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Need Clarification on Gaming Keyboards

Casdha
Casdha
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I've been reading several posts where folks are stating that use of Gaming Keyboards and/or Macros can lead to being banned from ESO. I would like some clarification on this please. I use a gaming keyboard with macros but I don't use the macros for combat. I do however use them for pre-programmed Emotes (See Photo below for an example).

After reading this I have gone through all of the documents and found the part covering this, Which I was unaware of, and am still unclear of because the way I use my keyboard. The way I use my keyboard as it does not "change" but "enhances" the game play experience.

Quote from "Code of Conduct":

5.1 Users are forbidden from using any unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic used to change the game play experience on a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax, including the distribution of said programs via ZeniMax services, sites, forums, communities, etc. This would include but is not limited to using or distributing speed hacks, aim bots, mouse controllers, spam bots, automated game play devices, etc. Third party applications are defined as any program, application or script written by an individual, company, corporation, or private party not employed by or contracted to perform services by ZeniMax.

Along with the following picture I am including a copy of my keyboard profile for review. I need an answer to this as I don't want to be in violation and subject to being banned.

x73ezyxrg6g6.png

Edit: made bold letters in parts of the Code of Conduct for clarification.
Edited by Casdha on May 27, 2015 3:11PM
Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • Casdha
    Casdha
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    As a side note, the words "Macro" or "Keyboard" are not specifically mentioned in the "Terms of Service", "Code of Conduct", or the "EULA".

    Edit: for clarification
    Edited by Casdha on May 27, 2015 2:51PM
    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
    Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • tengri
    tengri
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    Yeah, and good luck detecting that.
    Z took the cheap way out here and ESO has no client side cheat protection/detection component; and on the other end you can only see so much...

    The only thing they actually could detect here are very precisely timed sequences of key strokes - and even those are subject to the mood of the internet/routers between you and the server and will more or less automatically contain enough little timing variations for "macro-cheaters" to be perfectly safe.

    All that is left is that balloon of hot air particular terms of service clause... which no one ever reads nor cares about.
  • Casdha
    Casdha
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    @ZOS_MollyH nothing against you personally but it would have been nice to know this before I spent $180 on mouse and keyboard for the sole purpose of playing this game. It also would have been nice if ZOS hadn't lead folks that were new to MMOs to believe this is OK to use these devices by asking specific questions regarding these devices functionality during Beta. If they ask how they work then you would assume that they are OK to use. (Yes I know the saying for assume).

    To @ZOS_PaulSage and any other High profile representative of this game, If ZOS holds firm to this stance on the benign use of these devices being banned in their game (such as emotes or one button bug reports) then you can rest assured that I will not use these devices in your game.


    P.s. Just to show who reads this stuff The quote in the original post does not show up anywhere in the "Terms of Service" it is Quoted from the "Code of Conduct"
    Edited by Casdha on May 27, 2015 6:20PM
    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
    Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • RedTalon
    RedTalon
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    Thanks for clearing this up finally, ZOS
  • nastuug
    nastuug
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    Deleted.
    Edited by nastuug on May 27, 2015 8:16PM
    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"
  • lordrichter
    lordrichter
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    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »
    Hello @Casdha !

    To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

    The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

    Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

    That sucks. I had already contacted support directly via help about this exact issue and received the OK to proceed.

    Edit: I have reopened my ticket from April where I asked this and was not told it was a problem, so long as certain restrictions were upheld.


    Edited by lordrichter on May 28, 2015 12:04AM
    PC North America since March 2014
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say NO to Crown Crates! You should be able to buy directly. Better yet, cosmetics should be in-game rewards!
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  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    Those aren't even macros OP. I don\t think? :/
  • Zorgon_The_Revenged
    Zorgon_The_Revenged
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    /sucketsblash

    /bucketslash

    /vucketdash

    aarrghhh!

    oh well, /godmode
  • newtinmpls
    newtinmpls
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    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

    There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

    You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

    I had understood this (somewhat paraphrased) as you don't get to do stuff that gives an unfair advantage (i.e. a bonus or benefit NOT achievable without the hardware/software in question), and by advantage I mean something that benefits power/abilities/gold - in the same way the crown store isn't meant to provide unfair in-game advantages (I do not consider the non-ability-related skin of one's mount to be an 'advantage').
    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

    Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

    I had understood that a macro in the sense of an addon to do a small non-stackable non-power/ability/gold-related thing was specifically permitted by ZoS and that inherent in the definition of a permitted macro was that you had to "be there" (actually at your keyboard) to use it. So by definition, a macro that lets a character stand by a node and harvest it if/when it re-spawned would be prohibited (increases resources/gold) (and probably would be botting).
    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (bosmer template) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • glak
    glak
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    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »
    Hello @Casdha !

    To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

    The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

    Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.
    Awww, and just when I wanted to fix the Templar's Honor The Dead Teammates I Couldn't Heal In Time.

    Actually I do have a question. Is Wykkyd's addon OK?
    http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info736-WykkydsMacros.html
    Edited by glak on May 28, 2015 1:05AM
  • Wily_Wizard
    Wily_Wizard
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    glak wrote: »
    Actually I do have a question. Is Wykkyd's addon OK?
    http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info736-WykkydsMacros.html

    Honestly, I believe ESO should have this functionality natively in the game. After all they designed the player from the ground up to assume any role in the game, and many people have already invested a lot of time to make their players have multi role capabilities. ESO made some small effort already to switch weapons, but obviously that's not enough when you want to switch from a tank to a healer. Maybe its just my opinion, but until ESO can get around to making the UI the way that it "should" be, that's addons like this really add value to the game, and ESO should endorse them.

    I mean literally it would be nice if ESO set up an official "seal of approval" webpage that provides a list of the addons they have tested for stability and fully endorse. I've seen this is other games where the Devs actually had a portal to the game community there. I believe the theme went something like this, "Nice, we couldn't have done it better ourselves".
  • Casdha
    Casdha
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    As a solution I would suggest one of two things for ZOS to do

    1. (easiest) review and approve for release the above attached profile for a Logitech G 510s keyboard along with other community created items such as this, provided they uphold certain gaming fair play standards

    2. (Harder) ZOS Program ESOTU to have all emotes and chat commands be able to be assigned to a hot key or extra mouse key from the in game menu so that third party software doesn't have to be used.

    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
    Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • drschplatt
    drschplatt
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    So someone with a mouse that does the following would get banned?


    "press enter key"
    followed by
    "type /zone"
    followed by
    "press enter key"

    Just changing chat channels...yeesh.
    Foräois - Imperial Sorcerer of Ineptitude.
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  • SeñorCinco
    SeñorCinco
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    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »
    Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

    So, the addons created by players via ZOS supervision are, in fact, illegal?



    Edited by SeñorCinco on May 28, 2015 6:03AM
    Words contained in posts, at which point I stop reading and will not respond...
    Toon / Mana / WoW or any acronym following "In ___" /
    Pets (when referring to summoned Daedra) / Any verbiage to express slang (ie, ending in uz,az,..) / Soul Stone
    ... to be continued.

    Now, get off my lawn.

  • Razzak
    Razzak
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    drschplatt wrote: »
    So someone with a mouse that does the following would get banned?


    "press enter key"
    followed by
    "type /zone"
    followed by
    "press enter key"

    Just changing chat channels...yeesh.

    Maybe, but someone using a macro in combat wouldn't be, as they have no way of detecting that. Macro that makes you perform 3 or 4 instead of 2 skill/sec is something that "could" be the result of a lag and thus cannot be flagged as exploit.
  • Casdha
    Casdha
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    Here is a short low quality video of testing some of these out so that you can see what I mean. Each Emote was a single key press, they are not chained together. Of course I don't guess I'll be using these anymore.


    Edited by Casdha on May 28, 2015 6:32AM
    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
    Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • Syntse
    Syntse
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    TOS is made intentionally so broad that they can include anything outside the game program itself to be bannable if necessary. This way they do not need to start specify what is ok and what is not.

    Unsaid truth what they cannot of course confirm is that this is looked between the fingers. Will they start tracking and banning player who has emote under one button. Most likely not. TOS just gives them the option to ban anything that they really think is unfair advantage in the game without possibility to complain ("but this hardware is in the approved list").

    I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.
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  • KerinKor
    KerinKor
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    Syntse wrote: »
    I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.
    A poor strawman.

    Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

    "software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

    clause, does it?
  • Syntse
    Syntse
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    KerinKor wrote: »
    Syntse wrote: »
    I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.
    A poor strawman.

    Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

    "software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

    clause, does it?

    Let's take quote sample from the 2nd reply on this post which is from ZOS.
    ZOS_MollyH wrote: »
    To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

    Program 'Razer Synapse' used to map Q and R keys to mouse buttons/keys performing use quickslot item or use ultimate in game. I'm guilty. Of course this is going to the extreme but basically ToS is forbidding this also as it's formed so that they can include anything that uses 3rd party software to be violation.

    Anyway I'm very sure they will not go banning people who have emotes under one key and such but they could if they wanted to. And because of ToS being the way it is they cannot publicly say that 'true this is the case'.
    Syntse Dominion Khajiit Dragonknight Stamina Tank [50]
    Ra'Syntse Dominion Khajiit Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
    Syntselle Dominion Dark Elf Dragonknight Magica DPS [50]
    Syntseus Dominion Imperial Templar Healer [50]
    Syntsetar Dominion High Elf Sorcerer Magica DPS [50]
    Friar Tuktuk Daggerfall Brenton Templar Healer [50]
    Syntseyn Ebonheart Brenton Nightblade Magica DPS [50]
  • Casdha
    Casdha
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    KerinKor wrote: »
    Syntse wrote: »
    I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.
    A poor strawman.

    Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

    "software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

    clause, does it?
    That in itself is the problem macroing is not mentioned in any document by ZOS but they cover it under 3rd party software and if you use 3rd party software to make a key bind you are still technically in violation. But from what I've seen 3rd party software is not needed for my G502 mouse on simple key binds, all buttons can be assigned with the in game menu.
    Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%
    Don't recognize me from Beta click Here
  • Rebornlogic
    Rebornlogic
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    im pretty sure ZOS isnt gonna "ban" you for changing chat channels/emotes. i would think the tos would be more directed at "unfair advantage" animation cancel and whatnot. ya getting your $100+ mouse for "macroing" seems like it "should" be ok, but any way you define "macro" its still a code of script that executes (even if its player recorded). go into your software macro recording location and you should find a .xml,.lua (for logitech and razer) so it falls under most games "not ok" list.

    thanks again for reading:)
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    This thread is a little ripe still but a necro none the less .

    So tell Us a graveyard story . Why'd ya did her up ?
  • lordrichter
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    im pretty sure ZOS isnt gonna "ban" you for changing chat channels/emotes. i would think the tos would be more directed at "unfair advantage" animation cancel and whatnot. ya getting your $100+ mouse for "macroing" seems like it "should" be ok, but any way you define "macro" its still a code of script that executes (even if its player recorded). go into your software macro recording location and you should find a .xml,.lua (for logitech and razer) so it falls under most games "not ok" list.

    thanks again for reading:)

    While this is a necro thread, and there is no indication that ZOS has ever banned someone for "changing chat channels/emotes", it should be noted that these things have been identified by ZOS as a violation of the ToS. If they decide to ban, they can do so. We have been warned.
    PC North America since March 2014
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say NO to Crown Crates! You should be able to buy directly. Better yet, cosmetics should be in-game rewards!
    I collect free, unopened, virgin Crown Crates! 331, so far!

  • ZOS_JohanaB
    ZOS_JohanaB
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    This thread is more than a year old and as such considered to be a necro thread. We do not allow for the resurrection of threads and ask that you check the date before deciding to post. However if something on a thread does strike your interest please feel free to create a new one about the topic that interest you.
    Staff Post
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