Nothing will ever change and lag will persist in Cyrodiil as long as Siege DOTS are purgable

Sacadon

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See here is the deal:

Right now keeps are too easy to take, just bring a large group and zerg them with Purge + Barrier and AOE/Negate/Ice Comet spam. if numbers are equal it just comes down to "luck of the lag"

Un-purgable siege means you will need more then 1 breech to get in against competent defenders. if there is 30 of you outside and only 10 inside, charging in with your numbers over the breech won't be viable and thats what these folks are against...un-purgable siege dots ends pvdoor all together. as @frozywozy alluded to.


The biggest benefit and change to un-purgable siege DOTS is:

The map will remain more static and keeps will change hands less often because defenders will actually get the benefit of defensive advantage and keeps will actually be defendable.

The days of needing an equal sized zerg to defend a keep will be over, more fighting will take place outside of keeps, the map will remain more static, lag will be less, overall it will be great for the game...taking a keep will require much more teamwork and coordination and multiple breeches, sounds much more fun to me.

maybe it'd translate to more AP too since the fights could last longer if players rezzed etc... bigger d-ticks maybe. I hate nerf threads but this one is compelling.

RinaldoGandolphi

Sacadon wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See here is the deal:

Right now keeps are too easy to take, just bring a large group and zerg them with Purge + Barrier and AOE/Negate/Ice Comet spam. if numbers are equal it just comes down to "luck of the lag"

Un-purgable siege means you will need more then 1 breech to get in against competent defenders. if there is 30 of you outside and only 10 inside, charging in with your numbers over the breech won't be viable and thats what these folks are against...un-purgable siege dots ends pvdoor all together. as @frozywozy alluded to.


The biggest benefit and change to un-purgable siege DOTS is:

The map will remain more static and keeps will change hands less often because defenders will actually get the benefit of defensive advantage and keeps will actually be defendable.

The days of needing an equal sized zerg to defend a keep will be over, more fighting will take place outside of keeps, the map will remain more static, lag will be less, overall it will be great for the game...taking a keep will require much more teamwork and coordination and multiple breeches, sounds much more fun to me.

maybe it'd translate to more AP too since the fights could last longer if players rezzed etc... bigger d-ticks maybe. I hate nerf threads but this one is compelling.

Im telling ya, keep battles would be epic...defenders would be forced to defend multiple breeches, attackers would be forced to breech more then 1 side....you would need to probably breech both sides of the inner to take it..god it would be awesome!!!!!

it would be a fry cry away from what we got now. in a good way!

OtarTheMad

The idea has good intentions and I do agree that purge is a bit too powerful. Short story, me and 5 other AD were defending a keep and all of us pouring oil from the roof to the enemies below ramming the door and none of them died because of purge. It was crazy.

With that said I don't think changing DOTs to not work with purge would work and would just kill small groups further because organized/zergballs will just set up a lot of counter siege on outer keep walls and fire them onto the roof where we are attempting to defend, which will lead to the small group on the roof wiping to the 10+ enemies fire trebs and ballistas firing on the roof. Nice idea though but like Magicka Detonation zergs will find a way to make it benefit them instead of hurt them. We need a real way for small groups to stand a chance against zergs. Someone in my guild suggested that Prox. Detonation do more damage based on the number hit, that might actually be a step in the right direction... just as an example.

Etharian

Rook_Master wrote: »

It would also help if people didn't conform to the self-destructive meta that the "elite" and "hardcore" guilds have established, which is sticking your nose up crown's butt and mindlessly spamming Impulse and Steel Tornado. With a few people purging, barriers etc, of course.

Sorry but there is nothing "ELITE" or "Hardcore" about zerging.... its mindless and destroys the fun in PVP. It takes zero skill to zerg...

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

technohic

After reading the first page, hearing pros and cons, the only thing I get out of this is this game is a mess and there is no right or wrong way to fix it because I don't see any thing get fixed. Just something different would be broken or just not fun. And its not just this topic either. Sad, because I still love the idea of ESO bUT the reality smacks me in the face every time I look at it.

frozywozy

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Ghostbane

If people are in the belief that server calculations are contributing to the lag, then AP reward scaling based on player density to a dynamic radius is an absolute majestic idea.

timidobserver

Nice, a non-nerf solution thread. Nice ideas. Though, I'd prefer that they figure out what the root causes of the lag are and fix or mitigate them directly rather than focusing on forcing players into less laggy strategies. While these solutions are better than a nerf this nerf that thread, I am not a fan of turning siege into something you can't do anything about other than take it.

Preyfar

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

the point of this thread is there is ZERO defensive advantage in ESO PVP whatsoever...it matters not if you have:

High ground
Walls
Chokepoint
etc

Not only that, but there are also some keep-types that have areas where you can not mount counter siege properly against siegers. If they're in one corner, 2-3 siege, you can not setup ballista or catapults to accurately target them no matter what. If they know what they're doing they'll break inner with little trouble short of you dropping down to fight them, which isn't always possible.

xaraan

eh, no. It's an alliance war skill and as most alliance war skills they have niche uses outside of pvp but are mostly useful in pvp - the reason purge is so useful is b/c of seige. Nobody runs purge to get rid of a little dot from this or that weapon (maybe for something like the poison arrow snipe). But that is what the power is essentially for. It doesn't need to be changed. Players can coordinate seige strikes to hit an area and take people out before they purge/heal if they work together.

But I'd bet money that if anything was causing lag, it's not seige dots being purgable. That doesn't even make sense.

tordr86b16_ESO

frozywozy wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

The goal is not to discourage people from grouping in in a large raid. The goal is to give us a possibility to kill them.

You only need big groups when you gotta take a well defended keep. He got the right idea, the single reason for making a huge party is to take or defend a keep, not to run around in circles spamming aoe / dentonation.

Glurin

xaraan wrote: »

eh, no. It's an alliance war skill and as most alliance war skills they have niche uses outside of pvp but are mostly useful in pvp - the reason purge is so useful is b/c of seige. Nobody runs purge to get rid of a little dot from this or that weapon (maybe for something like the poison arrow snipe). But that is what the power is essentially for. It doesn't need to be changed. Players can coordinate seige strikes to hit an area and take people out before they purge/heal if they work together.

But I'd bet money that if anything was causing lag, it's not seige dots being purgable. That doesn't even make sense.

You're right. It's not the siege dots being purgeable that causes lag. It's the people stacking right on top of each other so that they can spam purge and heals to take virtually no damage that is causing lag. Making siege dots unpurgable means siege does more damage to these groups. Hopefully more than the heals by themselves can compensate for. Which means that stacking on top of each other is basically suicide. The result is less lag because these groups will either spread out or die.

As for "just coordinate siege strikes", I have personally watched as some of these groups take four or five direct hits from fire ballistae and a couple fire trebs in just a two second span and brush it off like it was nothing. The one who was clearly the leader didn't even bother moving when targeted. If the projectiles don't all hit the target simultaneously, there is currently a very, very slim chance that they will have any practical effect. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is not the intended design of siege mechanics.

Septimus_Magna

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The difference between non vet and vet campaigns is pretty easy to figure out. None (as far as I'm concerned) made a huge organized guild strictly for the BWB campaign to roll a 24men raid using aoe abilities all together.

TTK is a lot higher so smaller groups can wipe larger groups unlike vet campaign. Also emperor's are overpowered in terms of survivability, an emperor could stand in the middle of your 24 players solo and his health, magicka and stamina wouldn't fall below 90% lol. Until you get 10 players to set up siege on him ofcourse.

Edit: Also just curious, why would you wanna run a 24 man in BWB? 24 is overkill, you are going to ruin what is a really fun campaign. The majority of players there are new to the game so running them over with a 24 man just seems a little cruel.

Lol, we killed an DK vamp Emperor with only a hand full of people yesterday on Haderus.

On Thornblade and Chillrend there are 40-50 man groups, good luck winning with only 24 people.
The problem is that numbers (and some skill) win in this game, siege is easily purged and if the groups health gets in danger they just pop a barrier. With big groups there will be more barriers and heals so its very hard to kill them, even if they stand still (where they can be hit by siege) they have siege shields up so its nearly impossible for a couple to win against a big zerg.

Etaniel

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See here is the deal:

Right now keeps are too easy to take, just bring a large group and zerg them with Purge + Barrier and AOE/Negate/Ice Comet spam. if numbers are equal it just comes down to "luck of the lag"

Un-purgable siege means you will need more then 1 breech to get in against competent defenders. if there is 30 of you outside and only 10 inside, charging in with your numbers over the breech won't be viable and thats what these folks are against...un-purgable siege dots ends pvdoor all together. as @frozywozy alluded to.


The biggest benefit and change to un-purgable siege DOTS is:

The map will remain more static and keeps will change hands less often because defenders will actually get the benefit of defensive advantage and keeps will actually be defendable.

The days of needing an equal sized zerg to defend a keep will be over, more fighting will take place outside of keeps, the map will remain more static, lag will be less, overall it will be great for the game...taking a keep will require much more teamwork and coordination and multiple breeches, sounds much more fun to me.

maybe it'd translate to more AP too since the fights could last longer if players rezzed etc... bigger d-ticks maybe. I hate nerf threads but this one is compelling.

Im telling ya, keep battles would be epic...defenders would be forced to defend multiple breeches, attackers would be forced to breech more then 1 side....you would need to probably breech both sides of the inner to take it..god it would be awesome!!!!!

it would be a fry cry away from what we got now. in a good way!

lmao, it's easy to turn your argument around... making more breaches means needing more people to attack, means bigger zergs at every attacking keep, meaning more lag, meaning however strong your siege is, it won't matter because you either can't place it or can't shoot it or better yet it doesn't do damage.

I'm sure if purge is nerfed, they'll just stack even more players to go through the breach this way even if you oneshot half of them they are followed by anoher 30 which can go through while you are reloading your siege.

Hypertionb14_ESO

i would not say the map would become more static in general, only when a faction is heavily backed in a corner..

the small but well organized groups already tend to focus keeps not actively defended. in those cases defensive seige are all but absent.

its biggest effect would be on those groups that garner massive numbers to headbutt a wall down then stack through it despite the defenders putting siege on it. or those that decide to front door it, and just stand in the oils.

the overall state of the map would probably progress the same.. but the heavily stacked groups would be much less successful in their stacking tactics.

on the guy above, it doesnt take much to take a wall down.. a group of 9 can zerg a wall down even when its heavily defended in the current state, with the members easily avoiding counter seige by only firing on cooldown. Keeps are actually quite squishy when you hit the limit and if a group with enough to 20/20 the limit can take down one wall in a minute or 2, they can easily take down several. Remember, a single player can easily operate 4 trebs on their own. you only need 5 players operating 4 each to hit the limit.

smart groups will figure out a counter, but they wont be able to go as easily at least.

RinaldoGandolphi

Etaniel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

See here is the deal:

Right now keeps are too easy to take, just bring a large group and zerg them with Purge + Barrier and AOE/Negate/Ice Comet spam. if numbers are equal it just comes down to "luck of the lag"

Un-purgable siege means you will need more then 1 breech to get in against competent defenders. if there is 30 of you outside and only 10 inside, charging in with your numbers over the breech won't be viable and thats what these folks are against...un-purgable siege dots ends pvdoor all together. as @frozywozy alluded to.


The biggest benefit and change to un-purgable siege DOTS is:

The map will remain more static and keeps will change hands less often because defenders will actually get the benefit of defensive advantage and keeps will actually be defendable.

The days of needing an equal sized zerg to defend a keep will be over, more fighting will take place outside of keeps, the map will remain more static, lag will be less, overall it will be great for the game...taking a keep will require much more teamwork and coordination and multiple breeches, sounds much more fun to me.

maybe it'd translate to more AP too since the fights could last longer if players rezzed etc... bigger d-ticks maybe. I hate nerf threads but this one is compelling.

Im telling ya, keep battles would be epic...defenders would be forced to defend multiple breeches, attackers would be forced to breech more then 1 side....you would need to probably breech both sides of the inner to take it..god it would be awesome!!!!!

it would be a fry cry away from what we got now. in a good way!

lmao, it's easy to turn your argument around... making more breaches means needing more people to attack, means bigger zergs at every attacking keep, meaning more lag, meaning however strong your siege is, it won't matter because you either can't place it or can't shoot it or better yet it doesn't do damage.

I'm sure if purge is nerfed, they'll just stack even more players to go through the breach this way even if you oneshot half of them they are followed by anoher 30 which can go through while you are reloading your siege.

thats very true, you got a point. there is pros and cons to everything.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

Glurin

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

What you missed is that the discussion is geared more toward breaking up blobs than it is getting rid of zerg. Big groups are not a problem. Big groups that are virtually immune to siege or non-blob player skills is a problem.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

What you missed is that the discussion is geared more toward breaking up blobs than it is getting rid of zerg. Big groups are not a problem. Big groups that are virtually immune to siege or non-blob player skills is a problem.

I'm sorry that makes no sense, breaking up blobs but not getting rid of the Zerg ? The terms Zerg and blobs are synonymous. I told you what the counter to a Zerg is, it is not siege, it's flanking and bombing, if you can get some friendly siege going then it's a plus, but it is the bomb group that will counter the Zerg. I also very clearly in the post you quoted said that people are taking about breaking up the Zerg by making siege dots un-purgable ? I think I am one of the few people that actually read EVERY post in the thread before posting anything at all.

FluffiestOne

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

This.

cjthibs

What about just making purge channeled and interruptable?

frozywozy

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

This :

frozywozy wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i said as much not long ago, tho my suggestion is simply making a cooldown of the "purge" effect.

if you can only be purged every 5 seconds, seige is much more effective but still somewhat manageable.


but ya, making seige totally unpurgable would be to the same effect.

one noticeable thing, Zergs that run around like a single entity would be at severe risk once seige was a risk to them, but would be unable to seige themselves to respond as that would literally make them sitting ducks...

ever see a group run around the outer walls of a keep while inner keep seige hammered them? the only and i mean ONLY reason that works is because of purge... when a group of 24 stacks and then rushes in all at once through oils and catapuls and ballistas on a single breech, that only suceeds because they can purge the dots. if they couldnt, the dot would be enough to out preform the healing in most situations unless literally everyone in that group is running Springs/illustrious


i have seen a havoc group run around the outer wall while 10+ seige were hitting them dead on, to no effect because of purge and heals. If you couldnt purge seige effects, a meatbag and lots of fire would wreck a group like that slowly but surely. and it becomes possible to defend a breech by setting up lots of seige on the hole..

of course once that happens we will start seeing where groups must actually make multiple breeches to sucessfully make it inside and where sneak attacks are that much more important.

but it will spread out players as the current meta allows them to almost freely stack in seige.

there are rare times when a group will get hit by 3 ballistas at once and some people actually try and pull this off now. but those are such an exception its not funny...

oh and not to mention the calculations from purge are quite high since it doesnt follow the 6 target rule.

In before 16men group rage posts about how they can use sieges to their advantage even more to wreck smaller groups..

I have said what you just explained times and times again and I'm glad that finally someone get it. Who cares about open field battles ? What matter is objective defenses. When your keep is under attacked by a pvedoor crew and you are out numbered, your only solution is sieging them but at the moment with the amount of purge spam, it does near to nothing. Don't tell me that when a large group rush inside a breach that they will benefit more from a nerf to purge (cannot purge siege dots).

Simply, no. Invaders, as they push in have no way to drop sieges and to be in any better position than every defender fireing at that breach. It can only benefit people defending the keeps from people who like to pvedoor and will force them, as mentioned in the post above, to open multiple breaches and spread out the counter siege to try to find the weakness. This is what a real warfare should look like. And as you also pointed, making siege dots not purgable would also reduce server calculations and reduce the latency.

Your whole wall of text is all about open field battles. If your small group dies from siege in an open field battle against larger numbers because siege dots aren't purgable anymore, this was your mistake. Use obstacles such as trees, rocks, hills and choke points to surprise your enemy. Force them to stack and bomb them with quick bursts before you start retreating again and setup a new ambush.

What matters to win the campaign is keep defenses and I like the idea of slowing down siegers by deploying massive counter-siege aimed at the first breach to prevent any organized group to push in without proper preparation such as multiple barriers ready and enough full time healers.

It forces the attacking forces to open multiple breaches and gives time for the reinforcements of the defending faction to arrive.

Just try to remember any movie you have watched illustrating a battle around a castle with huge armies. Attackers don't get inside the castle only by one single breach. They have to spread out the defenders and to try to find the weakness before they get inside. Otherwise they all get into the meat grinder and die one after the other, as it should be if the defenders did a proper job setting massive counter siege on it.

Glurin

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

What you missed is that the discussion is geared more toward breaking up blobs than it is getting rid of zerg. Big groups are not a problem. Big groups that are virtually immune to siege or non-blob player skills is a problem.

I'm sorry that makes no sense, breaking up blobs but not getting rid of the Zerg ? The terms Zerg and blobs are synonymous.

Not quite. A zerg refers to a large group. They can be spread out, stacked, organized, disorganized, guild, random PUGs, whatever. "Blob" specifically refers to large organized groups where everyone is stacked on top of each other and the entire group moves as one compact entity spamming AoE, heals and purge.

I told you what the counter to a Zerg is, it is not siege, it's flanking and bombing, if you can get some friendly siege going then it's a plus, but it is the bomb group that will counter the Zerg. I also very clearly in the post you quoted said that people are taking about breaking up the Zerg by making siege dots un-purgable ? I think I am one of the few people that actually read EVERY post in the thread before posting anything at all.

Siege should counter blobs and they were quite clearly intended to do so. I believe it was even stated outright that this was the intent when the damage was increased. If your group stacks up and gets hit with a flaming boulder or two, then your group should die. This would in turn force your group to spread out to avoid being one shot by the lone defender on the tower, having the side benefit of reducing lag. Defenders regain their position advantage and keeps once again become more than mere checkpoints for the migrating blob.

Don't like the idea of a lone defender one shotting your whole group? Then don't stack up to eat the flaming rock like a bunch of ***.

ToRelax

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

What you missed is that the discussion is geared more toward breaking up blobs than it is getting rid of zerg. Big groups are not a problem. Big groups that are virtually immune to siege or non-blob player skills is a problem.

I'm sorry that makes no sense, breaking up blobs but not getting rid of the Zerg ? The terms Zerg and blobs are synonymous.

Not quite. A zerg refers to a large group. They can be spread out, stacked, organized, disorganized, guild, random PUGs, whatever. "Blob" specifically refers to large organized groups where everyone is stacked on top of each other and the entire group moves as one compact entity spamming AoE, heals and purge.

I told you what the counter to a Zerg is, it is not siege, it's flanking and bombing, if you can get some friendly siege going then it's a plus, but it is the bomb group that will counter the Zerg. I also very clearly in the post you quoted said that people are taking about breaking up the Zerg by making siege dots un-purgable ? I think I am one of the few people that actually read EVERY post in the thread before posting anything at all.

Siege should counter blobs and they were quite clearly intended to do so. I believe it was even stated outright that this was the intent when the damage was increased. If your group stacks up and gets hit with a flaming boulder or two, then your group should die. This would in turn force your group to spread out to avoid being one shot by the lone defender on the tower, having the side benefit of reducing lag. Defenders regain their position advantage and keeps once again become more than mere checkpoints for the migrating blob.

Don't like the idea of a lone defender one shotting your whole group? Then don't stack up to eat the flaming rock like a bunch of ***.

This.

frozywozy

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

A little devils advocate here;

People don't seem to realize that alliance versus alliance or as us old timers call it, realm vs realm, has always been down at its core a numbers game, realm versus realm is not suppose to be fair, it's not suppose to a medieval war simulator where superior artillery trumps group synergy and coordination, hell it's not suppose to be fun all the time. By nature realm vs realm is an unfair roller coaster filled with frustrating, exhilarating, angry and awesome moments all at the same time. I think the years of arena and battlegrounds accustomed people to always have a fair fight in pvp, to always be on equal ground with their enemy, none of these characteristic translate into the pvp type we have here which is Realm VS Realm. I believe a lot of the frustration people experience is because they enter cyrodil and are under the impression it is one giant battleground and therefore must behave in such a manner.

The few against the many :

Do you all want to know what the counter to a Zerg is ? It's been around since before ESO existed, the guild I play with uses it on a daily basis, we wipe blobs of reds and blues while under siege fire and grossly outnumbered. Drum Roll......................The Stealth Bomb. If you surprise an enemy Zerg/organized group with a bomb group setup no amount of purge, heals or barriers will save them. The key is timing and high damage spikes. If you spike the damage high enough quick enough you can kill many before healers can respond with their BoL or barriers. Being able to have unrestricted mobility and to be able to flank and bomb are all you really need to wipe superior numbers. Now the stealth bomb is just one tactic you can use to thin out the enemy ranks there are others that savvy groups know how to implement but the stealth bomb is the easiest to pull off. I can guarantee you that making siege dots un-purgable will completely destroy 1-12 man groups because more often then not, when you are fighting superior enemy numbers they will have siege on you. So creating an un-purgable slow alone would destroy one of the cornerstones of what smaller groups need to take on larger forces which is unrestricted mobility. So this change would empower the larger force because they are capable of maintaining siege pressure and still have the luxury of superior numbers.

Looks like you haven't read anything from this thread.

Enlighten me then what did I miss ?

Are people not discussing how superior numbers always equal a win ?
Was there not talk of making siege DOTS un-purgable ?
Are people not discussing ways to break of the Zerg by reducing AP ?
Or increasing the damage of the Zerg buster skills the more players they hit ?
Did I not explain the nature of Realm versus Realm and where IMO player frustration stem from ?

So tell me master of reading comprehension what did I miss ?

What you missed is that the discussion is geared more toward breaking up blobs than it is getting rid of zerg. Big groups are not a problem. Big groups that are virtually immune to siege or non-blob player skills is a problem.

I'm sorry that makes no sense, breaking up blobs but not getting rid of the Zerg ? The terms Zerg and blobs are synonymous.

Not quite. A zerg refers to a large group. They can be spread out, stacked, organized, disorganized, guild, random PUGs, whatever. "Blob" specifically refers to large organized groups where everyone is stacked on top of each other and the entire group moves as one compact entity spamming AoE, heals and purge.

I told you what the counter to a Zerg is, it is not siege, it's flanking and bombing, if you can get some friendly siege going then it's a plus, but it is the bomb group that will counter the Zerg. I also very clearly in the post you quoted said that people are taking about breaking up the Zerg by making siege dots un-purgable ? I think I am one of the few people that actually read EVERY post in the thread before posting anything at all.

Siege should counter blobs and they were quite clearly intended to do so. I believe it was even stated outright that this was the intent when the damage was increased. If your group stacks up and gets hit with a flaming boulder or two, then your group should die. This would in turn force your group to spread out to avoid being one shot by the lone defender on the tower, having the side benefit of reducing lag. Defenders regain their position advantage and keeps once again become more than mere checkpoints for the migrating blob.

Don't like the idea of a lone defender one shotting your whole group? Then don't stack up to eat the flaming rock like a bunch of ***.

This guy gets it too. I mean I'm a vamp, I run 80% of the time in large groups who stack on crown but I'm still up for this change. Bring it ZOS!!

RinaldoGandolphi

Agreed, bring it on ZOS!

Chrlynsch

One of the least used siege in eso is the lightning, let the lightning siege damage scale to the number of enemies it hits. Example: base damage of lighting 2500 damage per target hit. Hitting 12 targets does 30000 damage burst. Hitting a blob is very rewarding. .. hitting a few not so much... I give you the zergbuster

Hypertionb14_ESO

Prothwata wrote: »

One of the least used siege in eso is the lightning, let the lightning siege damage scale to the number of enemies it hits. Example: base damage of lighting 2500 damage per target hit. Hitting 12 targets does 30000 damage burst. Hitting a blob is very rewarding. .. hitting a few not so much... I give you the zergbuster

lightning Ballistas?

they are the option taken by those with brains over the common fire ballista.. do not change lightning at all..

the snare of those is deadly combined with the dot when up with other seige... hell i get more solo seige kills with Lightning than i do with fire because of how easily you can repeatedly hit one target. snare easily lasts long enough for reload to finish and next shot to hit the same target.

fire just does better damage vs Vamps which dont even make up 30% of the population and still are better off with a DOT and Snare.

if seige was made unpurgable, you would still see *** using Fire Trebs and Fire ballistas when they could be doing so much more with lightning Ballistsa.

ill tell you the seige that is truely pointless....

Scattershot Catapults.... the only and i mean only use of these is carpet bombing to try and flush out stealthed enemies.

Frawr

thing is. Zerg have been an issue throughout history. Look at the Romans and their turtle raid. Made mincemeat of the northern European zerglings. Only the Scottish skirmishers proved too hard so they walled them in.

The difference between them and us ( yes I know that there are other differences ) is that they couldn't purge siege. They had to avoid it.

It made history smoother. Maybe unpurgeable siege would make current times smoother too. I think it's certainly worth a trial on thornblade.