons enough times to get the gear. It reminds me of all the times I've seen people spamming the chat looking for group or raid members and requiring that they have a full, perfect set of the drops/gear and a min/maxed FotM build with perfect rotation just to get an invite. Usually they come with some shady external loot roll system as well, but that at least isn't an issue here.

Anyway, this is just a general observation spanning many titles. Not just ESO. People don't seem to take into account that things like dungeons need to be balanced for progression. Not just challenging the min/maxers who have already acquired the best gear and mastered what the math geeks say is the best build and rotation (that week).

I personally like your point of view. But I'm not sure that ZOS will agree with us. The point is: you need nothing from dungeons, some items from VDSA and some from PvP for your top PvE build. For a common build with not the best, but more then O.K. stat - just craft it or buy in tradeguilds!

ESO highend itemisation is terrible right now. I hope the next major update will fix this problem. It was even better pre 1.6 cause even thow all were in magica (it's a balance problem, not items) you you still needed 5 items from Sanctum Ophidia HM set for top build. Now I can buy almost all gier form tradehouse! It's absurd!

We really need some drop BoP sets from new dungeons\challenges\trials that need to be gathered for best role gier. In that way there would be any sence of clearing it more then just Leaderboard or Achievment as it is now.

Hlaadriel · June 2015

Daveheart wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm actually still a little stunned on how much they've nerfed many of the boss fights.

Whether I'm healing or on DPS, there are several boss fights that end so quickly I don't even realize we were ever in an execute phase.

Had that the other night as well... 10s in Nerien and already at 30%, we had to wait until 4 wraith were summoned