Need Clarification on Gaming Keyboards

Casdha · May 2015

I've been reading several posts where folks are stating that use of Gaming Keyboards and/or Macros can lead to being banned from ESO. I would like some clarification on this please. I use a gaming keyboard with macros but I don't use the macros for combat. I do however use them for pre-programmed Emotes (See Photo below for an example).

After reading this I have gone through all of the documents and found the part covering this, Which I was unaware of, and am still unclear of because the way I use my keyboard. The way I use my keyboard as it does not "change" but "enhances" the game play experience.

Quote from "Code of Conduct":

5.1 Users are forbidden from using any unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic used to change the game play experience on a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax, including the distribution of said programs via ZeniMax services, sites, forums, communities, etc. This would include but is not limited to using or distributing speed hacks, aim bots, mouse controllers, spam bots, automated game play devices, etc. Third party applications are defined as any program, application or script written by an individual, company, corporation, or private party not employed by or contracted to perform services by ZeniMax.

Along with the following picture I am including a copy of my keyboard profile for review. I need an answer to this as I don't want to be in violation and subject to being banned.

Edit: made bold letters in parts of the Code of Conduct for clarification.

Casdha · May 2015

As a side note, the words "Macro" or "Keyboard" are not specifically mentioned in the "Terms of Service", "Code of Conduct", or the "EULA".

Edit: for clarification

ZOS_MollyH · May 2015

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

Emma_Overload · May 2015

Well, it looks like the whiners have finally won. Now you can't even program your mouse to make your toon wave without getting your account banned.

Nice job, guys!

tengri · May 2015

Yeah, and good luck detecting that.
Z took the cheap way out here and ESO has no client side cheat protection/detection component; and on the other end you can only see so much...

The only thing they actually could detect here are very precisely timed sequences of key strokes - and even those are subject to the mood of the internet/routers between you and the server and will more or less automatically contain enough little timing variations for "macro-cheaters" to be perfectly safe.

All that is left is that balloon of hot air particular terms of service clause... which no one ever reads nor cares about.

Casdha · May 2015

@ZOS_MollyH nothing against you personally but it would have been nice to know this before I spent $180 on mouse and keyboard for the sole purpose of playing this game. It also would have been nice if ZOS hadn't lead folks that were new to MMOs to believe this is OK to use these devices by asking specific questions regarding these devices functionality during Beta. If they ask how they work then you would assume that they are OK to use. (Yes I know the saying for assume).

To @ZOS_PaulSage and any other High profile representative of this game, If ZOS holds firm to this stance on the benign use of these devices being banned in their game (such as emotes or one button bug reports) then you can rest assured that I will not use these devices in your game.

P.s. Just to show who reads this stuff The quote in the original post does not show up anywhere in the "Terms of Service" it is Quoted from the "Code of Conduct"

ZOS_MollyH · May 2015

Hi @Casdha !

The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation. I apologize for the confusion!

Just to clarify further, part of the Terms of Service document includes an agreement to follow other Supplemental Terms pertaining to Your Service and/or Game, such as a Code of Conduct, provide guidance on behavior that ZeniMax deems to be inappropriate and specify restrictions on Your Account, Your use of the Game, or Your participation in the Services.

There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

RedTalon · May 2015

Thanks for clearing this up finally, ZOS

nastuug · May 2015

Deleted.

Elsonso · May 2015

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

That sucks. I had already contacted support directly via help about this exact issue and received the OK to proceed.

Edit: I have reopened my ticket from April where I asked this and was not told it was a problem, so long as certain restrictions were upheld.

helediron · May 2015

There is a growing number of elder people playing ESO - it is elder scrolls after all. I am using Logitech mouse and keyboard to do simple macros to ease the wear in fingers.The macros include emotes, Wykkyd outfitter changes and things that would need two clicks on mouse or keyboard. For me e.g. the dodge roll is getting difficult to do on vanilla keyboard.

Whatever the youngsters say in ZOS, i will continue to use them. We granpas were born before computers and dont give a xxxxx about some TOS. When i start a run in Crypt of Hearts and wait my buddies, i slam my arse onna chair. That /sitchair comes from a macro in keyboard.

@ZOS_MollyH , you are crossing a border and going too far. Logitech keyboards and mice make macros that trigger from direct human input and perform them without any intelligence. There are no conditionals, just series of keypresses recorded earlier. You can now publicly approve Logitech hardware and software.

TheBull · May 2015

Those aren't even macros OP. I don\t think?

Zorgon_The_Revenged · May 2015

/sucketsblash

/bucketslash

/vucketdash

aarrghhh!

oh well, /godmode

newtinmpls · May 2015

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

I had understood this (somewhat paraphrased) as you don't get to do stuff that gives an unfair advantage (i.e. a bonus or benefit NOT achievable without the hardware/software in question), and by advantage I mean something that benefits power/abilities/gold - in the same way the crown store isn't meant to provide unfair in-game advantages (I do not consider the non-ability-related skin of one's mount to be an 'advantage').

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

I had understood that a macro in the sense of an addon to do a small non-stackable non-power/ability/gold-related thing was specifically permitted by ZoS and that inherent in the definition of a permitted macro was that you had to "be there" (actually at your keyboard) to use it. So by definition, a macro that lets a character stand by a node and harvest it if/when it re-spawned would be prohibited (increases resources/gold) (and probably would be botting).

glak · May 2015

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

Awww, and just when I wanted to fix the Templar's Honor The Dead Teammates I Couldn't Heal In Time.

Actually I do have a question. Is Wykkyd's addon OK?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info736-WykkydsMacros.html

Wily_Wizard · May 2015

glak wrote: »

Actually I do have a question. Is Wykkyd's addon OK?
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info736-WykkydsMacros.html

Honestly, I believe ESO should have this functionality natively in the game. After all they designed the player from the ground up to assume any role in the game, and many people have already invested a lot of time to make their players have multi role capabilities. ESO made some small effort already to switch weapons, but obviously that's not enough when you want to switch from a tank to a healer. Maybe its just my opinion, but until ESO can get around to making the UI the way that it "should" be, that's addons like this really add value to the game, and ESO should endorse them.

I mean literally it would be nice if ESO set up an official "seal of approval" webpage that provides a list of the addons they have tested for stability and fully endorse. I've seen this is other games where the Devs actually had a portal to the game community there. I believe the theme went something like this, "Nice, we couldn't have done it better ourselves".

Casdha · May 2015

As a solution I would suggest one of two things for ZOS to do

1. (easiest) review and approve for release the above attached profile for a Logitech G 510s keyboard along with other community created items such as this, provided they uphold certain gaming fair play standards

2. (Harder) ZOS Program ESOTU to have all emotes and chat commands be able to be assigned to a hot key or extra mouse key from the in game menu so that third party software doesn't have to be used.

drschplatt · May 2015

So someone with a mouse that does the following would get banned?

"press enter key"
followed by
"type /zone"
followed by
"press enter key"

Just changing chat channels...yeesh.

SeñorCinco · May 2015

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

So, the addons created by players via ZOS supervision are, in fact, illegal?

Razzak · May 2015

drschplatt wrote: »

So someone with a mouse that does the following would get banned?

"press enter key"
followed by
"type /zone"
followed by
"press enter key"

Just changing chat channels...yeesh.

Maybe, but someone using a macro in combat wouldn't be, as they have no way of detecting that. Macro that makes you perform 3 or 4 instead of 2 skill/sec is something that "could" be the result of a lag and thus cannot be flagged as exploit.

Casdha · May 2015

Here is a short low quality video of testing some of these out so that you can see what I mean. Each Emote was a single key press, they are not chained together. Of course I don't guess I'll be using these anymore.

https://youtu.be/G5BC1pBAn88

Syntse · May 2015

TOS is made intentionally so broad that they can include anything outside the game program itself to be bannable if necessary. This way they do not need to start specify what is ok and what is not.

Unsaid truth what they cannot of course confirm is that this is looked between the fingers. Will they start tracking and banning player who has emote under one button. Most likely not. TOS just gives them the option to ban anything that they really think is unfair advantage in the game without possibility to complain ("but this hardware is in the approved list").

I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.

KerinKor · May 2015

Syntse wrote: »

I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.

A poor strawman.

Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

"software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

clause, does it?

Syntse · May 2015

KerinKor wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.

A poor strawman.

Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

"software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

clause, does it?

Let's take quote sample from the 2nd reply on this post which is from ZOS.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

Program 'Razer Synapse' used to map Q and R keys to mouse buttons/keys performing use quickslot item or use ultimate in game. I'm guilty. Of course this is going to the extreme but basically ToS is forbidding this also as it's formed so that they can include anything that uses 3rd party software to be violation.

Anyway I'm very sure they will not go banning people who have emotes under one key and such but they could if they wanted to. And because of ToS being the way it is they cannot publicly say that 'true this is the case'.

Casdha · May 2015

KerinKor wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

I also have gaming gear and with 3rd party software (came with the hw) the buttons in my mouse have been mapped to represent certain keys in the keyboard. Eg Q key and R key and so on... guess I need to be banned for violating the TOS because I have mapped quickslot key and ultimate key to my mouse.

A poor strawman.

Keybinding is NOT macroing and clearly doesn't come into the area which the 'green' statement above covers, whether you press a key or click a mouse button doesn't remotely relate to this

"software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax"

clause, does it?

That in itself is the problem macroing is not mentioned in any document by ZOS but they cover it under 3rd party software and if you use 3rd party software to make a key bind you are still technically in violation. But from what I've seen 3rd party software is not needed for my G502 mouse on simple key binds, all buttons can be assigned with the in game menu.

Rebornlogic · August 2016

im pretty sure ZOS isnt gonna "ban" you for changing chat channels/emotes. i would think the tos would be more directed at "unfair advantage" animation cancel and whatnot. ya getting your $100+ mouse for "macroing" seems like it "should" be ok, but any way you define "macro" its still a code of script that executes (even if its player recorded). go into your software macro recording location and you should find a .xml,.lua (for logitech and razer) so it falls under most games "not ok" list.

thanks again for reading:)

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

This thread is a little ripe still but a necro none the less .

So tell Us a graveyard story . Why'd ya did her up ?

Elsonso · August 2016

Rebornlogic wrote: »

im pretty sure ZOS isnt gonna "ban" you for changing chat channels/emotes. i would think the tos would be more directed at "unfair advantage" animation cancel and whatnot. ya getting your $100+ mouse for "macroing" seems like it "should" be ok, but any way you define "macro" its still a code of script that executes (even if its player recorded). go into your software macro recording location and you should find a .xml,.lua (for logitech and razer) so it falls under most games "not ok" list.

thanks again for reading:)

While this is a necro thread, and there is no indication that ZOS has ever banned someone for "changing chat channels/emotes", it should be noted that these things have been identified by ZOS as a violation of the ToS. If they decide to ban, they can do so. We have been warned.

ZOS_JohanaB · August 2016

This thread is more than a year old and as such considered to be a necro thread. We do not allow for the resurrection of threads and ask that you check the date before deciding to post. However if something on a thread does strike your interest please feel free to create a new one about the topic that interest you.