@ZOS Dungeon LFG tool incentives request so ppl start/cont use

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Hey ZOS,

It's a back n forth argument that the tool either works or doesn't work.
I'm not hoping to discuss this BUT I do want to suggest that having an incentive based tool usually promotes more usage. This hopefully clarifies IF the tool works and then kills those threads and arguments. If it truly doesn't work, then.....

Today the only benefit to using the tool is IF you happen to have a group formed within 15-30 mins.
Most and myself are experiencing partial or no group formation after 2+ hours for the last three months.

If this doesn't take much work I'm asking for on console and PC, the following be changed:
-Give anyone who uses the tool AND who stay to complete the dungeon a big chunk of EXP which should be a noticeable amount that moves the exp bar more than any player can grind outside of a dungeon (may take a lot of math to figure out)

-Provide anyone who uses the tool and who completes the dungeon a sack of gold AND a random item at their level.

-Later, build in a min skill requirement for roles such as healer and tank so that people don't feel locked into a group and cannot finish content.
(Healer would seem to follow a healing staff skill or the Templar skill line. Whichever is logical)
(Tanks may follow some other format if even logical...I think it would )

The goal is to encourage people to use it very often and set dungeons so that people can progress by doing dungeons runs at leisure.
Today the only benefit to doing dungeons more than once are ....maybe a helm. Undaunted and possibly helping others which is problematic in the current existence of the lfg tool

*Feedback is welcome

dawnhawk · April 2015

I disagree with this more on principle. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, I've seen it done in other games to try and even out the ratio between tanks/healers and dps (key word: try...it didn't work all that well).

But on principle - I don't think ESO should have to incentivize EVERYTHING. Some things the community itself should simply suck it up and pull together to make happen - rather than forcing zos to waste dev cycles on prodding gamers into doing something they claim they want to do (play an mmo) like chattle.

Also...measuring someone's "skill" is not a "simple" task by any means. Forcing cookie cutter requirements in order to fit a role will work for approximately 5 seconds. Then 1) people will bicker like there is no tomorrow and stop using the tool again because they don't want to be forced to play a specific way, and 2) they will find ways around the system (like they did in wow - where they'd wear pvp gear to up their iLvl (the cookie cutter requirement to get into queue) and then swap back out to pve gear).

And then there is simple fact of...what incentive would actually be worth it to the people who don't want to pug anyway? Nothing you've listed would encourage me. I'd still just guild group it, grab friends etc. Random loot item - will likely blow up anyway. Extra XP - not really an incentive if you are already vr14 and have hit your enlightment cap. Gold? Easy to make - not a good incentive.

Digiman · April 2015

dawnhawk wrote: »

But on principle - I don't think ESO should have to incentivize EVERYTHING. Some things the community itself should simply suck it up and pull together to make happen - rather than forcing zos to waste dev cycles on prodding gamers into doing something they claim they want to do (play an mmo) like chattle.

This is the attitude of why the LFG tool sucks and we still have bug infestations. The principle of sucking things up with broken tools just doesn't work and only hinders a business's income and profits.

Microsoft had this principle when they announced the Xbone and its DRM and always online crap and the sales dropped drastically compared to their rivals who did nothing and raked it in.

Adding incentives to use a system isn't prodding, would Cyrodiil be more popular if they scrapped the alliance points, skill points, rewards for the worthy? Theory you would say yes, less players trying to get stuff for a purer group. The problem is that the so called chattle is what makes up 95% of the Cyrodiil population.

While something won't incentivize you doesn't mean it won't work for the rest of the "chattle".

Personally they really need to fix up the LFG tool before adding incentives instead of spending every ESO live! and forum post saying everyone should use a busted tool.

Cherryblossom · April 2015

Erm you do realise the tool is actually broken and doesn't work for many players, whilst your idea is fairly good and not without merit.

It's pointless whilst the actual tool does not work.....

Jando · April 2015

There are a lot of cool ideas for LFG here:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/133438/group-tool-suggestion#latest

In my opinion, LFG is one of the most important systems in the game, and right now it's in really bad shape. ZoS needs to do something about it ASAP.

dawnhawk · April 2015

@Digiman - I didn't say they should suck it up about the "broken" part. I said they should suck it up about not getting a bunch of extra goodies about using the tool. IF you are experiencing bugs with the tools - fixing the bugs wouldn't be wasted dev cycles. Adding extra goodies in order to make a person use a tool that does work but at this point no one wants to use it - would be.

Xjcon · April 2015

I've recently tried the lfg tool while I grinded an alt, yes it worked but I wasn't after one particular instance and most the time I ended up in,a group who was after the pledges. While I think it would be a good way to encourage people to use it I would prefer more end game content.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Erm you do realise the tool is actually broken and doesn't work for many players, whilst your idea is fairly good and not without merit.

It's pointless whilst the actual tool does not work.....

The tool actually works when enough ppl queue. It may not group well or logic by roles but it does work. It's not grouping because everyone is telling everyone not to use it. I've personally suggested it no longer works until BaM I was grouped with one other person but after 2+ hours

Now every LFG type may not work as well as others but IF 75% of ppl would stop saying it doesn't work and start pushing people to use it then we can address its functionality and effectiveness.

Varicite · April 2015

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Erm you do realise the tool is actually broken and doesn't work for many players, whilst your idea is fairly good and not without merit.

It's pointless whilst the actual tool does not work.....

I've sat in queue for a total of 18 hours this week, and have never once gotten a group.

I've looked in zone chat for a total of 10 minutes this week and have gotten 9 groups.

That's why nobody uses the LFG tool.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

dawnhawk wrote: »

I disagree with this more on principle. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, I've seen it done in other games to try and even out the ratio between tanks/healers and dps (key word: try...it didn't work all that well).

But on principle - I don't think ESO should have to incentivize EVERYTHING. Some things the community itself should simply suck it up and pull together to make happen - rather than forcing zos to waste dev cycles on prodding gamers into doing something they claim they want to do (play an mmo) like chattle.

Also...measuring someone's "skill" is not a "simple" task by any means. Forcing cookie cutter requirements in order to fit a role will work for approximately 5 seconds. Then 1) people will bicker like there is no tomorrow and stop using the tool again because they don't want to be forced to play a specific way, and 2) they will find ways around the system (like they did in wow - where they'd wear pvp gear to up their iLvl (the cookie cutter requirement to get into queue) and then swap back out to pve gear).

And then there is simple fact of...what incentive would actually be worth it to the people who don't want to pug anyway? Nothing you've listed would encourage me. I'd still just guild group it, grab friends etc. Random loot item - will likely blow up anyway. Extra XP - not really an incentive if you are already vr14 and have hit your enlightment cap. Gold? Easy to make - not a good incentive.

Principle- if there is no bonus or reward to do something people stop doing it. You wouldn't do quests for no reward. You wouldn't kill for no items or exp. You wouldn't have paid a sub in the past if not for game access.

Measuring skill?
It's a numeric value. What's hard to measure. It only is there to ensure someone has put points and gained skill levels in that line to fulfill the role.

What incentive?
The incentive is matched with the purpose of the queued event. If it's a dungeon then exp, gold and items are the results of dungeons. Nothing magical or hard to figure out

dawnhawk · April 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Principle- if there is no bonus or reward to do something people stop doing it. You wouldn't do quests for no reward. You wouldn't kill for no items or exp. You wouldn't have paid a sub in the past if not for game access.

Measuring skill?
It's a numeric value. What's hard to measure. It only is there to ensure someone has put points and gained skill levels in that line to fulfill the role.

What incentive?
The incentive is matched with the purpose of the queued event. If it's a dungeon then exp, gold and items are the results of dungeons. Nothing magical or hard to figure out

The reward for the LFG tool in my mind would be "finding a group" - that is the goal is it not? Why does "finding a group" in order to complete group content require any further incentive than that? The purpose completing quests and killing thing is to progress - progression is via a mechanic called XP - therefore receiving XP is a normal requirement for this mechanic. XP is not a normal part of the mechanic of "find a group". You are proposing a "bonus" on top of the "reward" (they are not the same thing) in order to encourage people who do not see a reason to use the tool in order to use the tool (presumably so you have an easier time accomplishing the goal of "finding a group").

THIS is the principle I disagree with.

Skill is far more than a "numeric value". It requires that the person not only have a "skill" (lowercase s) learned via putting a skill point in, but that they have it on their bars, use it, use it at the right time, have the stats required in order to use it at the right time (aren't oom or oos), haven't wandered away and are actually paying attention.

Like I said - what's to stop someone from putting the skills on their bar in order to queue and then swapping them out the second you are in the group so they can play however they want and not accomplishing your goal in the least?

Incentives - like I said above - the "matched purpose" is to find a group. I "figured out" what you want. I don't agree with the want. Reading and comprehension is not equivalent to agreement. You have proposed three incentives - I've stated why they would not encourage me to utilize the tool for your purposes.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

dawnhawk wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Principle- if there is no bonus or reward to do something people stop doing it. You wouldn't do quests for no reward. You wouldn't kill for no items or exp. You wouldn't have paid a sub in the past if not for game access.

Measuring skill?
It's a numeric value. What's hard to measure. It only is there to ensure someone has put points and gained skill levels in that line to fulfill the role.

What incentive?
The incentive is matched with the purpose of the queued event. If it's a dungeon then exp, gold and items are the results of dungeons. Nothing magical or hard to figure out

The reward for the LFG tool in my mind would be "finding a group" - that is the goal is it not? Why does "finding a group" in order to complete group content require any further incentive than that? The purpose completing quests and killing thing is to progress - progression is via a mechanic called XP - therefore receiving XP is a normal requirement for this mechanic. XP is not a normal part of the mechanic of "find a group". You are proposing a "bonus" on top of the "reward" (they are not the same thing) in order to encourage people who do not see a reason to use the tool in order to use the tool (presumably so you have an easier time accomplishing the goal of "finding a group").

THIS is the principle I disagree with.

Skill is far more than a "numeric value". It requires that the person not only have a "skill" (lowercase s) learned via putting a skill point in, but that they have it on their bars, use it, use it at the right time, have the stats required in order to use it at the right time (aren't oom or oos), haven't wandered away and are actually paying attention.

Like I said - what's to stop someone from putting the skills on their bar in order to queue and then swapping them out the second you are in the group so they can play however they want and not accomplishing your goal in the least?

Incentives - like I said above - the "matched purpose" is to find a group. I "figured out" what you want. I don't agree with the want. Reading and comprehension is not equivalent to agreement. You have proposed three incentives - I've stated why they would not encourage me to utilize the tool for your purposes.

Your idea of the incentive isn't working because people aren't getting grouped. Because of this, there has to be an incentive to queue...to stay queued and to complete the encounter. Overtime it promotes more usage.

Many of us played WoW.
Initially wow had no tool at all
Then it added a tool with no incentive but ppl didn't use it cause they could eventually get a group by using zone chat.
WoW adds the incentives and soon when queing most get groups in less than 10 minutes.
In order for a queue to be somewhat efficient, you have to use filters so that PPL don't have access to pick roles that their characters have no skill in.

This isn't perfect but it places pressure on each role because everyone understands that the selection means they can at some level perform the role.

A persons skill level doesn't always allow them to play well with others but a character skill ensures a role can be held

From there the incentive to finish the dungeon encourages the group to help each other and work through it as this game allows so many different approaches to finish the encounters.

dawnhawk · April 2015

@Newblacksmurf - As I said originally - I DON'T think it's a terrible idea. I just can't agree with it.

Many people have been burned by the tool in the past - thus they aren't using it. Exactly like WoW actually.

WoW actually had a series "looking for group" tools of some variety - and they went from:
Bad ( summoning stones but now the things queued you so you weren't stuck standing there, but you still had to go to the right one to queue and hope that other people did too)
To wth (lfg channel)
To interesting premise but broken (first incarnation of nominal lfg tool)
To working but completely out of wack because tanks and healers didn't want to deal with the chaos that was a pug
To "incentivized" (slightly less out of wack but failed to address the underlying fact that most tanks/healers were in guilds and didn't NEED to nor WANT to pug)
To "O.o" - when they tried to fix the "pug/dungeons take too long/dungeons are too hard" issue by making every dungeon a 20 minute zerg that required little to no skill.

And that was where it was when I hung up my WoW boots almost a year and a half ago. You may see that as "works" - I never did. I was one of the tank / healers who by the end couldn't stand pugs and frankly never needed so why gouge my eyes out with a hot poker for a trivial "bonus"? And the last step killed the GAME completely for me because I felt like I was sleep walking, not "playing". I agree many of us came from WoW - we just have a different view of whether we want WoWness over here.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

dawnhawk wrote: »

@Newblacksmurf - As I said originally - I DON'T think it's a terrible idea. I just can't agree with it.

Many people have been burned by the tool in the past - thus they aren't using it. Exactly like WoW actually.

WoW actually had a series "looking for group" tools of some variety - and they went from:
Bad ( summoning stones but now the things queued you so you weren't stuck standing there, but you still had to go to the right one to queue and hope that other people did too)
To wth (lfg channel)
To interesting premise but broken (first incarnation of nominal lfg tool)
To working but completely out of wack because tanks and healers didn't want to deal with the chaos that was a pug
To "incentivized" (slightly less out of wack but failed to address the underlying fact that most tanks/healers were in guilds and didn't NEED to nor WANT to pug)
To "O.o" - when they tried to fix the "pug/dungeons take too long/dungeons are too hard" issue by making every dungeon a 20 minute zerg that required little to no skill.

And that was where it was when I hung up my WoW boots almost a year and a half ago. You may see that as "works" - I never did. I was one of the tank / healers who by the end couldn't stand pugs and frankly never needed so why gouge my eyes out with a hot poker for a trivial "bonus"? And the last step killed the GAME completely for me because I felt like I was sleep walking, not "playing". I agree many of us came from WoW - we just have a different view of whether we want WoWness over here.

Oh my you reminded me of some of the crazy WoW LFG days prior. Lol
You're right that Many people have been burned tho....it's an issue.

What would you think would work?
I don't think the zone chat or even having a LFG channel would be the solution.

I had this idea that ZOS could place icons on the map where ppl could port from anywhere and chat about grouping but it'd only be logical for certain types of dungeons and still doesn't fix the tool issue that allows PPP to play while queued

AH93 · April 2015

I'm not entirely sure if the LFG tool works or it partially broken, I'll explain a bit further.

The character I play is a tank, (I started a fresh game when TU was released, after many months away). Currently level 26.
The first dungeon of the DC, Spindleclutch, I used the LFG tool for, and found a group in about 10 minutes, a very good group to boot, we completed the first three dungeons efficiently with no deaths. Now this may be down to the fact that there are a lot of players at this level so the demand to do the first three dungeons is high compared to the rest, or it may be something else, I'm not entirely sure.

Now when I got to around level 18 I used the LFG tool for the next set of dungeons, or Wayrest Sewers specifically, after about an hour of questing whilst in the queue I failed to find anyone else, which resulted in me using zone chat, which actually worked, using the zone chat I formed a good group and we completed the second tier of group dungeons.

So I don't know if the higher level the dungeons are, the harder it is to find a group, whether there is something in the system broken for these levels and dungeons, or whether there are very few players actively interested in completing them.

I hope they do try and fix it if it is broken, or introduce a slightly better system, I do like the LFG tool in online games since it is very convenient, at the same time I don't mind using zone chat and asking in my guild. At the end of the day I don't know if incentives would work, they would incentivise some people to use the LFG tool sure, but is the best solution just to throw more Exp/gold/items players way?

dawnhawk · April 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

What would you think would work?
I don't think the zone chat or even having a LFG channel would be the solution.

Oh please no! ROFL No, no, and no again. Not enough brain bleach in the world. *whimper*

Also - sorry for raising past...um...traumas! lol I have a friend who joined WoW "later" (about a month before BC) and thus sometimes doesn't always have context for some of why I twitch at certain ideas/comments - so I've just gotten used to detailing more when "well WoW..." comes up. We were actually discussing the LFG the other day so it was all fresh in my head!

I do not have a "good" solution for you - though I'm totally willing to hash ideas all day long with you and see what comes out of it!

I'm of the opinion that part of it HAS to be the community sadly - which was my first point.

There is no patience to teach people - which means some avoid the pug route because they find it exasperating, but on the other side people avoid it because they don't want to be the cause and focal point of that frustration!

ZOS can't "fix" that with code.

And games have struggled forever to balance "hardcore" vs "casual", "elitist" vs "carebear" (have I forgotten any pigeon holes? Pretty sure I still count as a hardcore elitist by most definitions...I usually use a different term, but ZOS would hit me with the mod hammer if I used it here

). How do you "group" the min/maxers with the non-minmaxers and make everyone happy?

I was one of the ones who was hoping the "survey for game preferences" would maybe manifest in an interesting way (though I was skeptical from a programming point of view) - it would have added an interesting dynamic to the question if a good way could have been figured out.

Varicite · April 2015

Why can't we just at least have an old school LFG system that allows us to SEE the players who are looking for groups (in a list w/ levels and preferred dungeons) and, y'know, ASK them if they'd like to join?

inferi · April 2015

ESO Live is tomorrow, and I posted this question to their thread.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164008/?_ga=1.52524973.40314897.1428608070

pecheckler · April 2015

I received full acknowledgement in a personalized support ticket response that the group finder is not functioning correctly and that the issue is being worked on.

LIQUID741 · April 2015

It has to be incentivized for it to work. Anyone that says differently is just plain wrong...sorry. The system we have in game now is the same as I used back in 99' with EQ1 and frankly it's an embarrassment for a 2015 MMO. You need the sheep including myself to use it. Feed the sheep and they will come. Simple as that.

Varicite · April 2015

LIQUID741 wrote: »

It has to be incentivized for it to work. Anyone that says differently is just plain wrong...sorry. The system we have in game now is the same as I used back in 99' with EQ1 and frankly it's an embarrassment for a 2015 MMO. You need the sheep including myself to use it. Feed the sheep and they will come. Simple as that.

I didn't play EQ, but the MMOs I did play around 2000 actually had a list of people who were looking to do things, and you could message them and ask them to join your party.

Even that would be better than what we have now, and that's 15 years ago.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Varicite wrote: »

LIQUID741 wrote: »

It has to be incentivized for it to work. Anyone that says differently is just plain wrong...sorry. The system we have in game now is the same as I used back in 99' with EQ1 and frankly it's an embarrassment for a 2015 MMO. You need the sheep including myself to use it. Feed the sheep and they will come. Simple as that.

I didn't play EQ, but the MMOs I did play around 2000 actually had a list of people who were looking to do things, and you could message them and ask them to join your party.

Even that would be better than what we have now, and that's 15 years ago.

Ppl aren't going to use a list considering its thousands of ppl on two servers. It's not like long ago where maybe 5-20k per server.

Varicite · April 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

LIQUID741 wrote: »

It has to be incentivized for it to work. Anyone that says differently is just plain wrong...sorry. The system we have in game now is the same as I used back in 99' with EQ1 and frankly it's an embarrassment for a 2015 MMO. You need the sheep including myself to use it. Feed the sheep and they will come. Simple as that.

I didn't play EQ, but the MMOs I did play around 2000 actually had a list of people who were looking to do things, and you could message them and ask them to join your party.

Even that would be better than what we have now, and that's 15 years ago.

Ppl aren't going to use a list considering its thousands of ppl on two servers. It's not like long ago where maybe 5-20k per server.

If they were categorized into what they are looking for (in the LFG tool, you have to select from a drop down menu) and level range, I very much doubt ANY of the lists would be thousands of names long.

Do you really think there are going to be a thousand people looking to run lv32 CoA or something? Do you think there'd even be a hundred?

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Varicite wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

LIQUID741 wrote: »

It has to be incentivized for it to work. Anyone that says differently is just plain wrong...sorry. The system we have in game now is the same as I used back in 99' with EQ1 and frankly it's an embarrassment for a 2015 MMO. You need the sheep including myself to use it. Feed the sheep and they will come. Simple as that.

I didn't play EQ, but the MMOs I did play around 2000 actually had a list of people who were looking to do things, and you could message them and ask them to join your party.

Even that would be better than what we have now, and that's 15 years ago.

Ppl aren't going to use a list considering its thousands of ppl on two servers. It's not like long ago where maybe 5-20k per server.

If they were categorized into what they are looking for (in the LFG tool, you have to select from a drop down menu) and level range, I very much doubt ANY of the lists would be thousands of names long.

Do you really think there are going to be a thousand people looking to run lv32 CoA or something? Do you think there'd even be a hundred?

Well there are (let's low ball it) 150,000 ppl playing total. Maybe 50-60k per server so at peak times 20-30k per faction....yeah I think there would be a ton

BUT

If ppl aren't using the current tool, why would they use a more antiquated one?
One that has to search over n over again like the guild ah search

Why would they use this, and what or why is this more apt to be used vs what exists?

Anilahation · April 2015

It should give you RNG loot chance, or just extra XP or something... Maybe if you complete it you get the choice of free consumables from the crown store.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Just an FYI
Today I tested the tool in a VR Crag on the AD NA server

It works 100% but he issue is that no one is using the queue

Can't blame ZOS but we can offer ideas that incentivize others to use it often

Earthwardzilvox_ESO · April 2015

Or we could drop a pointless tool that hasn't been necessary in this game, and never will be. The only thing LFG does is trivialize and depersonalize dungeons in a game. The only multiplayer games where you can do a dungeon without talking to anyone are games with dungeon finders. That's not something that should ever happen in an MMO.

pecheckler · April 2015

Earthwardzilvox_ESO wrote: »

Or we could drop a pointless tool that hasn't been necessary in this game, and never will be. The only thing LFG does is trivialize and depersonalize dungeons in a game. The only multiplayer games where you can do a dungeon without talking to anyone are games with dungeon finders. That's not something that should ever happen in an MMO.

So what you are suggesting is essentially this:

Logon to play a few hours in the evening.
Choice A: Go to capital city and type in /zone for potentially hours looking for a group.
Choice B: Go enjoy the relaxing solo open zone quests but have no chance whatsoever of receiving an invitation to a dungeon party.

Now with a functional and utilized group finder:

Logon to play a few hours in the evening.
Go to any zone.
Doing whatever content you want, all the while letting a painless tool find players looking to participate in the same group content as you.

The better choice is obvious. Far more popular MMOs have these features for a reason. And these wonderful tools are an important contributing factor to said popularity.

Also, automated group finders do not cause players to not communicate. Players deciding not to communicate causes that. Simple logic.

ZOS has already confirmed the group finder is broken, and they are working on fixing it. Daily incentives already exist, and the next logical step to increase group finder use it to tie those incentives directly to the group finder automated matchmaking. And a final note: console players would never in a million years try to form groups the way you are suggesting. Since they are the target player-base for the development team right now, rest assured that additional focus will be spent on expanding the group finder functionality.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

Earthwardzilvox_ESO wrote: »

Or we could drop a pointless tool that hasn't been necessary in this game, and never will be. The only thing LFG does is trivialize and depersonalize dungeons in a game. The only multiplayer games where you can do a dungeon without talking to anyone are games with dungeon finders. That's not something that should ever happen in an MMO.

No see above

BigM · April 2015

Wow they actually told you it wasn't working and are working on it? Heck I was told the same way back when it first started happening. Think that will be like a year ago in 1 month. Sad they can't get it working, but I tend to think they are way too busy because they are working on console. Right after console launch I bet they get it working.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

BigM wrote: »

Wow they actually told you it wasn't working and are working on it? Heck I was told the same way back when it first started happening. Think that will be like a year ago in 1 month. Sad they can't get it working, but I tend to think they are way too busy because they are working on console. Right after console launch I bet they get it working.

well its like this....i queued and asked others to queue as a test
grouped popped in 5 min