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Beware entitlement game modification
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desciviib14_ESO✭✭✭bellanca6561n wrote: »Alas, the merits of the point were lost due to unnecessary use of inflammatory terms.
This ^^^^There is nothing here of interest to any nations; as a matter of fact, there is nothing here but people.0 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elijah_Crow wrote: »Elijah_Crow wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.
The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.
Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.
I never said veteran ranks were too grindy, I said they were a barrier preventing many people from playing an alt. alliance ranks do not keep you from enjoying the game and nothing they reward prevents you from playing the game.
Then you don't achieve it on an alt and that's okay. I will never be Emperor either and I can live with that.
You think VR prevents people from making an alt, but don't think AR (which takes waaaay longer to grind) doesn't? Oh god the hypocrisy.
No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Edited by Elijah_Crow on April 10, 2015 3:59PM0 -
Keron✭✭✭✭✭
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You may want to rethink that statement. It may be more true like this:Elijah_Crow wrote: »No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Elijah_Crow wrote: »...There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 24 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Edited by Keron on April 10, 2015 4:04PM1 -
Weberda✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually I don't think VR rank should be compared to AR rank in any way. One is mandatory. The other is voluntary.
And the real game does not begin at VR14...it starts at L1. The guy who thinks that it starts at VR14 is the one who will come on here complaining about "no new content" and "nothing to do" when he reaches Vr14.Fernwood, EP Haderus NA
Lo Behold, AD Thornblade NA (formerly Haderus, inactive)5 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭The only achievements I wanted shared across the account are those related to crafting. I spread my professions across three characters (two of which are low level mules/alts), and now cannot get several achievements that have dyes linked to them because of it. Crafting alts have been a common strategy for MMOs since the beginning, and it is irksome ZOS didn't accommodate this by making crafting achievements account wide (and by putting the best rewards for writs in a zone you must be VR1 to access).Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think nothing should be shared. CP, skyshards etc should not be shared. You want a new character then buckle down and do it. If you hand people everything they will get bored and leave. They have no investment in the character.7 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
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You may want to rethink that statement. It may be more true like this:Elijah_Crow wrote: »No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Elijah_Crow wrote: »...There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 24 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.
Vigor. How can you claim that a skill just added to the game recently is so important and unbalancing that it makes it impossible to compete in PvP?
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Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love people who seem to think "the kids" today are so completely different and worse than when they were kids. No generation in the history of mankind has ever thought that the younger generation was up to snuff! They thought those kids in the '50s with their convertibles and rock 'n' roll and malt shops were lazy and entitled! They thought those kids in the '70s with their disco and pet rocks were lazy and entitled! They thought those kids in the '80s with their synthesizers and neon clothes were lazy and entitled! Those kids in the '90s with their grunge and flannel and moping around? Lazy and entitled!
And this blind spot people have when comparing their peers to the younger generation goes back way, way longer than the 1950s!
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates7 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People have been trying to cut corners and get out of doing stuff since caveman times I would think.0 -
Keron✭✭✭✭✭
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Don't presume so much. Yes, vigor has exacerbated the discrepancy, but level two battle frenzy alone already is and always has been an incredibly strong talent making a huge difference. Also, you had to reach alliance rank 18 for the first level of battle frenzy and alliance rank 16 for barrier. All of those are incredibly strong talents that have a huge influence on AvA or character strength in general.Elijah_Crow wrote: »
Vigor. How can you claim that a skill just added to the game recently is so important and unbalancing that it makes it impossible to compete in PvP?
You may want to rethink that statement. It may be more true like this:Elijah_Crow wrote: »No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Elijah_Crow wrote: »...There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 24 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.0 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
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Don't presume so much. Yes, vigor has exacerbated the discrepancy, but level two battle frenzy alone already is and always has been an incredibly strong talent making a huge difference. Also, you had to reach alliance rank 18 for the first level of battle frenzy and alliance rank 16 for barrier. All of those are incredibly strong talents that have a huge influence on AvA or character strength in general.Elijah_Crow wrote: »
Vigor. How can you claim that a skill just added to the game recently is so important and unbalancing that it makes it impossible to compete in PvP?
You may want to rethink that statement. It may be more true like this:Elijah_Crow wrote: »No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Elijah_Crow wrote: »...There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 24 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.
I don't deny the skills are worth working towards, I just don't believe that by achieving these on one character means you should automatically have them on every character.0 -
Thymos✭✭✭✭✭I don't have time to grind an alt all the way to VR14 within a month or two months. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game for what it is. I have all 8 of my slots in use, been here since the beginning. My highest level is VR11, second highest is VR3. The rest are all below 50. I don't want easy mode. I want to actually have to feel like I put in the work for something else. Other MMOs that I have played, I had to do the work for all of my alts too, and never once complained. In fact, I started complaining when the games started selling means to skip content and get free levels.
I really dislike the argument for "pay to not play." The game is not just endgame.The Older Gamers Recruitment Thread
Always accepting new members for NA and EU server. PvP PvE RP all welcome. Must be 25+ yo to join.
http://www.theoldergamers.com/4 -
Xjcon✭✭✭✭✭How about leave the game as it is and make use of those zones in the world map that we cannot go to. As for your statement about taking VR ranks because they are too grindy yet AVA is not is a bit off, VR is achievable in a couple weeks, AVA ranks are no where near this close, and yes those ranks have substantial benefits that allow players extremely useful skills and passives.Edited by Xjcon on April 10, 2015 4:30PMBriza Do'urdenx V16 Dunmer DK
Jcon V16 Orc DK
Vierna Do'urdenx V16 Bosmer NB
Jarlaxle Baenrex V16 Dunmer NB0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seems to me too OP to be able to switch race etc so quickly and be max level. If you want to switch race or class etc then it should take some time to do. You should not be handed a bunch of pvp ranks on your newly made character. Either play your main or earn them on your alt.2 -
bellanca6561n✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »I love people who seem to think "the kids" today are so completely different and worse than when they were kids. No generation in the history of mankind has ever thought that the younger generation was up to snuff! They thought those kids in the '50s with their convertibles and rock 'n' roll and malt shops were lazy and entitled! They thought those kids in the '70s with their disco and pet rocks were lazy and entitled! They thought those kids in the '80s with their synthesizers and neon clothes were lazy and entitled! Those kids in the '90s with their grunge and flannel and moping around? Lazy and entitled!
And this blind spot people have when comparing their peers to the younger generation goes back way, way longer than the 1950s!
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
Oh how I LOVE that quote!1 -
Keron✭✭✭✭✭
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And now we are back in the middle of the discussion from the other thread, which I would have preferred to have continued there, but anyways. This is the only point where I actually have a different opinion then you in regards to this overall topic.Elijah_Crow wrote: »
I don't deny the skills are worth working towards, I just don't believe that by achieving these on one character means you should automatically have them on every character.
Don't presume so much. Yes, vigor has exacerbated the discrepancy, but level two battle frenzy alone already is and always has been an incredibly strong talent making a huge difference. Also, you had to reach alliance rank 18 for the first level of battle frenzy and alliance rank 16 for barrier. All of those are incredibly strong talents that have a huge influence on AvA or character strength in general.Elijah_Crow wrote: »
Vigor. How can you claim that a skill just added to the game recently is so important and unbalancing that it makes it impossible to compete in PvP?
You may want to rethink that statement. It may be more true like this:Elijah_Crow wrote: »No, I don't. There is a lot of power disparity between a VR1 and VR14 due to levels and gear tiers. There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 1 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.Elijah_Crow wrote: »...There is not a great disparity between a VR14 alliance rank 24 and a VR14 alliance rank 50.
There are two types of players: One has the option to play long hours and frequently. The other has limited play time. Lets leave it at this distinction and not go into any reasons for it.
For Type 1, your point of view is more sensible - he has the option to actually build a second character up to this stage within reasonable time scale. For Type 2, my point of view is more sensible - he may be reluctant to explore a second character because with his limited time he would need another year of bringing that second character up to the same level.
I am one of the Type 2 players, hence my only gripe with the alliance rank restriction. If the skills/passives would unlock for all my chars, I would enjoy it very much. Even though I have limited time, I AM an avowed altaholic. Besides those Vet Rank chars in the signature, I have 5 others in different level of development. I work full time, am married and even though I am in game far too often to suit wifey, I still manage at most 4 hours a day on maybe three days a week. And still - I have made progress on the alliance war rank front, and that even with my admittedly limited skillset and reluctance to join groups because of voice chat ban at home (she at least wants to be able to talk to me
).
Try to see this from my point of view. It took me almost a year (I play since early release, with a three month break prior to 1.6) to reach AR19 on my nightblade. Right now I would very much prefer to play the DK, just for sake of variation - but I can't. I want that self healing skill for my nightblade to make her the solo beast I envision her to be.
And that, in very many words, is the reason why I would like to have the discussion open, to have my highest Aliiance War Rank apply to any and every character I bring into veteran ranks, without giving me the skill points or the actual rank, only to unlock the skills.Edited by Keron on April 10, 2015 4:42PM3 -
desciviib14_ESO✭✭✭The term entitlement isn't being used correctly. What's going on here is simple market philosophy; supply and demand. Some consumers of the supply are demanding changes they'd like to see and it should be considered by the supplier based on how great the demand is because conversely the supplier demands money and the consumers making the original demands are also the supplier of money. Entitlement has nothing to do with it and further, good consumers demand changes in the product when they are not fully satisfied. The original intent of this thread is a thinly veiled, socio-politically motivated jab. ...yes, yes, we know..."kids these days"....There is nothing here of interest to any nations; as a matter of fact, there is nothing here but people.1
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Thymos✭✭✭✭✭@Keron , I am type 2, but I also don't agree with being given any of this. I agree with having to work towards a goal, not have it done halfway for me.
I work full time, go to school full time, and spend time with my wife and daughter. This game isn't something I do all day long, and I feel like the alts I have made over the last year are worth it, because I actually had to put the work into them, alliance rank, veteran rank, skills, etc. I'm sorry that you have some home issues that make it so your wife has the final say of you using voice chat to communicate with a group, but that's quite irrelevant.
I see this from your point of view, and I don't agree with it. I mean, if I picked up Dragon Age: Inquisition, played through it once as a mage, I don't expect to get any portion of the skills or level when I make a new character to try a different class.The Older Gamers Recruitment Thread
Always accepting new members for NA and EU server. PvP PvE RP all welcome. Must be 25+ yo to join.
http://www.theoldergamers.com/6 -
Elijah_Crow✭✭✭✭✭
✭desciviib14_ESO wrote: »The term entitlement isn't being used correctly. What's going on here is simple market philosophy; supply and demand. Some consumers of the supply are demanding changes they'd like to see and it should be considered by the supplier based on how great the demand is because conversely the supplier demands money and the consumers making the original demands are also the supplier of money. Entitlement has nothing to do with it and further, good consumers demand changes in the product when they are not fully satisfied. The original intent of this thread is a thinly veiled, socio-politically motivated jab. ...yes, yes, we know..."kids these days"....
The original intent of this thread is to say that if a game is to easy, you don't appreciate the accomplishments you've made. Particularly the accomplishments on each character.
If there is a socio-political jab it's at the Instant Gratification desire that many have now. I don't believe this has anything to do with age and mentioned nothing about "kids".3 -
Keron✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Thymos
And that is all fine and well, we have a different opinion on it then.
The play-through of DA:I took me maybe 10 days /played (meaning 240hrs), I ended up with every tier 3 superior crafter recipe except the one I had to sacrifice Bull's mercenaries for (which I flat out refused), had all dragons, all side quests (I even went through everywhere with a walkthrough after I finished to make sure I haven't forgotten a single quest) did romance Sera on one play-through, Josephine on the second and Dorian on the third that I haven't finished. On that third I also strung Bull along for quite some time, the banter between those two is hilarious.
My AR19 took me about 40 days /played. And that for me is all the difference it makes.
Edited by Keron on April 10, 2015 5:04PM0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »I'm glad someone made a thread like this. It's gotten completely out of hand. I didn't like doing Cadwell's Silver and Gold a second time, I didn't like hunting for skyshards, collecting lore books, or grinding vet levels, but I also don't think they should just be handed to me because I did them on an alt. Alt's should be just as much work as your first character. Often in MMOs the first character I create is only my main until I decide I'd rather play a different class. If people don't like putting work into their character just go play WoW and buy your max level.
Just to add, do people want to do levels 1-50 an eighth time?
I really do not understand why people complain about VR levels as if they are any worse than being forced to repeat 1-50. Why not allow people to start at VR14 so they aren't forced to repeat quests in their starting alliance? As you say, the alternative to leveling characters is letting people buy a VR14 character (but with no advancement in leveling of any skill line and with no skyshards). People will have mixed feelings about that in ESO.
VR levels are an improvement over levels 1-50 because gear becomes outdated at a slower pace. That is a good change. But I don't see how removing them makes any more sense than removing all levels. Seems arbitrary to me. People asking to remove VR levels are asking to make max level lower. I don't see why what they call the levels matters.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭newtinmpls wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »VR14, which is when the REAL game starts and you know it!
Hmmmm. ... I've been playing long enough to get the loyalty pet rewards. I play a few hours a day on average - some more, some none. My highest character is 37th or so, and I have two accounts. I started "sub" and kept on, as I am enjoying the process of the game.
Apparently in your eyes, the "real" game hasn't started yet. For me.
I think I'm probably having more fun than you are.deathpandax_ESO wrote: »Elijah_Crow wrote: »Rook_Master wrote: »It boggles my mind how people think Veteran Ranks need to be removed because they are too grindy, but Alliance Ranks are just fine.
The VR14 grind does not even compare to the AR24 grind in the slightest.
Unless you are getting Social Security entitlements, either disability or retirement, you don't have time to do this for an alt.
I never said veteran ranks were too grindy, I said they were a barrier preventing many people from playing an alt. alliance ranks do not keep you from enjoying the game and nothing they reward prevents you from playing the game.
Then you don't achieve it on an alt and that's okay. I will never be Emperor either and I can live with that.
You think VR prevents people from making an alt, but don't think AR (which takes waaaay longer to grind) doesn't? Oh god the hypocrisy.
What bearing does AR have on gameplay? Isn't the only impact of AR on the alliance skill lines? That is a big difference because the main concern people have with getting to VR14 is getting gear that they will not outlevel. The gear issue also affects all gameplay, not just PvE.Edited by DaveMoeDee on April 10, 2015 5:13PM0 -
asteldian✭✭✭✭Well, for me personally I love caltrops for tanking, so I won't make an alt that tanks as I have no interest in getting to AR 12 again especially as I have a long way to get my main to 24.
Add to that the 10% magicka regen I could get for having a support skill slotted and that too is pretty damn good but I ain't farming twice for that either.
So, whether or not one feels AR should be account wide is very much personal opinion. For me I can live with the way things are, but make no mistake, AR ranks for me is a far bigger barrier than vet ranks for making alts.1 -
Victus✭✭✭Count me also as a "Type 2" player, but have lower level alts than the few posting here (probably due to the break I took from summer '14 until a month ago), but I still like to have my achievements kept on each character. I too like building up my alts and seeing them develop.
Could we also add asking for Auction Houses/a change to the current Guild vendor systems among the list of "entitled" things people want? IMO the current system works fine, but that people don't want to put in effort to work within this system and therefore would rather have what everyone else wants.
Sorry for the can of worms if I've opened one...Throm the First - Redguard Dragon Knight - Daggerfall Covenant
vanquishguild.com1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well, for me personally I love caltrops for tanking, so I won't make an alt that tanks as I have no interest in getting to AR 12 again especially as I have a long way to get my main to 24.
Add to that the 10% magicka regen I could get for having a support skill slotted and that too is pretty damn good but I ain't farming twice for that either.
So, whether or not one feels AR should be account wide is very much personal opinion. For me I can live with the way things are, but make no mistake, AR ranks for me is a far bigger barrier than vet ranks for making alts.
Your argument makes sense for your experience. More generally, you are talking about something pretty narrow -- development of skill lines. Similarly, it takes an awful long time to advance the undaunted skill line if people want access to all those skills. That is how skill lines work in ESO. You have to do certain things to develop them.
I do not see this being on par with the gear issue for the vast majority of players, especially considering how much improved gear is needed later in the game. Granted, money can partly resolve the gear issue as I can always buy the tempers needed to improve gear each level and buy more kutas (though getting a great gear drop at VR11 is kinda depressing).Edited by DaveMoeDee on April 10, 2015 5:41PM0 -
BRogueNZ✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »People have been trying to cut corners and get out of doing stuff since caveman times I would think.
Exactly.
There's a fine line between laziness and efficiency.
Wisdom shows us what our time is worth spending on.
The cost (actual and opportunity) and the benefits of anything we do.
levelling a character has it benefits, but for me not enough to be worth wasting time doing something I have already done.
By the way; an achievement is done by you not your character.
The sense of achievement and gratification from leveling has diminishing returns. For some people its 15 alts later, for me and possibly others its.. if I've done it once I see no reason to do it again, I see no reason to do it again I see ..0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »People have been trying to cut corners and get out of doing stuff since caveman times I would think.
Exactly.
There's a fine line between laziness and efficiency.
Wisdom shows us what our time is worth spending on.
The cost (actual and opportunity) and the benefits of anything we do.
levelling a character has it benefits, but for me not enough to be worth wasting time doing something I have already done.
By the way; an achievement is done by you not your character.
The sense of achievement and gratification from leveling has diminishing returns. For some people its 15 alts later, for me and possibly others its.. if I've done it once I see no reason to do it again, I see no reason to do it again I see ..
No each achievement is per character. Its called a role playing game for a reason. Each character is a different person. Each character should need to earn each achievement. So its not "you" even tho you are technically playing the game.4 -
Ysne58✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I think nothing should be shared. CP, skyshards etc should not be shared. You want a new character then buckle down and do it. If you hand people everything they will get bored and leave. They have no investment in the character.
If this were imposed I'd want to be able to start earning CP at level 1. I'm not sure I agree with this option, but it sounds like it's worth exploring, unless it's too late to change the things that are account wide (dyes, cp, etc.)0 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »People have been trying to cut corners and get out of doing stuff since caveman times I would think.
Exactly.
There's a fine line between laziness and efficiency.
Wisdom shows us what our time is worth spending on.
The cost (actual and opportunity) and the benefits of anything we do.
levelling a character has it benefits, but for me not enough to be worth wasting time doing something I have already done.
By the way; an achievement is done by you not your character.
The sense of achievement and gratification from leveling has diminishing returns. For some people its 15 alts later, for me and possibly others its.. if I've done it once I see no reason to do it again, I see no reason to do it again I see ..
I think it is by character. As I mentioned.. it makes sense that a level 3 would have "Hero Of Tamriel" achievement? I think not. And if you get no sense of achievement by completing them again, you don't have to. What is your reasoning for completing them again? All I could think of would be dyes - except, those are account wide. So no need to do it again if you don't want to. You are effectively taking away that sense of achievement from anyone who does actually want to complete it again - if you were to automatically hand them out.Lone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord1