Nothing will ever change and lag will persist in Cyrodiil as long as Siege DOTS are purgable

frozywozy · May 2015

The difference between non vet and vet campaigns is pretty easy to figure out. None (as far as I'm concerned) made a huge organized guild strictly for the BWB campaign to roll a 24men raid using aoe abilities all together.

Wreuntzylla · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

The difference between non vet and vet campaigns is pretty easy to figure out. None (as far as I'm concerned) made a huge organized guild strictly for the BWB campaign to roll a 24men raid using aoe abilities all together.

There were two EP AoE spamming mini-zergs while I was on.

WRX · May 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

This is 100% the best fix. Make these guild who run in 24 or more learn to win fights where they don't have the numbers in every fight. Or they can do that, and then they won't make points.

I would love to see a server capped at 16 man groups, lag would be much less. However we'd still need these limits because said guilds will just have people running along side them.

RadioheadSh0t · May 2015

So... If there are more than 24 people in an area, not even in group, you want AP to reduced to near zero? How in any way does that make sense? So, I can either choose to just sit in a four man group between Nikel and Roe or else gain no AP? If I want to be in a group capable of making a significant impact on the map, I have to surrender AP? Group size already comes with diminishing returns.

I'm sick of all the QQ from people who want to only roll in small groups, want to force everyone else to play the same why, and constantly complain on the forums. Can you imagine how little would get done if everyone ran around in four man groups? If that's how you want to play, fine, but i don't see any usefulness is destroying the game just to appease your preferred playstyle.

News flash: your four man group will never beat a larger group of equal skill, nor should it be able to. Your four man group isn't going to roll the map, or cap scrolls, so quit asking for the whole dynamic of the game to be destroyed because it doesn't fit what you want to do. It's open world PVP, deal with it.

RadioheadSh0t · May 2015

I don't like 40 man zerg balls either, I prefer a group of 12-16, but I don't see why we should mess with AP.

The end result will be that the groups that do the most work will see the least benefit.

Xsorus · May 2015

Step 1. Bring Back Oil Catapults Unpurgable Snare

Step 2. There is no step 2..This really all ya need.

Wreuntzylla · May 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

So... If there are more than 24 people in an area, not even in group, you want AP to reduced to near zero? How in any way does that make sense? So, I can either choose to just sit in a four man group between Nikel and Roe or else gain no AP? If I want to be in a group capable of making a significant impact on the map, I have to surrender AP? Group size already comes with diminishing returns.

I'm sick of all the QQ from people who want to only roll in small groups, want to force everyone else to play the same why, and constantly complain on the forums. Can you imagine how little would get done if everyone ran around in four man groups? If that's how you want to play, fine, but i don't see any usefulness is destroying the game just to appease your preferred playstyle.

News flash: your four man group will never beat a larger group of equal skill, nor should it be able to. Your four man group isn't going to roll the map, or cap scrolls, so quit asking for the whole dynamic of the game to be destroyed because it doesn't fit what you want to do. It's open world PVP, deal with it.

The other poster's reasoning aside, ZoS has stated that they want to break up the larger groups as part of lag control. Changing AP incentives is probably the best method to do that.

RadioheadSh0t · May 2015

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

So... If there are more than 24 people in an area, not even in group, you want AP to reduced to near zero? How in any way does that make sense? So, I can either choose to just sit in a four man group between Nikel and Roe or else gain no AP? If I want to be in a group capable of making a significant impact on the map, I have to surrender AP? Group size already comes with diminishing returns.

I'm sick of all the QQ from people who want to only roll in small groups, want to force everyone else to play the same why, and constantly complain on the forums. Can you imagine how little would get done if everyone ran around in four man groups? If that's how you want to play, fine, but i don't see any usefulness is destroying the game just to appease your preferred playstyle.

News flash: your four man group will never beat a larger group of equal skill, nor should it be able to. Your four man group isn't going to roll the map, or cap scrolls, so quit asking for the whole dynamic of the game to be destroyed because it doesn't fit what you want to do. It's open world PVP, deal with it.

The other poster's reasoning aside, ZoS has stated that they want to break up the larger groups as part of lag control. Changing AP incentives is probably the best method to do that.

I actually think the best way to do that is to add objectives outside of keeps. Right now it's a pretty much straight-line battle. Expanding objectives laterally from the current straight-line setup would spread groups out. Yeah, you can go left or right around the IC, but expanding objectives to the unused empty parts of the map is the best way to create dispersion.

For example, you could have small encampments somewhere in between a resource and a keep in difficulty. You could teleport to those camps from nearby keeps, so no blood-porting across the map, but it could add to the speed of the game allowing factions quicker ports to attack an enemies flank, but in set positions so we avoid the FC era of just popping them on resources with continual rezzing.

Right now, everything gets funneled into one or two keeps on the map. If they want us to spread out, meaningful objectives would be the best way to do it. There's tons of unused space in Cyrodiil, give groups a reason to go there and break up the straight-line format that funnels players into single objectives. Wishful thinking, I know, but we have to recognize that the map setup funnels players into objectives and adds to the lagball.

Bouvin · May 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I actually think the best way to do that is to add objectives outside of keeps.

They lag ball will just roll around and take those objectives.

Kinda like they roll between Fare and Nickel/Sej

IxSTALKERxI · May 2015

frozywozy wrote: »

The difference between non vet and vet campaigns is pretty easy to figure out. None (as far as I'm concerned) made a huge organized guild strictly for the BWB campaign to roll a 24men raid using aoe abilities all together.

TTK is a lot higher so smaller groups can wipe larger groups unlike vet campaign. Also emperor's are overpowered in terms of survivability, an emperor could stand in the middle of your 24 players solo and his health, magicka and stamina wouldn't fall below 90% lol. Until you get 10 players to set up siege on him ofcourse.

Edit: Also just curious, why would you wanna run a 24 man in BWB? 24 is overkill, you are going to ruin what is a really fun campaign. The majority of players there are new to the game so running them over with a 24 man just seems a little cruel.

RadioheadSh0t · May 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

I actually think the best way to do that is to add objectives outside of keeps.

They lag ball will just roll around and take those objectives.

Kinda like they roll between Fare and Nickel/Sej

Not true. What I was proposing is a solution to the exact problem you're complaining about. Rather than be forced down a straight line, you could go for a meaningful objective around the flank as opposed to the typical outpost training were accustomed to. Instead of going down the ad nauseam Roe-Nikel path, you could go Brindle-Camp and mount a forward assault deeper in enemy territory.

What I was suggesting would promote speed of play, moving players around the map quicker and in more directions, without falling into some of the pitfalls of FCs. An idea I'm sure will never be implemented, but the solution to player dispersion, in my eyes, is lack of objectives to disperse to. The fights and strategies by all factions typically tend to be redundant.

trimsic_ESO · May 2015

You should add a nuclear weapon to the game too to solve the lag issue....

Glurin · May 2015

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

News flash: your four man group will never beat a larger group of equal skill, nor should it be able to. Your four man group isn't going to roll the map, or cap scrolls, so quit asking for the whole dynamic of the game to be destroyed because it doesn't fit what you want to do. It's open world PVP, deal with it.

Totally agree with that particular statement. I still find myself surprised from time to time when people talk about small groups not being able to take keeps from large groups of defenders like it's a problem. Defenders should always have the advantage. That's kind of the point of taking a defensive position in the first place. Why on earth would it make any kind of sense for this to not be the case? Especially when talking about big groups of defenders v.s. small groups of attackers of otherwise equivalent composition.

On the topic of blobs, yeah, they're kind of a big problem right now. I've seen some of them take three or four direct hits almost simultaneously from siege and seem to take no damage. Then once they have a hole, they run through and just mow down everything. The only thing that seems to work is another blob, which is completely the opposite of what ZOS was aiming for with the recent changes. Not sure if making siege DOTs unpurgeable is the answer, but something needs done.

A rather direct solution might be to have certain siege do more damage when it hits more people. For example, hit two people, do 10k damage. Hit twelve and you do 50k to each of them. That would break up those blobs right quick, at least as far as sieges are concerned. Might make it too difficult for attackers to get through any breaches though.

Joy_Division · May 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

I know a lot of people are convinced this is the answer, but it is super easy to circumvent. Instead of 1 group of 24, a raid will just make 6 groups of 4.

WRX · May 2015

There is no way anyone should be comparing nonvet to vet..

Most could tank as a lvl 35 stam sorc, anything more than that with 5 nirn is over kill.

olemanwinter · May 2015

I strongly agree. Current "winning" tactics in pvp are ridiculously unrealistic.

The zerg has now become "THE BLOB".

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

I know a lot of people are convinced this is the answer, but it is super easy to circumvent. Instead of 1 group of 24, a raid will just make 6 groups of 4.

But won't get credit for the same number of kills, which counts towards AP and quest completion. The few times I ran with a large group, I made so much AP just from turning in quests it was crazy.

However, as a general rule, people running in big groups do so because they can't PvP without it. I personally found it noncompetitive and uninteresting. Tough to high five when you repetitively win 24 v. <24.

olsborg · June 2015

the root of the evil zergblobs, or laggenerators if you will, is they spam purge and barrier.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

i said as much not long ago, tho my suggestion is simply making a cooldown of the "purge" effect.

if you can only be purged every 5 seconds, seige is much more effective but still somewhat manageable.

but ya, making seige totally unpurgable would be to the same effect.

one noticeable thing, Zergs that run around like a single entity would be at severe risk once seige was a risk to them, but would be unable to seige themselves to respond as that would literally make them sitting ducks...

ever see a group run around the outer walls of a keep while inner keep seige hammered them? the only and i mean ONLY reason that works is because of purge... when a group of 24 stacks and then rushes in all at once through oils and catapuls and ballistas on a single breech, that only suceeds because they can purge the dots. if they couldnt, the dot would be enough to out preform the healing in most situations unless literally everyone in that group is running Springs/illustrious

i have seen a havoc group run around the outer wall while 10+ seige were hitting them dead on, to no effect because of purge and heals. If you couldnt purge seige effects, a meatbag and lots of fire would wreck a group like that slowly but surely. and it becomes possible to defend a breech by setting up lots of seige on the hole..

of course once that happens we will start seeing where groups must actually make multiple breeches to sucessfully make it inside and where sneak attacks are that much more important.

but it will spread out players as the current meta allows them to almost freely stack in seige.

there are rare times when a group will get hit by 3 ballistas at once and some people actually try and pull this off now. but those are such an exception its not funny...

oh and not to mention the calculations from purge are quite high since it doesnt follow the 6 target rule.

Bezilar · June 2015

Bring back pack soldiers, but restrict them from deploying if your faction has higher numbers in a certain distance (like keep siege unit counts). The small groups can make their own armies then.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i said as much not long ago, tho my suggestion is simply making a cooldown of the "purge" effect.

if you can only be purged every 5 seconds, seige is much more effective but still somewhat manageable.

but ya, making seige totally unpurgable would be to the same effect.

one noticeable thing, Zergs that run around like a single entity would be at severe risk once seige was a risk to them, but would be unable to seige themselves to respond as that would literally make them sitting ducks...

ever see a group run around the outer walls of a keep while inner keep seige hammered them? the only and i mean ONLY reason that works is because of purge... when a group of 24 stacks and then rushes in all at once through oils and catapuls and ballistas on a single breech, that only suceeds because they can purge the dots. if they couldnt, the dot would be enough to out preform the healing in most situations unless literally everyone in that group is running Springs/illustrious

i have seen a havoc group run around the outer wall while 10+ seige were hitting them dead on, to no effect because of purge and heals. If you couldnt purge seige effects, a meatbag and lots of fire would wreck a group like that slowly but surely. and it becomes possible to defend a breech by setting up lots of seige on the hole..

of course once that happens we will start seeing where groups must actually make multiple breeches to sucessfully make it inside and where sneak attacks are that much more important.

but it will spread out players as the current meta allows them to almost freely stack in seige.

there are rare times when a group will get hit by 3 ballistas at once and some people actually try and pull this off now. but those are such an exception its not funny...

oh and not to mention the calculations from purge are quite high since it doesnt follow the 6 target rule.

This guy gets it.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

Siege was DESIGNED TO BE AN ANTI-INFANTY/ANTI-PERSONAL WEAPON

The Barbarian Tribes of Europe tried and most of their battle strategy was over running everyone with larger numbers (See Boudica)

the Roman's countered this non-sense with siege and Ballista's while funnelling their larger numbers into tight valley's and walls and killing them with the artillery at the time(siege) and finishing off the rest with their Legions.

the point of this thread is there is ZERO defensive advantage in ESO PVP whatsoever...it matters not if you have:

High ground
Walls
Chokepoint
etc

None of that matters, they will just zerg you down and spam barrier and purge spam rendering it useless.

Siege needs to be the equivalent of a trial boss...don't want to get hit by it, move.its easy to avoid in the open field. In PVE trials, Dungeons, etc..you stand in the red circle, you get bent...the same should be for pvp...you stand in the red circle, you get bent.

the Warrior in Hel Ra Citadel will hit you for over 50K if you stand in his cone for his Cleve or whatever...and rightfully so, move or die....spamming purge and heals shouldn't be an option to survive siege fire. PVE players are punished everyday for not moving out of the red circles by being 1 shotted, pvp players should be the same, if you stand in siege fire, you should die and enjoy your horse ride back or wait for a rez Don't want to die? move.

This will make keeps harder to take...i like the idea of having to have multiple-breeches to take a heavily fortified defensive structure., I like the idea of Barrier and Purge spam not saving me or anyone else from oil pots and siege fire on a breech. I like the idea this will nerf zerging, I like the idea defensive siege will actually matter, I like the idea this "buys time" so reinforcements can get there to give whichever faction a chance against the zerg.

For good measure, Siege damage as a whole needs its damage upped another 15%, on the initial hit and DOTS, ignores damage shields and barrier, and those DOTS made un-purgable....

Yup i expect to see siege everywhere, I expect to die to siege when shot by it, but i'd take that over the zerging we currently have.

It would also be nice to see 15 smart players wipe larger with tactical siege placement and smarts instead of just being run over by larger numbers all the time....this goes for all the factions, the stacking around and zerging has made this game staler then a loaf of bread left in the sun for a month....having this kinda siege will make for a better game.

I promise you, the lag will mostly disappear because 1 well placed siege shot will be capable of killing multiple people, zerging will go the wayside because it won't be feasible to do what is currently causing this game to lag because doing so will result in your death.

the only way ZOS will fix the lag is by making zerging a death sentence, and the only way to do that is with powerful un-purgeable siege.

Siege is slow, clunky, and leaves its user vulnerable...increase the pack and unpack times slightly, and reduce their HP in return for making them tougher and un-purgable, then a lot of the lag will go away. Yes we will have lots of QQ on the forums, but it needs to be done.

To those who say "Nothing in the game should be able to one shot me"

PVE'er deal with it all the time...go into AA or HRC, or even Santum and stand in the red circles and cones and see what happens, you get bent...if they can adapt, so can we.

frozywozy · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i said as much not long ago, tho my suggestion is simply making a cooldown of the "purge" effect.

if you can only be purged every 5 seconds, seige is much more effective but still somewhat manageable.

but ya, making seige totally unpurgable would be to the same effect.

one noticeable thing, Zergs that run around like a single entity would be at severe risk once seige was a risk to them, but would be unable to seige themselves to respond as that would literally make them sitting ducks...

ever see a group run around the outer walls of a keep while inner keep seige hammered them? the only and i mean ONLY reason that works is because of purge... when a group of 24 stacks and then rushes in all at once through oils and catapuls and ballistas on a single breech, that only suceeds because they can purge the dots. if they couldnt, the dot would be enough to out preform the healing in most situations unless literally everyone in that group is running Springs/illustrious

i have seen a havoc group run around the outer wall while 10+ seige were hitting them dead on, to no effect because of purge and heals. If you couldnt purge seige effects, a meatbag and lots of fire would wreck a group like that slowly but surely. and it becomes possible to defend a breech by setting up lots of seige on the hole..

of course once that happens we will start seeing where groups must actually make multiple breeches to sucessfully make it inside and where sneak attacks are that much more important.

but it will spread out players as the current meta allows them to almost freely stack in seige.

there are rare times when a group will get hit by 3 ballistas at once and some people actually try and pull this off now. but those are such an exception its not funny...

oh and not to mention the calculations from purge are quite high since it doesnt follow the 6 target rule.

In before 16men group rage posts about how they can use sieges to their advantage even more to wreck smaller groups..

I have said what you just explained times and times again and I'm glad that finally someone get it. Who cares about open field battles ? What matter is objective defenses. When your keep is under attacked by a pvedoor crew and you are out numbered, your only solution is sieging them but at the moment with the amount of purge spam, it does near to nothing. Don't tell me that when a large group rush inside a breach that they will benefit more from a nerf to purge (cannot purge siege dots).

Simply, no. Invaders, as they push in have no way to drop sieges and to be in any better position than every defender fireing at that breach. It can only benefit people defending the keeps from people who like to pvedoor and will force them, as mentioned in the post above, to open multiple breaches and spread out the counter siege to try to find the weakness. This is what a real warfare should look like. And as you also pointed, making siege dots not purgable would also reduce server calculations and reduce the latency.

BigTone · June 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Siege was DESIGNED TO BE AN ANTI-INFANTY/ANTI-PERSONAL WEAPON

The Barbarian Tribes of Europe tried and most of their battle strategy was over running everyone with larger numbers (See Boudica)

the Roman's countered this non-sense with siege and Ballista's while funnelling their larger numbers into tight valley's and walls and killing them with the artillery at the time(siege) and finishing off the rest with their Legions.

the point of this thread is there is ZERO defensive advantage in ESO PVP whatsoever...it matters not if you have:

High ground
Walls
Chokepoint
etc

None of that matters, they will just zerg you down and spam barrier and purge spam rendering it useless.

Siege needs to be the equivalent of a trial boss...don't want to get hit by it, move.its easy to avoid in the open field. In PVE trials, Dungeons, etc..you stand in the red circle, you get bent...the same should be for pvp...you stand in the red circle, you get bent.

the Warrior in Hel Ra Citadel will hit you for over 50K if you stand in his cone for his Cleve or whatever...and rightfully so, move or die....spamming purge and heals shouldn't be an option to survive siege fire. PVE players are punished everyday for not moving out of the red circles by being 1 shotted, pvp players should be the same, if you stand in siege fire, you should die and enjoy your horse ride back or wait for a rez Don't want to die? move.

This will make keeps harder to take...i like the idea of having to have multiple-breeches to take a heavily fortified defensive structure., I like the idea of Barrier and Purge spam not saving me or anyone else from oil pots and siege fire on a breech. I like the idea this will nerf zerging, I like the idea defensive siege will actually matter, I like the idea this "buys time" so reinforcements can get there to give whichever faction a chance against the zerg.

For good measure, Siege damage as a whole needs its damage upped another 15%, on the initial hit and DOTS, ignores damage shields and barrier, and those DOTS made un-purgable....

Yup i expect to see siege everywhere, I expect to die to siege when shot by it, but i'd take that over the zerging we currently have.

It would also be nice to see 15 smart players wipe larger with tactical siege placement and smarts instead of just being run over by larger numbers all the time....this goes for all the factions, the stacking around and zerging has made this game staler then a loaf of bread left in the sun for a month....having this kinda siege will make for a better game.

I promise you, the lag will mostly disappear because 1 well placed siege shot will be capable of killing multiple people, zerging will go the wayside because it won't be feasible to do what is currently causing this game to lag because doing so will result in your death.

the only way ZOS will fix the lag is by making zerging a death sentence, and the only way to do that is with powerful un-purgeable siege.

Siege is slow, clunky, and leaves its user vulnerable...increase the pack and unpack times slightly, and reduce their HP in return for making them tougher and un-purgable, then a lot of the lag will go away. Yes we will have lots of QQ on the forums, but it needs to be done.

To those who say "Nothing in the game should be able to one shot me"

PVE'er deal with it all the time...go into AA or HRC, or even Santum and stand in the red circles and cones and see what happens, you get bent...if they can adapt, so can we.

All of this makes so much sense.Don't want your 24 person group to get wiped by siege? Spread out. Don't think you could survive getting through a heavily guarded breach because of all the siege pointed at it? Make another breach. It will punish blob groups and add some more strategy to taking keeps. Both of which are healthy for the game.

I get so mad when I see people standing in siege circles and not moving. Roll dodge, streak, or use speed buffs to get out of the way.

I would also like to see CC be more effective against blob groups as well. As long as they are spamming purge and rapids, CC is useless against blobs. Any idea on how to fix that?

ToRelax · June 2015

BigTone wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Siege was DESIGNED TO BE AN ANTI-INFANTY/ANTI-PERSONAL WEAPON

The Barbarian Tribes of Europe tried and most of their battle strategy was over running everyone with larger numbers (See Boudica)

the Roman's countered this non-sense with siege and Ballista's while funnelling their larger numbers into tight valley's and walls and killing them with the artillery at the time(siege) and finishing off the rest with their Legions.

the point of this thread is there is ZERO defensive advantage in ESO PVP whatsoever...it matters not if you have:

High ground
Walls
Chokepoint
etc

None of that matters, they will just zerg you down and spam barrier and purge spam rendering it useless.

Siege needs to be the equivalent of a trial boss...don't want to get hit by it, move.its easy to avoid in the open field. In PVE trials, Dungeons, etc..you stand in the red circle, you get bent...the same should be for pvp...you stand in the red circle, you get bent.

the Warrior in Hel Ra Citadel will hit you for over 50K if you stand in his cone for his Cleve or whatever...and rightfully so, move or die....spamming purge and heals shouldn't be an option to survive siege fire. PVE players are punished everyday for not moving out of the red circles by being 1 shotted, pvp players should be the same, if you stand in siege fire, you should die and enjoy your horse ride back or wait for a rez Don't want to die? move.

This will make keeps harder to take...i like the idea of having to have multiple-breeches to take a heavily fortified defensive structure., I like the idea of Barrier and Purge spam not saving me or anyone else from oil pots and siege fire on a breech. I like the idea this will nerf zerging, I like the idea defensive siege will actually matter, I like the idea this "buys time" so reinforcements can get there to give whichever faction a chance against the zerg.

For good measure, Siege damage as a whole needs its damage upped another 15%, on the initial hit and DOTS, ignores damage shields and barrier, and those DOTS made un-purgable....

Yup i expect to see siege everywhere, I expect to die to siege when shot by it, but i'd take that over the zerging we currently have.

It would also be nice to see 15 smart players wipe larger with tactical siege placement and smarts instead of just being run over by larger numbers all the time....this goes for all the factions, the stacking around and zerging has made this game staler then a loaf of bread left in the sun for a month....having this kinda siege will make for a better game.

I promise you, the lag will mostly disappear because 1 well placed siege shot will be capable of killing multiple people, zerging will go the wayside because it won't be feasible to do what is currently causing this game to lag because doing so will result in your death.

the only way ZOS will fix the lag is by making zerging a death sentence, and the only way to do that is with powerful un-purgeable siege.

Siege is slow, clunky, and leaves its user vulnerable...increase the pack and unpack times slightly, and reduce their HP in return for making them tougher and un-purgable, then a lot of the lag will go away. Yes we will have lots of QQ on the forums, but it needs to be done.

To those who say "Nothing in the game should be able to one shot me"

PVE'er deal with it all the time...go into AA or HRC, or even Santum and stand in the red circles and cones and see what happens, you get bent...if they can adapt, so can we.

All of this makes so much sense.Don't want your 24 person group to get wiped by siege? Spread out. Don't think you could survive getting through a heavily guarded breach because of all the siege pointed at it? Make another breach. It will punish blob groups and add some more strategy to taking keeps. Both of which are healthy for the game.

I get so mad when I see people standing in siege circles and not moving. Roll dodge, streak, or use speed buffs to get out of the way.

I would also like to see CC be more effective against blob groups as well. As long as they are spamming purge and rapids, CC is useless against blobs. Any idea on how to fix that?

Easy one. Make siege snares (esp. oil cat) unpurgeable.

Then get rid of that unpurgeable DoT nonsense, because a small group will stand no chance with the increased damage and unpurgeable DoTs. Getting hit once by some sneaky sieger is no big deal, just have to be quick and move around. But if you can't purge that, good night to everyone except shieldstackers at best.

Sacadon · June 2015

BigTone wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Siege was DESIGNED TO BE AN ANTI-INFANTY/ANTI-PERSONAL WEAPON

The Barbarian Tribes of Europe tried and most of their battle strategy was over running everyone with larger numbers (See Boudica)

the Roman's countered this non-sense with siege and Ballista's while funnelling their larger numbers into tight valley's and walls and killing them with the artillery at the time(siege) and finishing off the rest with their Legions.

the point of this thread is there is ZERO defensive advantage in ESO PVP whatsoever...it matters not if you have:

High ground
Walls
Chokepoint
etc

None of that matters, they will just zerg you down and spam barrier and purge spam rendering it useless.

Siege needs to be the equivalent of a trial boss...don't want to get hit by it, move.its easy to avoid in the open field. In PVE trials, Dungeons, etc..you stand in the red circle, you get bent...the same should be for pvp...you stand in the red circle, you get bent.

the Warrior in Hel Ra Citadel will hit you for over 50K if you stand in his cone for his Cleve or whatever...and rightfully so, move or die....spamming purge and heals shouldn't be an option to survive siege fire. PVE players are punished everyday for not moving out of the red circles by being 1 shotted, pvp players should be the same, if you stand in siege fire, you should die and enjoy your horse ride back or wait for a rez Don't want to die? move.

This will make keeps harder to take...i like the idea of having to have multiple-breeches to take a heavily fortified defensive structure., I like the idea of Barrier and Purge spam not saving me or anyone else from oil pots and siege fire on a breech. I like the idea this will nerf zerging, I like the idea defensive siege will actually matter, I like the idea this "buys time" so reinforcements can get there to give whichever faction a chance against the zerg.

For good measure, Siege damage as a whole needs its damage upped another 15%, on the initial hit and DOTS, ignores damage shields and barrier, and those DOTS made un-purgable....

Yup i expect to see siege everywhere, I expect to die to siege when shot by it, but i'd take that over the zerging we currently have.

It would also be nice to see 15 smart players wipe larger with tactical siege placement and smarts instead of just being run over by larger numbers all the time....this goes for all the factions, the stacking around and zerging has made this game staler then a loaf of bread left in the sun for a month....having this kinda siege will make for a better game.

I promise you, the lag will mostly disappear because 1 well placed siege shot will be capable of killing multiple people, zerging will go the wayside because it won't be feasible to do what is currently causing this game to lag because doing so will result in your death.

the only way ZOS will fix the lag is by making zerging a death sentence, and the only way to do that is with powerful un-purgeable siege.

Siege is slow, clunky, and leaves its user vulnerable...increase the pack and unpack times slightly, and reduce their HP in return for making them tougher and un-purgable, then a lot of the lag will go away. Yes we will have lots of QQ on the forums, but it needs to be done.

To those who say "Nothing in the game should be able to one shot me"

PVE'er deal with it all the time...go into AA or HRC, or even Santum and stand in the red circles and cones and see what happens, you get bent...if they can adapt, so can we.

All of this makes so much sense.Don't want your 24 person group to get wiped by siege? Spread out. Don't think you could survive getting through a heavily guarded breach because of all the siege pointed at it? Make another breach. It will punish blob groups and add some more strategy to taking keeps. Both of which are healthy for the game.

I get so mad when I see people standing in siege circles and not moving. Roll dodge, streak, or use speed buffs to get out of the way.

I would also like to see CC be more effective against blob groups as well. As long as they are spamming purge and rapids, CC is useless against blobs. Any idea on how to fix that?

Re: CC effectiveness on groups... Off-the-cuff, slightly/slowly reduce total number of players that both purge and rapids hit and balance that with total number of targets that can be CC'd (talons, encase) and see how things evolve.

As long as PvP and PvE have to balance together (same skills and skill behavior) I'm not optimistic that you can optimize either of them fully. There are just too many dissimilar factors to use the same rules for both. I know there's no way this makes good business sense for ZOS right now. But hopefully some plans are on a roadmap somewhere to be able to tailor skills to PvP without having to worry about end game PvE issues.

sirston · June 2015

Yup make bad players good players with siege what a great idea!
/sarcasm

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

sirston wrote: »

Yup make bad players good players with siege what a great idea!
/sarcasm

nah, give insanely outnumbered folks a fighting chance of not being zerged to death. or actually making a keep defense viable or even buying time for help.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2015

See here is the deal:

Right now keeps are too easy to take, just bring a large group and zerg them with Purge + Barrier and AOE/Negate/Ice Comet spam. if numbers are equal it just comes down to "luck of the lag"

Un-purgable siege means you will need more then 1 breech to get in against competent defenders. if there is 30 of you outside and only 10 inside, charging in with your numbers over the breech won't be viable and thats what these folks are against...un-purgable siege dots ends pvdoor all together. as @frozywozy alluded to.

The biggest benefit and change to un-purgable siege DOTS is:

The map will remain more static and keeps will change hands less often because defenders will actually get the benefit of defensive advantage and keeps will actually be defendable.

The days of needing an equal sized zerg to defend a keep will be over, more fighting will take place outside of keeps, the map will remain more static, lag will be less, overall it will be great for the game...taking a keep will require much more teamwork and coordination and multiple breeches, sounds much more fun to me.

sirston · June 2015

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

Yup make bad players good players with siege what a great idea!
/sarcasm

nah, give insanely outnumbered folks a fighting chance of not being zerged to death. or actually making a keep defense viable or even buying time for help.

I understand that maybe in a battle where there are five defenders in one keep is fighting a large group of 20 or a zerg of 40. but the idea of one shot wonder kills Is taking an extreme stance...Maybe instead of siege Not being able to purge off; or Nerfing purge, why not instead; make it have a third options for example guards in a keep with less then X amount of players run to wall breach just even the odds of a fight or to slow down the attacking forces

since we all know when a wall is breached its either a guild or pugs and the guilds usually just stand outside in a group waiting for everyone to stand together to run in together and runs over any resistance even guards, But when pugs run in; Its a trickle of players and small groups Why not give guards in cyrodiil the DK talons or the Sorcs [CC Violas curse?] Thus slowing them down To your idea of giving your reinforcements more time.
I personally get discouraged of when a fourm post suggest something that later is going to get abused. I see this may be good in keep takes but would be wonders for small gank groups I would personally just sit on rocks and shoot cold fire ballistics through chalman gate knowing everyone I hit would die in a few seconds.