"Behind the big money in Zenimax/ESO"

Raizin · May 2015

(Name of thread is not my own creation, but its well suited to the article bellow: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17084399382)

Read article bellow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/26/business/the-firm-that-grew-too-fast.html?_r=0

Thoughts?:)

Xeven · May 2015

Zeni borrowed half a bil from them since 07. PC sales have nowhere near covered that investment but console could sell 20m copies. Skyrim did, and thats what they're banking on. The crown store is a joke.

Also, in before thread locked or moved to some dark corner of the forum.

Huntler · May 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Zeni borrowed half a bil from them since 07. PC sales have nowhere near covered that investment but console could sell 20m copies. Skyrim did, and thats what they're banking on. The crown store is a joke.

Also, in before thread locked or moved to some dark corner of the forum.

What he said, console sales is their only hope to get return on that investment it sounds like. I really can't imagine PC sales was enough to get anywhere close to that number. Interesting read though.

Raizin · May 2015

Yea.... but i remember the hype from the game when it was released for PC and i wld say they must have made lots of money back then, especialy for those imperial packs and t-shirts they were selling and all that shjt...

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

funny

thats one of their many investors

you talk about losses how about Blizzards project Titan

AhPook_Is_Here · May 2015

I think money doesn't get big or small, it just fills the container it is put in; and if the container is too small the excess flows away.

Raizin · May 2015

Well i hope they ll wake up and when the concoles are released the game will improove...otherwise i dont see the way for them to get more cash :P... no more money to flow away..

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Really, folks...

What do you know about ZOS Budgets ?
What do you know about ESO's sales ?
What do you know about ZOS costs ?
What do you know about the game's business plan and the timeline according to which it is expected to make profits ?
What do you know about how many investors have financed ZOS and by how much and for how long ?

Answers to all questions : NOTHING.

You'd better talk about the weather : at least there are some measurable aspects that we know about regarding the weather.

I really don't understand the pleasure you seem to have in repeating over and over that the game is failing based on no fact at all.

Ezareth · May 2015

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

funny

thats one of their many investors

you talk about losses how about Blizzards project Titan

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Look at Diablo 3. Came out with poor reviews due to the auction house design and such so they canned some the head designer and virtually redesigned the game to be exactly what the feedback the players were giving them wanted. Their "2.0" update improved every aspect of the game and correctly virtually any issue they had. It isn't really my type of game but I played it a bit pre-2.0 and after and it was a night and day difference.

Successful companies like Blizzard can make mistakes, recognize them and correct them or realize they're unsalvageable and cut their losses.

Unsuccessful companies have to cash out on mistakes regardless as they're not solvent enough to do otherwise just as ZoS is doing on the console release of this game and pretty much ignoring their original customers. Games box sales > nonexistent subscription sales.

Mumyo · May 2015

Xeven wrote: »

Zeni borrowed half a bil from them since 07. PC sales have nowhere near covered that investment but console could sell 20m copies. Skyrim did, and thats what they're banking on. The crown store is a joke.

Also, in before thread locked or moved to some dark corner of the forum.

How should they ever get the costs in again... they had so many chances to do it right but decided to give a *** about every pvper in this game which was so many players in the beginning, they managed to get some to take alook at the game again and changed nothing, they even made it worse.

If u hand tons of money to full [snippity snip], u wont have too much profit, when will companys learn that a good investment brings good money and not a project that was only to go for the fast money and was high cost at the end... thats a economical problem happening all over the world.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Valnas · May 2015

they failed to releaes the game they endeavored to, their ambition and promises were broken, the budget is used up and now they are trying to pay the backers.

Mumyo · May 2015

I hope Zeni will lose tons of money, i will give the worst feedback to give because thats what they deserve for their greed!
They just sat on a good title, aiming for money and profit from the work of others. Respect goes out to all the modders and not to anyone else.

wraith808 · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Where's my LOL. You don't think that The Elder Scrolls isn't an important brand image? Ok.

Ezareth · May 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Where's my LOL. You don't think that The Elder Scrolls isn't an important brand image? Ok.

The Elder Scrolls is the IP of Bethesda not ZoS. I was talking about company brand images not IP. Other than having their name on the intro screen of this game Bethesda has done nothing but distance themselves from TESO. The further they put themselves from this game the better the chances people will forget it when TES VI is released.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

funny

thats one of their many investors

you talk about losses how about Blizzards project Titan

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Look at Diablo 3. Came out with poor reviews due to the auction house design and such so they canned some the head designer and virtually redesigned the game to be exactly what the feedback the players were giving them wanted. Their "2.0" update improved every aspect of the game and correctly virtually any issue they had. It isn't really my type of game but I played it a bit pre-2.0 and after and it was a night and day difference.

Successful companies like Blizzard can make mistakes, recognize them and correct them or realize they're unsalvageable and cut their losses.

Unsuccessful companies have to cash out on mistakes regardless as they're not solvent enough to do otherwise just as ZoS is doing on the console release of this game and pretty much ignoring their original customers. Games box sales > nonexistent subscription sales.

Blizzard has 3 top 10 games (hearthstone, wow, diablo3). I actually have a lot of info about Diablo 3 because I was world #1 for several months and my guild currently owns the existing leaderboards. The game is garbage and still hasnt met player expectations despite multiple complete rewrites. Sales were huge but go check the official forums. Theres 10x the bitching on the d3 forums than there is here.

ZMI has Fallout, Dishonored, Skyrim, ESO. Those may not match Blizzard sales numbers but its comparable. Make no mistake Blizzard probably ate 500$ million plus on Titan. Thats from an established MMO company. ZOS put out ESO as its first MMO on its first try.

Blizzard failed to even launch Titan. If you dont think thats a much bigger failure than ESO well I can just stop discussing it now.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Where's my LOL. You don't think that The Elder Scrolls isn't an important brand image? Ok.

The Elder Scrolls is the IP of Bethesda not ZoS. I was talking about company brand images not IP. Other than having their name on the intro screen of this game Bethesda has done nothing but distance themselves from TESO. The further they put themselves from this game the better the chances people will forget it when TES VI is released.

you dont know what you are talking about

Todd Howard didnt touch ESO because MMOs are a different beast. TES 6? Are you just making stuff up now or do you have a link?

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Other than having their name on the intro screen of this game Bethesda has done nothing but distance themselves from TESO.

That's why Pete Hines himself shows up on ESO live ? I agree with Ifthir_ESO, you don't know what you are talking about.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Other than having their name on the intro screen of this game Bethesda has done nothing but distance themselves from TESO.

That's why Pete Hines himself shows up on ESO live ? I agree with Ifthir_ESO, you don't know what you are talking about.

probably why you and I have eso in our forum names

Garion · May 2015

FYI - Zenimax Media is Zenimax Online Services' parent company. Bethesda, ID Software and several other studios also fall under their remit. I would say that they are a safe investment.

Ezareth · May 2015

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

funny

thats one of their many investors

you talk about losses how about Blizzards project Titan

Blizzard moved a lot of the Tech from Titan into Overwatch (which if you've seen it you can't help but be impressed with it) and unlike ZoS they have an important brand image to maintain. I've got a couple of friends who have worked for Blizzard for almost 20 years now and hear a lot of interesting insider info (plus I get free games and beta keys to whatever I want in on).

Look at Diablo 3. Came out with poor reviews due to the auction house design and such so they canned some the head designer and virtually redesigned the game to be exactly what the feedback the players were giving them wanted. Their "2.0" update improved every aspect of the game and correctly virtually any issue they had. It isn't really my type of game but I played it a bit pre-2.0 and after and it was a night and day difference.

Successful companies like Blizzard can make mistakes, recognize them and correct them or realize they're unsalvageable and cut their losses.

Unsuccessful companies have to cash out on mistakes regardless as they're not solvent enough to do otherwise just as ZoS is doing on the console release of this game and pretty much ignoring their original customers. Games box sales > nonexistent subscription sales.

Blizzard has 3 top 10 games (hearthstone, wow, diablo3). I actually have a lot of info about Diablo 3 because I was world #1 for several months and my guild currently owns the existing leaderboards. The game is garbage and still hasnt met player expectations despite multiple complete rewrites. Sales were huge but go check the official forums. Theres 10x the bitching on the d3 forums than there is here.

ZMI has Fallout, Dishonored, Skyrim, ESO. Those may not match Blizzard sales numbers but its comparable. Make no mistake Blizzard probably ate 500$ million plus on Titan. Thats from an established MMO company. ZOS put out ESO as its first MMO on its first try.

Blizzard failed to even launch Titan. If you dont think thats a much bigger failure than ESO well I can just stop discussing it now.

World #1 for several months and yet the game is "garbage". Got it. Funny thing is I don't recall experiencing a single bug in Diablo 3. No lag, no game instability. The biggest latency issue I ever experienced was in the auction house which they actually *Fixed* before they canned it entirely instead of creating band aids like limiting database requests to one every few seconds per player or splitting auction houses into 500 player maximum groupings. As I said It's not my style of game, spamming left click gets old after about a month of playing and I've never seen a Blizzard forum that wasn't full of whiners but the 2.0 Patch *did* drastically change the game, was kicked off without a major bug and addressed virtually every major issue people had with the game at the time.

ZMI is not ZoS. It's like you're trying to call Activision the same thing as Blizzard just because they merged. The ZoS brand has nothing going for it at all, it's a startup created by ZMI. People don't associate any of those games with ZMI, they associate them with Bethesda who actually developed and Published those games.

Blizzard has a history of cancelling projects that they feel don't meet the standards of their brand. Starcraft: Ghost was another one. Project Titan was a big loss but as I said it also provided the tech the is being used in Overwatch which looks like their best new IP Since StarCraft.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match over the two companies, it is irrelevant. I was merely highlighting the strategies being used by both companies. Blizzard can afford to drop 500 million without a RoI, ZoS can not. Them releasing their console version of this buggy game isn't a strategy, it is a Cash-grab as other have pointed out.

And you must be crazy if you don't think Bethesda isn't working on TES VI. It's their most valuable and profitable IP....and I'll bet you a mint that it isn't going to be an MMO. The Experiment with an MMO in TES world was a failure.

Sylvyr · May 2015

I wonder if ESO console release will go down as one of the biggest console scams in 2015... Maybe scam is a little too harsh. But you know there's going to be a good portion of TES players that will have wtf moments.

Also, just because ESO is produced by a different subsidary (ZoS) doesn't mean it won't affect ZMI or Bethesday.

anitajoneb17_ESO · May 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard can afford to drop 500 million without a RoI, ZoS can not. Them releasing their console version of this buggy game isn't a strategy, it is a Cash-grab as other have pointed out. .../...The Experiment with an MMO in TES world was a failure.

1st part : How do you know ? ZMI certainly sits on a comfortable cash cushion since the success of Skyrim, Fallout and Dishonored. It all depends how much of this cash they want to invest into ESO over time. Again, you no nothing about that.
But I fail to understand what you mean : do you think that ZOS should have considered themselves unhappy with ESO and not launch it at all, cancel it altogether and that would have been a wise strategy and a signal of good financial health... ? ... ? .... ?
And you also seem to mean that console launch is a last-minute desperate decision to produce the desperately needed cash... as far as i know, the game was always planned to be ported to XBoX and PS and it is even high time these versions arrive since they have already been delayed for quite a while. I do not see anything here that could even remotely suggest that console launch is meant to save ZOS from bankrupcy

2nd part : failure ??? where do you see a failure ??? What I see is a game that, while not flawless, is a wonderful creation and has a stable community of players. You see it as a failure and you're entitled to this, but please state it as your own personal opinion and not as a fact.

Minack · May 2015

Sylvyr wrote: »

I wonder if ESO console release will go down as one of the biggest console scams in 2015... Maybe scam is a little too harsh. But you know there's going to be a good portion of TES players that will have wtf moments.

Also, just because ESO is produced by a different subsidary (ZoS) doesn't mean it won't affect ZMI or Bethesday.

hahaha don't give Smedley any ideas. I don't think a single corporate entity could contain so much fail.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

I'm bored right now so Ill play along with your delusional ramblings and refute them point by point.

Ezareth wrote: »

World #1 for several months and yet the game is "garbage". Got it.

I was referencing my standing to represent I wasn't someone who played it for 5 seconds. The game is garbage now and looks nothing like the game that I was #1 on. This is because the game continues to undergo massive rewrites despite taking 10+ years to develop. At the time D3 came out it was the best game available. It no longer holds that status, and so I have stopped playing.

Ezareth wrote: »

Funny thing is I don't recall experiencing a single bug in Diablo 3. No lag, no game instability. The biggest latency issue I ever experienced was in the auction house which they actually *Fixed* before they canned it entirely instead of creating band aids like limiting database requests to one every few seconds per player or splitting auction houses into 500 player maximum groupings. As I said It's not my style of game, spamming left click gets old after about a month of playing and I've never seen a Blizzard forum that wasn't full of whiners but the 2.0 Patch *did* drastically change the game, was kicked off without a major bug and addressed virtually every major issue people had with the game at the time.

Are you just lying here or are you genuinely that un-knowledgeable? The game had major bugs. How about the gold dupe, the massive exploitable paragon leveling that was introduced over multiple patches, where each one had a nasty exploit? How about the item duping via rollback exploits, or the 200 other exploits/bugs that are implemented every patch? I could post more examples here but don't want to waste time schooling you about a game you never really played.

What is painfully evident from your post is that you didn't play D3 much and are basing your information off of conjecture. That is exactly why I posted that I was a former world #1, and to this day my guild <Dragon> still holds most of the US leaderboards. I know what I am talking about and you can see proof of that on the web, whereas you are just talking out of your hind parts.

When I stepped away from ESO, I went and played D3 again. I was still playing and challenging leaderboards, and we would see lag in 4 man games. Perhaps you just never consistently played 4 man Diablo 3 competitively like I did which is why you are unaware of this.

The game is a massive failure from a branding standpoint. Most, if not all players who played D2 feel D3 did not remain true to the vision, something even echoed by the original D2 creator, creating the infamous Jay Wilson meme of "F that loser" . You don't want to debate Diablo 3 with me @Ezareth .The fact is I am an expert on it and you are someone who has played for maybe 20 minutes.

Ezareth wrote: »

ZMI is not ZoS.

Correct, ZMI is the parent of ZoS.

Ezareth wrote: »

It's like you're trying to call Activision the same thing as Blizzard just because they merged.

At the time I believe it was Vivendi and Activision who merged, Vivendi being Blizzard's parent at the time. For someone who "knows people at Blizzard" you continue to get the details wrong about their games and history.

Ezareth wrote: »

The ZoS brand has nothing going for it at all, it's a startup created by ZMI.

It is 1 for 1 on AAA MMO's, which is a better percentage ratio than Blizzard.

Ezareth wrote: »

People don't associate any of those games with ZMI, they associate them with Bethesda who actually developed and Published those games.

OK, if you say so, it must be true. If people are uneducated, that doesn't make the fact that those are ZMI games untrue.

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard has a history of cancelling projects that they feel don't meet the standards of their brand. Starcraft: Ghost was another one. Project Titan was a big loss but as I said it also provided the tech the is being used in Overwatch which looks like their best new IP Since StarCraft.

Hearthstone is their best new IP and its not even debatable. The titan project was a huge loss, that took 7 years to realize. In the same time ESO launched a triple A MMO that you now play exhaustively. That was my whole point in the first place. It's good you now admit Titan was a huge failure that took years to finally acknowledge, despite having all the money and talent in the world available. If Jeff Kaplan couldn't make Titan work, no one could.

Ezareth wrote: »

Blizzard can afford to drop 500 million without a RoI, ZoS can not.

You must be the Activision CFO I keep hearing about, to make a statement about whether or not a company afford to drop $500 mill on an ROI. And you must also be Robert Altman's right hand man Ernie Del since you also know what a private company like ZMI can afford, especially given the fact you have no idea how much was spent on ESO, let alone how much it brought in. Stop posting your uninformed opinions as fact, they are nothing more than false speculation.

Ezareth wrote: »

Them releasing their console version of this buggy game isn't a strategy, it is a Cash-grab as other have pointed out.

And Blizzard's RMAH wasn't? Quit fluffing Blizzard here if you are going to bash another company using well-established game industry tactics. Every studio wants more money out of their games.

Ezareth wrote: »

And you must be crazy if you don't think Bethesda isn't working on TES VI. It's their most valuable and profitable IP....and I'll bet you a mint that it isn't going to be an MMO. The Experiment with an MMO in TES world was a failure.

You sure spend a lot of time on this "Failure". Id somewhat agree MMO's are dying. The model is just decidedly unprofitable with today's technology. Blizzard clearly agrees, which is why they scrapped Titan. I guarantee you Blizzard wasted more money on Titan than ZMI took as a margin hit on ESO.

I won't even comment on the rest, because:

1. You don't know anything about ZMI or Bethesda as evidenced by your posts.
2. Some of us actually do know the stuff in #1 that you aren't informed about.

ZOS_AlanG · May 2015

Hi everyone, this thread has a lot of bashing, baiting, and off topic content, so we are locking it. It’s fine to be critical, to disagree, or debate – but it’s important to keep discussions civil and constructive. As covered in the forum rules and reiterated here, it is important to be respectful, and to refrain from unconstructive commends and attacks.