fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to be in a traditional MMO guild where people join for social reasons and to help each other progress through the game .. sadly ZOS perverted the whole concept of guilds to build this facile excuse for an in-game economy.

^ This.

1000 x This!

I genuinely do not understand or like the idea of being in Multiple Guilds.

A Guild to me is a group of friends who play together because they like having fun and they get along really well.

If I have that in 1 guild why do I need to be in more guilds?

And the answer to that is the appalling bad (from base design to implementation) Guild Trade system.

All The Best

I'm in 5 guilds out of the 5 I can. Two big guilds, one casual guild which I been in for years in other games aswell. My own tiny guild and a guild of a friend.

I am in several guilds and leading 2 where i lead 1 indirect first founded Daggerfall Trade Masters (passed lead to some 1 but he does what i ask so i lead it indirect) with 490+ members online in 5 days.

And now i am the GM of Daggerfall PvP masters a PVP only guild with 490+ members though around 300 are active i just leave the others in incase they return

Also i am in Harrods a big ass trading guild (Always an extra one
Lionguard Alliance for PVP coordinating between guilds.
and 1 spot left which is fine

I have no interest in guilds. Been there, done that, and prefer these days to avoid internal politics, drama queens, and RL cliques along with gold demands and petty rules, all of which I've experienced in the past. I also have no interest in using voice-chat.

Guilds are great for competitive achievers and socialisers, but I'm well into my sixties and don't play MMOs for those things any more. I'd like to be able to sell stuff but refuse to be forced into guilds for that and so just sell anything I don't need to NPC merchants.

In one social guild and 4 trade guilds. I find this is a great set up.

Shout out to the Blades of Vengance NA Server.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to be in a traditional MMO guild where people join for social reasons and to help each other progress through the game .. sadly ZOS perverted the whole concept of guilds to build this facile excuse for an in-game economy.

^ This.

1000 x This!

I genuinely do not understand or like the idea of being in Multiple Guilds.

A Guild to me is a group of friends who play together because they like having fun and they get along really well.

If I have that in 1 guild why do I need to be in more guilds?

And the answer to that is the appalling bad (from base design to implementation) Guild Trade system.

All The Best

Disagree, it works well. I liked being in 2 or 3 social guilds at one time. I figure out which ones really are active, and which ones heavily over-promised when they recruited me.

I eventually found a great guild in the Misfitz. I now only really work with the members of this guild.

Three Main Guilds:

1. Social/Casual PVE/PVP (those whom I'd consider my closest "friends" within the game)
2. Hardcore PVE - so I can stay up to date on mechanics/competitive on leaderboards
3. Hardcore PVP - I love the 20 vs 60 approach with a solid team, flanking sieges, holding pressure points etc. As a Templar Healer I get bored of running smaller groups (less than 8) it wastes my build potential and gets old quick on slow nights.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Not in any guilds.

I was in guilds during all my former MMOs though and did lead two to a top spot on tournaments, but todays generation just takes away all the fun of being in a guild. It starts with TS and ends with Addons and min / maxing, attendances to trials or even paying gold to join.

Too often did I come back after a months break and found myself kicked or young ones shouting in TS how someone failed and they now lost out on an epic.

Gaming companies made big mistakes in how they implemented guilds. Joining a guild should never reward you with items, trade slots, bank slots or vanity loot. It should be a voluntary thing and not a forced one. Guilds have become so hostile and unsocial as every members activity and time influences the success and rewards for all members.
Back in the days we invited people we liked to our guilds and still won tournaments. Today you must file a long application first, then go to a interview on TS and then get a hundred rules to follow. That's just nothing for me, so I stay solo

Wow, none of that has been my experience with guilds. In any game. In ESO I co-lead an RP guild with my husband, belong to 2 other RP guilds, a trade guild and a PvP guild. In our guild's mumble there is always a good deal of laughing and goofing off. And yes we run pledges and other content consistently and even if we are having a hard time of it for whatever reason, no one gets bent out of shape or nasty with each other. We have over 100 members, of which I'd say close to 80 are active. We run the gamut on ages from very early 20's to a few folks in their 50s. I think we may have as many female players as males. We absolutely don't censor our guild chat and the only thing we don't allow are personal attacks, name calling, racism, sexism, or anti-LGBT BS. We are a "mature" guild that is anything but! LOL

Anyway, I can see why you would avoid guilds if that has been your experience but it really seems to me as if you've just had a run of bad luck and/or have been playing with people who play for all the wrong reasons. I play to have fun, not because I get any sense of self esteem by "beating the game." I surround myself with folks who feel the same way. Try it some time, you'll be pleasantly surprised.

^this

Alphashado wrote: »

On the other hand, if you view being social by it's very nature as an uncomfortable activity that you would rather not be involved with under any circumstances, then... why play an MMO? Why intentionally subject yourself to an environment that makes you uncomfortable?

Primary school error of reasoning.

I've seen it so many times I truly despair that it still crops up at all.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online.

It means there as lots of players online simultaneously.

There is NOTHING in the concept of an MMO that requires players to group up.

In fact there's a quote somewhere by one of ESO's lead designers explicitly stating that if you want to play solo that is just fine the game will cater to that style of play as well.

But it doesn't.

All The Best

Alphashado wrote: »

Obviously via your own quote, you know that an MMO is an environment designed around hundreds of thousands or even millions of other people. You know that the primary target audience for these games are people that enjoy being in a social environment. You clearly know all of this ahead of time, yet you still force yourself into this environment and expect it to conform to your anti-social preferences.

If you enjoy playing solo in an environment designed around social activity, that's just fine. But to come into a social environment being fully aware that it's a social environment, then be unhappy that you are in a social environment is... well it's self inflicted torture.

I am in a guild in every other MMO I play.

I have no problem with guilds at all.

I am not unhappy that ESO is a social environment.

However I do have a major problem needing to join a guild to trade, joining a guild should always be optional and choosing not to do so shouldn't impose a barrier to something as intrinsic to an MMORPG as trading.

And then because trade guilds are primarily about trading I need to join another guild for PvE, and maybe another for PvP and then a 4th for RP, and just because the trade system is so utterly useless I may need to join a 5th to be able to trade as much as I would like.

Fix trading so that any given player only ever needs to be in one guild to do it, and the guild wouldn't have to concentrate on trade at the expense of other aspects of the game.

You highlight the social function of guilds.

I agree that is exactly what they are about.

But I suggest to you that any MMO that from the get-go has the facility for each player to join multiple guilds doesn't care one iota about the social aspect of what a guild is; and that guilds are being used in lieu of something else, something that is missing from another part of the game - in this case a functional trade system.

In most MMOs I have played I choose to play solo until my 1st toon is nearing end-game; then I think about joining a guild and maybe starting some Alts.

In no other MMO would be doing that prevent me from trading. In ESO it does.

And frankly any game-designer who thought that was a good idea really has no business working on an MMO.

All The Best

I'm in a large trading guild and I co-lead a very small PvE guild.

Alphashado wrote: »

I find the results of this poll very interesting. Particularly the individuals that refuse to join a guild and the view points/stances those same individuals have taken on various issues/topics in the past.

There are a million games in the world that are designed to be played alone. Why anyone would come to a game designed to be played socially if they have no desire to be social is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

Guilds are just like people. Some are good, some are bad. Searching for a guild that matches your individual tastes is all part of being in a social environment. You may have to look around for a while before you find a guild/guild(s) you are comfortable with, but eventually you will. It's no different than looking for different grocery stores, hair salons, or night clubs. Some will match your taste, and some will not.

On the other hand, if you view being social by it's very nature as an uncomfortable activity that you would rather not be involved with under any circumstances, then... why play an MMO? Why intentionally subject yourself to an environment that makes you uncomfortable?

Even more so, how can it be justified to expect this environment to conform to you?

I'll happily respond to this as I imagine my earlier post may well have been one of those you're talking about.

There are all sorts of ways of interacting with other players beyond grouping and guilding with them, especially in ESO where formal grouping is often unnecessary and co-operative play represents a popular way of dealing with e.g. dolmens and public dungeons. I enjoy the informality of co-operative play very much, as well as chatting, helping out on a "drive-by" basis etc.

I explained in my earlier reply that I am well into my sixties and don't feel the need to play MMOs for the same reasons of competitive and social gameplay that I found compelling back in the late 1990s when I ran guilds and kingdoms etc. For one thing, I'm far too busy in my retirement to be able to make any regular commitment to game communities or to fit in play sessions longer than typically 30 to 60 minutes at a time.

I may not be around then, but it'll be interesting to see how many of the social types here are still enjoying "goofing around on Mumble" and all the associated activities they enjoy presently when they too are in their sixties. I suspect that many will then regard cyber socialising with players 40 or 50 years younger than them in much the same way that I do, although I would stress, however, that I fully enjoy the whole atmosphere and evolutionary development of MMOs and contribute to the multi-player aspect in my own various ways. I certainly don't criticise or denigrate the younger players in any way at all, but the difference in outlook when there is such an age gap is undeniable.

Single-player games don't appeal in the same way, and tend to be "finished" in a couple of weeks whereas there are a number of MMOs I am still playing after a good few years because they have never stopped evolving.

Bad guild experiences also have a bearing on some of those who choose not to involve themselves in those things nowadays, as evidenced in several comments here. I'd rather play MMOs my way than spend my time looking around for a while before I find a guild or guilds I'm comfortable in. Most importantly, of course, I am not remotely uncomfortable playing MMOs as a guildless player, but I can well understand the added layer of social enjoyment that belonging to a decent guild can bring to those who do look for that in their gaming, as it did in a different phase of my own life.

As for your last point, I don't personally expect this environment to conform to me, beyond the expectation that MMOs should generally cater for a variety of play-styles. However, I do expect a modern MMORPG to have a viable trading system, hence my criticisms in other threads of the present guild trading system which fails many sellers and buyers alike, regardless of whether they are in one guild, five guilds, or none. I also, incidentally, believe that the concept of being able/expected to join multiple guilds in itself weakens the community and defeats much of the social cohesion that was central to being committed to a single guild back in the days when that was my scene.

Tandor wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

I find the results of this poll very interesting. Particularly the individuals that refuse to join a guild and the view points/stances those same individuals have taken on various issues/topics in the past.

There are a million games in the world that are designed to be played alone. Why anyone would come to a game designed to be played socially if they have no desire to be social is absolutely beyond my comprehension.

Guilds are just like people. Some are good, some are bad. Searching for a guild that matches your individual tastes is all part of being in a social environment. You may have to look around for a while before you find a guild/guild(s) you are comfortable with, but eventually you will. It's no different than looking for different grocery stores, hair salons, or night clubs. Some will match your taste, and some will not.

On the other hand, if you view being social by it's very nature as an uncomfortable activity that you would rather not be involved with under any circumstances, then... why play an MMO? Why intentionally subject yourself to an environment that makes you uncomfortable?

Even more so, how can it be justified to expect this environment to conform to you?

I'll happily respond to this as I imagine my earlier post may well have been one of those you're talking about.

There are all sorts of ways of interacting with other players beyond grouping and guilding with them, especially in ESO where formal grouping is often unnecessary and co-operative play represents a popular way of dealing with e.g. dolmens and public dungeons. I enjoy the informality of co-operative play very much, as well as chatting, helping out on a "drive-by" basis etc.

I explained in my earlier reply that I am well into my sixties and don't feel the need to play MMOs for the same reasons of competitive and social gameplay that I found compelling back in the late 1990s when I ran guilds and kingdoms etc. For one thing, I'm far too busy in my retirement to be able to make any regular commitment to game communities or to fit in play sessions longer than typically 30 to 60 minutes at a time.

I may not be around then, but it'll be interesting to see how many of the social types here are still enjoying "goofing around on Mumble" and all the associated activities they enjoy presently when they too are in their sixties. I suspect that many will then regard cyber socialising with players 40 or 50 years younger than them in much the same way that I do, although I would stress, however, that I fully enjoy the whole atmosphere and evolutionary development of MMOs and contribute to the multi-player aspect in my own various ways. I certainly don't criticise or denigrate the younger players in any way at all, but the difference in outlook when there is such an age gap is undeniable.

Single-player games don't appeal in the same way, and tend to be "finished" in a couple of weeks whereas there are a number of MMOs I am still playing after a good few years because they have never stopped evolving.

Bad guild experiences also have a bearing on some of those who choose not to involve themselves in those things nowadays, as evidenced in several comments here. I'd rather play MMOs my way than spend my time looking around for a while before I find a guild or guilds I'm comfortable in. Most importantly, of course, I am not remotely uncomfortable playing MMOs as a guildless player, but I can well understand the added layer of social enjoyment that belonging to a decent guild can bring to those who do look for that in their gaming, as it did in a different phase of my own life.

As for your last point, I don't personally expect this environment to conform to me, beyond the expectation that MMOs should generally cater for a variety of play-styles. However, I do expect a modern MMORPG to have a viable trading system, hence my criticisms in other threads of the present guild trading system which fails many sellers and buyers alike, regardless of whether they are in one guild, five guilds, or none. I also, incidentally, believe that the concept of being able/expected to join multiple guilds in itself weakens the community and defeats much of the social cohesion that was central to being committed to a single guild back in the days when that was my scene.

I can understand and relate with much of what you say. I am no spring chicken myself after all, as I am into my 40s. But there are plenty of guilds with older crowds now. Many of us that grew up with Atari and the original Sega/Nintendo platforms are now into middle age and will likely be gamers until we die. It's not as taboo as it used to be. So there are plenty of older gamers our there that enjoy hanging out with each other. Most of the people in ESO that I hang around with are well over 30 years old, have jobs and families and mortgages.

So while I certainly understand your point of view, I would suggest keeping an open mind about guilds in general as they are evolving to match the more diversified age demographics in gaming now.

Titansteele wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to be in a traditional MMO guild where people join for social reasons and to help each other progress through the game .. sadly ZOS perverted the whole concept of guilds to build this facile excuse for an in-game economy.

My guild is built and run in the same way we have for years in different games and aims to uphold that ethos.

Mine was built that way also. Same guild I have had since 2000 in EQ and then in WoW. Too bad the large majority of my guild has quit or gone back to other MMOs and trying to recruit without being a trading guild is a PITA and not worth the effort. So I'm leader of a mostly inactive guild (outside of a handful of players) and a member of 4 trading guilds. I really don't like this system at all as I think it goes against the grain of what a guild is about. There is little loyalty or cohesion in this system and the trader system encourages a guild hopping mentality or at the very least discontent when traders are inevitably lost in the blind bidding system.