Regarding this morning’s hotfix

NickolaiAlaric · April 2015

When ESO was first announced, both me and my gf were excited as hell. We pre-ordered Imperial Editions as soon as we could, and played the game regularly for about 3 months, at which point we quit due to horribly poor and boring quests which were nearly identical across every zone, with the exception of the main story and the main storyline, and we only got to level ~30 in those 3 months of questing, completing every zone and doing everything.

When Tamriel Unlimited started, we came back. We were pissed that all our 'limited' content was now sold for a third of the price we bought it for, but we decided to give the game a try. We played a bit and again started dying of boredom from the quest grind. Then we found the Crab spot by accident and leveled to 50 in a couple hours. It was amazing, we both quickly got back into the game and started playing it 5+ hours a day. We leveled Templars to 50 in 3 days thought this grind(even though it's fast, this grind is mind-numbingly boring and requires a lot of attention when you do it with only 2 people). Again, amazed, we're level 50 with all the skills we want unlocked, we are able to do end content(mostly), level veteran ranks, quest just for immersion, do delves/dungeons/achievements and not for the low exp it gives, but because it is FUN. We started grinding with 2 Nightblades as well, even though it was much harder, and got to level 32 before the hotfix.

Now, this might have been considered an 'exploit', but it got both me and my gf to start playing ESO regularly again, to spend money on Crown Store mounts, quest, run dungeons, farm materials, trade, craft etc. Simply because we no longer needed to spend months grinding quests just to get to the part of the game where it becomes the most fun. We also planned to level more characters like this, keep playing, spend more of our money and time on the game, and the best part is, this did not hurt ANYONE. Bethesda/ZoS got money, other players get more interaction with other players. And now this happens.

And we're on the verge of just quitting again, because we do not want to do boring stuff for months just to get to the fun part with new characters.

I get it, it might be 'unfair', or too fast. But lets face it, some people hate leveling up with a grind and want to enjoy the full game on max level in their own way. The crab grind actually gave people a choice. Grind quests for weeks/months or grind crabs for 1-3 days.

Taking this option away and forcing me to experience this game as a chore WILL NOT make me spend money on ESO plus membership, rings of Mara or experience potions just so I could grind quests for 2 instead of 3 weeks. It wont make me stay with the game longer. This WILL most likely make me quit the game and never spend a cent or any time on it again.

If you want to make your game a chore by eliminating different play options for two different communities(those who enjoy slow and those who enjoy fast leveling), don't be surprised the game dies a slow, painful death. Which, judging by the switch from subscription to buy-to-play in a year, already started happening.

Grao · April 2015

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

We recognize that there are grinding spots in the game, and we don't have a problem with those who choose to grind to level up. That said, there have been areas that offer significantly more experience than was worth through weak mob kills and exploits, to the extent that other leveling strategies become moot. We just want to ensure that each leveling strategy remains as valid as the other. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get the details from you regarding why you like or dislike something so do not hesitate to provide us with constructive feedback!

Lets pretend we believe you...

Actually, lets not. ZoS has pushed out so many of this stealthy nerfs to grind spots lately that it became the usual to have patcher bugs every morning. It is ridiculous.

As for keeping leveling methods relevant, why not buff your quests so they are actually rewarding? Might as well refresh the gear reward because everything we get from quests go straight to decomp or vendor. Even trial gear is trash this days!

Teargrants · April 2015

Guys let this be a lesson to you, this is what happens when you post details of your grind spots on the forums and make it public knowledge.

Maotti · April 2015

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

We recognize that there are grinding spots in the game, and we don't have a problem with those who choose to grind to level up. That said, there have been areas that offer significantly more experience than was worth through weak mob kills and exploits, to the extent that other leveling strategies become moot. We just want to ensure that each leveling strategy remains as valid as the other. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get the details from you regarding why you like or dislike something so do not hesitate to provide us with constructive feedback!

I have a very good idea! Start selling instant VR14 boosters in crown store that you can buy when you become VR1, because this veteran grind in general is just way too boring. I just want to do endgame stuff with alts instead of just main and another VR14 of the same class.

psicorpb16_ESO · April 2015

Totally agree with @Samuel_Bantien I stopped playing seriously months ago yet still subbing. Love the game but just cannot bring myself to level another character until Vet lvls are reworked. Stopped at VR6 and hoping things will change one day. I don't mind spending the money but would really like to know that something is planned for the future.

UrQuan · April 2015

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

We recognize that there are grinding spots in the game, and we don't have a problem with those who choose to grind to level up. That said, there have been areas that offer significantly more experience than was worth through weak mob kills and exploits, to the extent that other leveling strategies become moot. We just want to ensure that each leveling strategy remains as valid as the other. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get the details from you regarding why you like or dislike something so do not hesitate to provide us with constructive feedback!

@ZOS_ArtG here's my constructive feedback (keeping in mind that I totally agree about the Fungal Grotto exploit and nerf), quoted from another thread some time ago:

UrQuan wrote: »

I've posted about this in various threads about various related topics, but I thought I'd start a new thread to make it easy to find, and where we can hopefully consolidate our ideas about XP progression across different playstyles.

First off: ESO is supposed to be "play how you like." I know that gets trotted out all the time, taken way out of context, and applied to all kinds of ridiculous things. Still, I think it's relevant here. As far as I'm concerned, there are several broad categories of ESO players (with overlap between them), and I feel like each of these categories should be able to play their preferred way of playing without feeling like they are cheating themselves out of XP and progression. I think this is particularly important with the introduction of CPs.

Second, I don't think that the XP earned through all of these playstyles has to be completely even - that would be pretty much impossible to achieve, and there's nothing wrong with one playstyle earning somewhat more than another. They should all be comparable though. If you spend an hour doing X you shouldn't receive double or triple the XP that you would if you spent that hour doing Y, but it's OK if you still earn more.

So here are the broad categories of ESO players that I see (keeping in mind that there is overlap between them):

PvE: these players primarily play PvE, either solo or in groups. Most of their game time is spent questing, exploring, doing delves.

PvP: these players primarily play PvP, either solo or in groups.

Grinders: these players level up by grinding mobs, either solo or in groups. This is usually an intermediate stage, as they're probably just doing it to level up in order to be more powerful for another activity, but some people are actually just doing this because they enjoy grinding.

Raiders: these players primarily run group dungeons and trials.

If I've missed any categories, hopefully someone will point out what I've missed. Well, I know I've missed RPers, but I don't really see how you could have a system for gaining XP through RPing... If I'm wrong about that, feel free to point it out.

Currently it seems like, of those categories, the only ones that are really viable for gaining XP are PvE questing and grinding, with grinding spots frequently being nerfed. To my mind this is a problem. It's not really a problem for me personally as a player, because PvE questing is what I enjoy spending most of my time doing, but I still consider it a problem, because not every player feels that way, and if we make the other playstyles much less efficient ways of progressing in XP and CPs, then we're going to be driving away large segments of the player base who feel like they have to engage in activities that they don't really like in order to stay competitive.

So what's the solution? I don't think there is a single solution, but here are some suggestions.

Grind spots: Grinders gonna grind. ZOS seems to constantly nerf various grind spots. In cases where there were actual exploits involved, or where XP gains were vastly higher than they should be, there's nothing wrong with this. What is a problem is when places are getting nerfed across the board. Why should all of Craglorn be nerfed? Why should all mobs in delves be nerfed? Many PvE questers complain about grinders ruining their immersion and killing all the mobs in an area where they're trying to complete a quest, or a delve, or an achievement. I agree that this can be a problem, but the solution isn't to nerf the mob XP or spawn rate in those areas. The solution is to create a few designated grind spots (I think 2 per full zone) with good mob density and respawn rates. These grind spots would have no quests associated with them, and no achievements. There might be a note somewhere or something else that explains why those mobs are infesting the area, but otherwise there would be no story or anything in the area. This way grinders have a spot where they can go grind effectively without interfering with PvE questers. Anybody who isn't interested in grinding really has reason to go to these spots. It's win-win.

PvE Questing: when grind spots are added as in the suggestion given above, just un-nerf mob XP in delves and other places where they've been nerfed. I don't see that anything else needs to be done for this playstyle.

Raid XP on a sliding scale: OK, someone who knows more about the habits of raiders would have to add more detail to this idea, but I think everyone can agree that the XP rewards for the group dungeons and trials are currently way too low to make raiding a viable method of gaining XP and CPs. I can understand why ZOS doesn't want people gaining massive XP just running the same dungeon over and over, because at the same time they're grinding out top quality endgame gear. What if XP for group dungeons and trials was increased significantly for the first time you complete a given dungeon/trial, and then proportionally reduced each subsequent time you complete it within a certain time period? So (and these numbers may be way off from what would make sense - I'm just throwing something out there for illustration) maybe the first time you complete Dungeon A you get double the XP you currently get. The next time you get 1.5X what you currently get, then the next time the same as what you currently get, then 0.75X what you currently get, then 0.5X what you currently get, and so on. Every 24 hours you go back up one category. If you want to maximize your XP, you cycle through all of the dungeons before doing any of them a second time within a 24 hour period.

PvP: I don't know, PvP XP somehow needs to be increased, but as I really don't PvP I don't have any suggestions on how to do it without introducing exploits. Hopefully someone else can chime in on this.

Thoughts, criticisms, other suggestions?

Another idea that came out of that thread (because it was pointed out that if everyone who wants to grind is grinding in the same overland spots all the time, then you start to get diminishing returns) was the concept of having daily grind quests. These would be something like this (which was me building on an idea by @Fizzlewizzle ):

UrQuan wrote: »

It could be a 4-person group quest given by the fighter's guild as an extermination mission they've been contracted to do. You grab the quest, go through the portal that they open for you, and slaughter everything in the instance (no respawning mobs - just a lot of them with good density, and it's scaled like group dungeons are). You exit the portal, and if all mobs are killed (there would be a kill counter for the quest that tells you when they are all dead) you turn the quest in to your fighter's guild contact and get your quest reward (probably just the standard quest gold & XP for your level).

There could be a bunch of different ones each dealing with different mob types, and it's random which one the fighter's guild gives out on any given day. One might be clearing out an infestation of undead from a large graveyard. One might be exterminating a goblin tribe that has taken over a valley. One might be wiping out a group of pirates who are based out of an island.

UrQuan · April 2015

Teargrants wrote: »

Guys let this be a lesson to you, this is what happens when you post details of your grind spots on the forums and make it public knowledge.

Yeah, because I'm sure they didn't know about this exploit (not a grind, an exploit) before anyone posted it on the forums... I'm sure they looked at all of these groups of people constantly in Fungal Grotto, and at all the people spamming /zone looking for level 49s to do Fungal Grotto with and just said "nothing to see here".

Robbmrp · April 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are the people using these exploits actually getting their levels dropped down, or just a "slap on the wrist" if that? I cannot think of a better way to reprimand someone using an exploit than to remove all the experience/items they received from it. These people should be easily identifiable. People like this will continue to find and take advantage of exploit after exploit if there are NO REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS......

Mother_Goose · April 2015

Hey there-

I have played since early beta weekends, through early release and to current with a couple months off recently prior to 2.0. I have a full lineup of characters including vets (up to v14). I am a completionist and typically have to find every quest in a zone and every boss and trophy etc.

So- I have done the content. Then again. And again. Because I wanted to explore race/class combinations.

But I am bored and tired of it- thus my time off. I am back to play to explore the new bits, but honestly I just don't have it in me to level up through questing AGAIN. The grind spots have been nerfed. I would LOVE something like crabs for everyone who has run a vet all the way to V14 and hit all the zones. ZOS gets it's way and you ensure players have done content, but people wanting alts can do it relatively painlessly. Seems fair to me.

Would this be a fair compromise?

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · April 2015

It's like you guys never played MMO before in the past where grinding in one location for the rest of your life isn't something that will remain forever.

If it's too good, never expect it to be intended. It's either a glitch or a bug that unless it's something like "99999 exp mob", it will probably have no consequences.

Every MMO I played, every great grind spot is either nerfed to the ground or is locked behind a paywall because they were made by Korean company so it was obvious they were all going to be P2W and by great, I mean 100x faster, not 2-3x. LBR, ESO grinding is a lot easier and less time consuming than most game unless you're really aiming for that 3.6k CPs.

I understand that we want the grind and everything outside ESO to be derpeasy like the offline game since we're used to modding and consoling for the sake of fun but please, this is an MMO so don't treat it like the other ES games.

Arx Corinium and Tempest Island are still 1 level every 20-25 minutes so why not give those place a chance and just admit it that 1 level every 5 minutes is BS.

RealRobD · April 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are the people using these exploits actually getting their levels dropped down, or just a "slap on the wrist" if that? I cannot think of a better way to reprimand someone using an exploit than to remove all the experience/items they received from it. These people should be easily identifiable. People like this will continue to find and take advantage of exploit after exploit if there are NO REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS......

I in no way condone exploits, but I'd like you to list the various ways in which this has so drastically affected your life?

I thought so.

Suru · April 2015

Grao wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

Oh, come on Gina... Even you don't believe that >.>

Seriously, ZOS has been nerfing every single grind spot that gets known thinking that will force players to play more and stay longer in the game. It will have the oposite effect. I never log on my alts because it is just too freaking boring to level them up... I logged on for hours once I learned about the FG grind... Now those characters will once again be relegate to bag carriers. Great...

She just stated they acknowledge mob grinding spots. When you look at the spots now it is all competitive and can be contested. but by those standards, Spellscar shouldnt of been nerfed.

And yet it was nerfed to the ground.

Now, I understand nerfing spots used to grind champion points, but leveling grind spots >.> Come on, many of us have already gone through all the story line at least once, we just don't want to be forced to do it over again to play another role.

They acknowledge grind spots but not grind spots like this one which were obviously exploits. I'm glad it was nerfed in the end, with past history I knew it was coming and enjoyed it while it lasted.

tengri · April 2015

Sooo... you fixed an exploit. Good for you us.
And... did you "fix" those who abused it, too, while you were at it?
Or was this handled the usual way... letting them happily carry home and keep everything they achieved there while the exploit was active?

LtCrunch · April 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

Sadly there are some that will argue with the fact this grind was a blatant exploit just like The first vet Spindleclutch boss, Rkund, the shadow or the Scorpion "grinds". That being said with all of the band-aid fixes Craglorn really is a mess. I get more XP for killing a single NPC enemy in Cyrodiil than I do for killing a boss in Craglorn. Will this ever be addressed? As it stands even doing Craglorn as intended is a slap in the face in terms of XP.

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO · April 2015

People demanding "Punishment" for those that "Exploited" this need to remember that

in an MMO, there are many kind of exploits and this fall under the "Light" kind.

Light kind usually involves stuffs like "You grind twice or thrice at fast compared to the other faster method" like this one that earns you 3-4x the rate of those that grind in Tempest Island or Arx. These kind usually has no punishment.

What exactly did they earn from grinding crab? Nothing except reaching like vet 4 before having to run through every content anyway to unlock maps. It doesn't break the game but also does not deserve to remain. If it does break the game then it will go into the "Heavy" kind and that is where punishments happen.

Emma_Overload · April 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are the people using these exploits actually getting their levels dropped down, or just a "slap on the wrist" if that? I cannot think of a better way to reprimand someone using an exploit than to remove all the experience/items they received from it. These people should be easily identifiable. People like this will continue to find and take advantage of exploit after exploit if there are NO REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS......

#1) How do YOU know which people were grinding those spots by dumb luck and which ones were hardcore "exploiters" or whatever? How could anyone, including ZoS, prove any such thing?

#2) These so-called exploiters have ALREADY been punished by the fact that their grind spot got shut down. Anything else is just overkill.

Father · April 2015

TBH I hate questing more than grinding at least when you grind you discover how to dps effectively and try out different skills and morphs since this is way faster than turning in a stupid quest that doesn't return all the boring running and the boring conversations...I stopped even listening to game effects and conversations my game is on mute and I turn on my own music.

I speak for myself..all I want is to get to ENDGAME faster so I can enjoy all the cool hardcore stuff and pvp with full potential with my guildmates with a new class and a suitable race and a v14 gear. thats it. I don't wanna do craglorn dailies and I'm bored of undaunted quest the gold key isn't worth it for me, nowdays I just do these to help guildmates and even then I feel like I'm forcing myself to do it LoL.

So content is old and boring,Gear didn't change much. Champion system on the other hand with new class skill changes did refresh the game..so whats wrong with enjoying a new class with a new build FASTER without the boring part >.>

UrQuan · April 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the hotfix performed today in Fungal Grotto was to fix an exploit, not a regular grind spot. There were players using this exploit to level way faster than intended, and it needed to be addressed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are the people using these exploits actually getting their levels dropped down, or just a "slap on the wrist" if that? I cannot think of a better way to reprimand someone using an exploit than to remove all the experience/items they received from it. These people should be easily identifiable. People like this will continue to find and take advantage of exploit after exploit if there are NO REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS......

#1) How do YOU know which people were grinding those spots by dumb luck and which ones were hardcore "exploiters" or whatever? How could anyone, including ZoS, prove any such thing?

#2) These so-called exploiters have ALREADY been punished by the fact that their grind spot got shut down. Anything else is just overkill.

Honestly, it's easy to know who was just hitting those spots by dumb luck, and who was exploiting. Look at how many times they did that grind. If it's more than a reasonable number (maybe half a dozen times total over a period of a week, or more than 2 or 3 times in a single day) then they were obviously intentionally exploiting it.

As far as consequences go, I've heard that for some previous exploits some of the people caught abusing them were subject to rollbacks. No idea if that's true or just a rumour though.

redspecter23 · April 2015

The leveling methods aren't really all that bad. It's the MASSIVE VOID of content after the V10 zone that really kills it. Why ZoS decided to raise the level cap beyond V10 to V12 without the content to back it up in the first place is a mind boggler. I can almost understand the reasoning because Craglorn was released. Why they did it again from V12 to V14 is the real messed up thing. Craglorn: Part 2 does NOT have enough content to justify 2 million more xp.

Vet zones 1 through 10 are worth about 1 vet level each. Craglorn is apparently worth 4 all on its own.

Psychobunni · April 2015

Let me first say I didn't know about this until these threads came to the forum about the fix. However, the players that did and used it, simply used a mechanic in the game. All they did was repeatedly kill something and get the xp ZOS had it set for at the time. If they had used some coding/bots/macros....then maybe you could scream for their heads.....but they didn't, so stop it.

Their leveling faster than you effects you zero. except maybe in pvp...and who are you kidding? If you aren't maxed, you are likely to die anyway. This constant "omg, they leveled faster than me, nerf it, ban em" yada yada...is what has made this game so freaking boring for some players and if it were fun, and exciting, and kept people busy....ESO would not be B2P.

My constructive criticism is +1 @UrQuan ZOS. Encompass ALL players and give them all something to do they feel like is worth their time. Be an MMO and not Skyrim with friends. Accept that some players will never care about the story and just want to fast track, accept that for some players one play through is enough. Build the MMO that has something for every player and you'll have more players than you know what to do with.

And think about CP brackets for PVP, because if this game lasts say 5 years....a new player isn't going to even bother if they a stuck with people no matter how well they play, they are just fodder. Much like a lvl 30 heads to non vet instead of vet camps.

UrQuan · April 2015

Psychobunni wrote: »

And think about CP brackets for PVP, because if this game lasts say 5 years....a new player isn't going to even bother if they a stuck with people no matter how well they play, they are just fodder. Much like a lvl 30 heads to non vet instead of vet camps.

Say, that's a good idea. I'm not sure exactly how the logistics of it would work, but it's definitely worth exploring as the CP gap between those with the most and those without any increases.

RealRobD · April 2015

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

We recognize that there are grinding spots in the game, and we don't have a problem with those who choose to grind to level up. That said, there have been areas that offer significantly more experience than was worth through weak mob kills and exploits, to the extent that other leveling strategies become moot. We just want to ensure that each leveling strategy remains as valid as the other. In order to continue making improvements to our game, it's important that we get the details from you regarding why you like or dislike something so do not hesitate to provide us with constructive feedback!

All methods except for exploits are "valid" if you actually provide some decent XP. Quests give lame XP, mobs give lame XP, group dungeons give lame XP, public dungeons give lame XP, delves give lame XP. See the trend here? Nothing gives good XP anymore because you nerfed it all in a ridiculous attempt to keep people playing via a crappy grind. Oh and of course the incoming XP pots. People left in droves before, people will leave in droves again.

Here's your constructive feedback: Remove the towering XP wall that everyone has to beat their head against, and you'll see the game actually prosper. Blizzard did this exact thing and oh geez look their numbers are back up again. Until then it will remain what it is now, a Buy To Play, Crown Store cash grab. I'm guessing in less than a years time ESO will be on cruise control if vet ranks are not removed asap or overall XP gains adjusted.

Nifty2g · April 2015

bring back spider grind

Bars · April 2015

lol bring back/out something atm its like watching paint dry

djnapstyb14_ESO · April 2015

This got nerfed because it was too widely being abused. Been hearing about it all over zone chat for weeks, and nobody wanted to run legit dungeons. If you want to keep your crazy grinds don't blow up the spot.

Victus · April 2015

NickolaiAlaric wrote: »

If you want to make your game a chore by eliminating different play options for two different communities(those who enjoy slow and those who enjoy fast leveling)...

I don't think anybody enjoys "slow levelling". People might not mind questing all over again, and exploring, and choosing different dialogue on quests they've done before. I've stated elsewhere that I've been playing a stamina DK alt and seems to be levelling pretty quickly, but I think that is mainly because I am enjoying the playstyle immensely.

Father wrote:

I speak for myself..all I want is to get to ENDGAME faster so I can enjoy all the cool hardcore stuff and pvp with full potential with my guildmates with a new class and a suitable race and a v14 gear.

That's fine, I like the fact you said that you speak for yourself. There are probably some builds where I'd just want to get to endgame faster too, but at the same time I kind of like playing around with the different class/skill setup, seeing what combination of abilities I want on my bar, and learning how to play the class than just getting to endgame ASAP. But, different strokes for different folks.

Father · April 2015

I miss the old Hircine grind back when they launched craglorn :<

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2015

there should be some form of grind spot opened to accounts that have vr14's, a special arena or something that gives a insane amount of xp to allow the leveling of alts, maybe a short, fun pve arena story to go along with it

only available to those with vr14's though, that way people still experience the full game, although it shouldnt be a shortcut to a new vr14, maybe vr6 or vr8

blabafat · April 2015

Lifsteinn wrote: »

The one thing I don't like about leveling in this game: Grinding is (at least) four times faster than normal gameplay.

I don't care if they nerf or buff grind spots, I just want the normal gameplay to be at least in the same pace as grinding. THEN you can really choose what you want to do.

Before someone rages, I also don't like the time needed to get to level cap from questing, too much.

Yes they should buff the alternatives instead of nerfing

Ashigaru · April 2015

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

RealRobD wrote: »

zeitzbachrwb17_ESO wrote: »

It does need to be nerfed. It was stupid and removed the choice to run any other dungeon.

Tempest island is still great for exp and so is Arx Cortinumblah in Shadow Fen.

And FG is still a viable grinding spot if you just clear the first two wave, switch to tempest and clear the beach of the Lamia (you don't need friend for that if you're a templar or range attacking) then go back to FG that is reseted.

You're wrong. Nothing in this game gives good XP. Working as intended. Buy some XP potions, ™Soon.

Why do you think Blizzard put heirlooms in the game? People that love alts also hate the grind. And this game is one major grind. Instead of doing something similar, Zo$ goes for the cash grab option, reduce XP then introduce XP potions in the CS.
This is Zo$ only thinking of themselves. Blizzard thinks about themselves, BUT also thinks about the players. Greed is disgusting!

Of course we want leveling the 5th character is more arduous than the first. That's the reason xp pots will be added.

However, the fact is that leveling a character is easier now than the first couple months the game came out. Hands down faster and easier. I find it humorous people complaining about it. My guess is they didn't level up a character to end game before th first leveling nerf.

It's also easier to level now that before 1.6, significantly easier. XP pots juts add to that. Zo$, lol

WTB Forced player content to destroy this game like veteran ranks already have. I'm working on my SIXTH character in which I intend to get to Veteran Rank 14. The only reason this game feels easier is because we have come to understand how to play. Going on today, grinding is less effective than it was before 1.6 due to the standardized ultimate generation. In 1.5, players had all the necessary tools to get to "endgame" as fast as they could. No Ultimate Generation cap, Veteran Rank mobs were nerfed in an earlier patch, and it only took around 7 hours to hit level 50 if you had the mind to do it. It would only take an hour to hit the next Veteran Rank, but now in 1.6 with the standardized ultimate regeneration, this has taken essentially 3 times longer, maybe even longer because I have not started yet, but with the feedback given from multiple threads, leveling/questing the normal way is a nightmare.

Players who have come back are quitting again because of how "grindy" veteran ranks feel. You need 1 million exp to level up per Veteran Rank. There is 0 content from Veteran Rank 10 - 14, and most players will not take a Veteran Rank 10 to dungeons, so now players are forced to grind even further in Cyrodiil. If players felt like questing the same quests on their alts, they're much better off going back to play Skyrim or Oblivion.

Instead of adding a max rank option, they're adding a 50% experience increase potion that allows people to get to 1-50 easier, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 13 LEVELS?! We are still forced to play they want us to play. There is no replay value, they should not have added classes to force players to replay the 63 levels just to enjoy the game. The most fun out of most MMORPGs is ENDGAME, not grinding or questing. The reason this game failed from the start was due to hitting level 50, then FORCING PLAYERS TO LEVEL AN EXTRA 10 RANKS (which was arguably the worst AND slowest time for NBs and Templars) and then to add ANOTHER 4 RANKS even though many of the players complained and moaned about Veteran Ranks. So instead of taking the advice of players and removing the veteran ranks early on, ZoS decided to add more ranks and continue on with the veteran rank system. Getting to level 50 once was fine and did not feel so "grindy", but once they added veteran ranks and forced players to grind from what was supposed to be endgame to just doing quests for the enemy faction, then there was no endgame.

The first thing any of the "normal" players wants to do in any MMORPG is to hit the max level so he or she can enjoy endgame content, but this was labeled as a TES game so players shouldn't feel forced to be pigeonholed into a class system or being gutted from content for not being Veteran Rank 14. Nerfing the crab grind is another middle finger to the player base and we should not tolerate it. Once players hit Veteran Rank 5 from the crab grind, the game did not feel like too much of a grind because they were almost there. Now players have to go through the game, and many of them are REPLAYING the game again for their # amount of times. Me, this will be my 6th time as I have stated earlier, and I do not know how much I could take. From playing from Early Access to Now, and from grinding two , I am gravely tired of how they are purposefully ruining the game and punishing players who have already gone through the game once. They should have removed veteran ranks a long time ago, nerfing this grind is another nail in the coffin before this game starts losing more and more players from the terrible and long grind ahead.

Iam curious, since the vet levels are going away are they in the console right now? I would think that they would have the console already setup without the vet levels and if not, if they console does have vet levels i foresee that the vet levels will be around for a long time.