@ZOS_BrianWheeler , a quick word on your mention "..of a certain set" v.s. The Meteor Ultimate

Valnas · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

If they want to fix it, they should just make it proc on DoTs, not ground targeted AoEs or channeled abilities/spells like Rapid Strikes or Jesus Beam. Make it work like intended.

Problem solved.

yeh cause sorcs have tons of non gbaoe dot options ... make it work on lightning form for starters.

timidobserver · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

What we found regarding that proc was simply that it was firing off way more than it was supposed to. Wrobel and gang fixed it to fire with the correct cooldown time and the correct damage check.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP. Even after the nerf Skoria, PVP is probably still going to function horribly. The Skoria set is not making PVP have problems. It's just a scapegoat.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

What we found regarding that proc was simply that it was firing off way more than it was supposed to. Wrobel and gang fixed it to fire with the correct cooldown time and the correct damage check.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP. Even after the nerf Skoria, PVP is probably still going to function horribly. The Skoria set is not making PVP have problems. It's just a scapegoat.

Let me help you out here: a bug fix isn't a nerf.

Oktaine · March 2015

They to disable meteor until they figure it out.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

What we found regarding that proc was simply that it was firing off way more than it was supposed to. Wrobel and gang fixed it to fire with the correct cooldown time and the correct damage check.

Fixed when? Todays Patch?

Pecivilis · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

What we found regarding that proc was simply that it was firing off way more than it was supposed to. Wrobel and gang fixed it to fire with the correct cooldown time and the correct damage check.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

What is this supposed "correct cooldown"? There is no mention of it in the tool tip, such as on the Nightflame set. And could we get some specifics on the "damage check"

frozywozy · March 2015

Pecivilis wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Your whole thread makes perfect sense, I hope they read it and do exactly as you told.

It wasn't sarcasm.

prose08b14a_ESO · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I sometimes wonder if your developers even understand how their own engine works...

Roechacca · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

What we found regarding that proc was simply that it was firing off way more than it was supposed to. Wrobel and gang fixed it to fire with the correct cooldown time and the correct damage check.

Don't listen to those Halley's Comet cultists flipping out , you did right Man .

timidobserver · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since there is no indication anywhere in the item description that there should be a cooldown.

Huntler · March 2015

Morvul wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

4% is not the lowest proc rate of all Undaunted sets.

Nerien’eth 2% proc chance would like to have a word...

Bogdan Nightflame's would like to have that word as well

Huntler · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since there is no indication anywhere in the item description that there should be a cooldown.

There are other sets with no word of a cooldown, but they all, in fact do have one. While I can't comment on their intent, I'm just stating a fact here

.

farrier_ESO · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since there is no indication anywhere in the item description that there should be a cooldown.

It's not something that's in most descs, but I agree, more stats in descs would be nice.

prose08b14a_ESO wrote: »

I sometimes wonder if your developers even understand how their own engine works...

Simply put, as a programmer: no we don't. There's no possible way to, not any more.

Back in the days of the Sinclair Spectrum (Timex Sinclair, in the US), you stood a chance of understanding most of it the hardware, firmware, the OS, and the drivers, if you took the time and had the right background. But that was about the last time that was possible.

Nowadays, there is nobody, not even at Microsoft, who understands all about how Windows works internally. There is probably nobody who has even read all of the source code. And the same is true of almost any project by multiple people.

Instead we treat each others' work as black boxes. There will always come problems where those black boxes are connected: people will be assuming that it was *this* black box' responsibility to validate that input, rather than their own; or it will assume that the output from this black box is always guaranteed to have a certain range of outputs if the user's access level is such-n-such.

But it's not just that. Even in a one-man project, it's often impossible to hold in your head all the different levels at which the system works, the different paths through the code that a command can take, and all the ways that different threads and processes can all interact (or fail to interact). So the skill in programming comes from the ability to write code that allows you to think and work at a minimal number of levels of abstraction (you shouldn't need to be worrying about the bytes that make up the TCP packet that a command came in, at the same time as worrying about how the command is parsed) and with the minimum number of different possible interactions and outcomes. The cleanest possible inputs and outputs to your black boxes.

The_Death_Princess · March 2015

Rule #64 of MMO players handbook:

If an item or set that is super hard to grind is a 'must have' for endgame play, then consider it OP/broke and expect the nerf/fix sometime.

Really folks, get real and stop QQ. Any company that believes in balance will do this, so if you think something is SO awesome, dont get miffed because it gets addressed. You could always go play a game where the devs dont care, like NWO.

Pecivilis · March 2015

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

Rule #64 of MMO players handbook:

If an item or set that is super hard to grind is a 'must have' for endgame play, then consider it OP/broke and expect the nerf/fix sometime.

Really folks, get real and stop QQ. Any company that believes in balance will do this, so if you think something is SO awesome, dont get miffed because it gets addressed. You could always go play a game where the devs dont care, like NWO.

Sigh illogical much? Proper end game is something that takes time to gear-up for and do instead of being able to walk into it willy nilly. Gear Rewards should directly equate to the difficulty of whatever content / time required you get it from, if not then there is no point in doing said End Game content.

And that is the point of teired content, takes time to get ready for it the first levels, do them.practice get better gear from them, and now you are ready for the harder stuff. Etc etc.

By nerfing Item sets like this they are negating to usefulness thus the reward for work equation no longer equals out and the item set because a non-thing with no point to get besides it looks cool.

nptaceknub18_ESO · March 2015

farrier_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since there is no indication anywhere in the item description that there should be a cooldown.

It's not something that's in most descs, but I agree, more stats in descs would be nice.

prose08b14a_ESO wrote: »

I sometimes wonder if your developers even understand how their own engine works...

Simply put, as a programmer: no we don't. There's no possible way to, not any more.

Back in the days of the Sinclair Spectrum (Timex Sinclair, in the US), you stood a chance of understanding most of it the hardware, firmware, the OS, and the drivers, if you took the time and had the right background. But that was about the last time that was possible.

Nowadays, there is nobody, not even at Microsoft, who understands all about how Windows works internally. There is probably nobody who has even read all of the source code. And the same is true of almost any project by multiple people.

Instead we treat each others' work as black boxes. There will always come problems where those black boxes are connected: people will be assuming that it was *this* black box' responsibility to validate that input, rather than their own; or it will assume that the output from this black box is always guaranteed to have a certain range of outputs if the user's access level is such-n-such.

But it's not just that. Even in a one-man project, it's often impossible to hold in your head all the different levels at which the system works, the different paths through the code that a command can take, and all the ways that different threads and processes can all interact (or fail to interact). So the skill in programming comes from the ability to write code that allows you to think and work at a minimal number of levels of abstraction (you shouldn't need to be worrying about the bytes that make up the TCP packet that a command came in, at the same time as worrying about how the command is parsed) and with the minimum number of different possible interactions and outcomes. The cleanest possible inputs and outputs to your black boxes.

This, this, THIS. I logged in just to reply to this comment. This is a perfect description of how it is to be a programmer these days. Add in complexities such as bugs in the OS, video card drivers, etc that manifest under certain esoteric situations, and it can create a huge headache when tracking down bugs.

From one programmer to another: kudos for one of the best descriptions of the current state of complexity when it comes to coding I've seen in a long time.

DDuke · March 2015

So instead of fixing the bug where it triggered from effects that aren't DoT (damage over time effects on opponent), a cooldown is introduced?
Simply by making it not proc from Caltrops, Lightning Flood, Flurry, Jabs, Soul Strike & Jesus Beam and other AoEs/channeled abilities, the real bug could've been fixed & performance addressed.

I can't say I'm a big fan of this decision.

AJTC5000 · March 2015

I wouldn't mind if they lowered the proc chance on the condition that they increased the drop rate. I'm not having a still-pretty-op dungeon having me trial it for 30 straight times just to get another meager set. Please ZOS, look into the issues and evidence fully before you make a decision!

pppontus · March 2015

As I understand the notes it always had a cool down on single target which broke when having multiple targets and could even proc faster than the gcd. Which also incidentally made the set crazy OP in AOE ^^

Now maybe my screen won't freeze from a gazillion meteors every other trash pull. Maybe.

Edit: have 4 sets of the thing so yes this will break my build too. But I can see when something is broken, even if it is favorable for me..

Jitterbug · March 2015

Pecivilis wrote: »

nerfing Item sets like this they are negating to usefulness

they didnt nerf it tho right? they fixed it

Pecivilis · March 2015

Jitterbug wrote: »

Pecivilis wrote: »

nerfing Item sets like this they are negating to usefulness

they didnt nerf it tho right? they fixed it

Only time will tell honestly.I have not logged on yet today. Who is to say how these "fixes" will effect the set.

Scotia · March 2015

If everyone and their mother is using something vs something else, a fix or nerf, whatever you call it will be coming soon. This is the golden rule of any MMO I have played. Adapt.

Joy_Division · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I can't speak for everyone here, but I HATE the lack of information that is communicated to players. On the set it makes NO mention of a cooldown timer. NONE. Other sets do. There should be NO "correct cooldown time" because the information ZoS provided did not say a cooldown timer existed. Now of a sudden there is a "correct cooldown timer" and, apparently, always supposed to be one (even though it is not in the item's description).

Please, tell all the players who have spent hours running City of Ash due to the misinformation that your company provided, exactly what this bug and what exactly is the "correct cooldown timer."

I dislike playing poker and having my royal flush beat by the dealer's Lollapalooza of two diamonds and three clubs which is the highest hand possible on Tuesdays. I find it very unfair to devote my real time and my game resources to utilize aspects of the game based on the information that ZoS communicates that is consistent with actual gameplay, only to have the rug pulled out later.

And I hate to break the news, but anybody who has PvPed before November 2014 when these sets started getting used knows this "bugfix" will have zero impact on Cyrodiil game performance.

Pecivilis · March 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I can't speak for everyone here, but I HATE the lack of information that is communicated to players. On the set it makes NO mention of a cooldown timer. NONE. Other sets do. There should be NO "correct cooldown time" because the information ZoS provided did not say a cooldown timer existed. Now of a sudden there is a "correct cooldown timer" and, apparently, always supposed to be one (even though it is not in the item's description).

Please, tell all the players who have spent hours running City of Ash due to the misinformation that your company provided, exactly what this bug and what exactly is the "correct cooldown timer."

I dislike playing poker and having my royal flush beat by the dealer's Lollapalooza of two diamonds and three clubs which is the highest hand possible on Tuesdays. I find it very unfair to devote my real time and my game resources to utilize aspects of the game based on the information that ZoS communicates that is consistent with actual gameplay, only to have the rug pulled out later.

And I hate to break the news, but anybody who has PvPed before November 2014 when these sets started getting used knows this "bugfix" will have zero impact on Cyrodiil game performance.

Quoting for truth and posterity.

joshisanonymous · March 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I can't speak for everyone here, but I HATE the lack of information that is communicated to players. On the set it makes NO mention of a cooldown timer. NONE. Other sets do. There should be NO "correct cooldown time" because the information ZoS provided did not say a cooldown timer existed. Now of a sudden there is a "correct cooldown timer" and, apparently, always supposed to be one (even though it is not in the item's description).

Please, tell all the players who have spent hours running City of Ash due to the misinformation that your company provided, exactly what this bug and what exactly is the "correct cooldown timer."

I dislike playing poker and having my royal flush beat by the dealer's Lollapalooza of two diamonds and three clubs which is the highest hand possible on Tuesdays. I find it very unfair to devote my real time and my game resources to utilize aspects of the game based on the information that ZoS communicates that is consistent with actual gameplay, only to have the rug pulled out later.

And I hate to break the news, but anybody who has PvPed before November 2014 when these sets started getting used knows this "bugfix" will have zero impact on Cyrodiil game performance.

Did you honestly think that it didn't have a cooldown? I know tooltip descriptions are generally terrible for ESO, but I remember first looking at that set bonus and thinking of how powerful it sounded when combined with a DoT build, even assuming a cooldown. Seriously, on what planet would it make sense to have a powerful AoE that can potentially be triggered numerous times in the span of 2 to 3 seconds?

And suggesting that the ability had nothing to do with performance in Cyrodiil just because there were performance issues before it was used ubiquitously is a bit fallacious. It's very possible that there were performance issues, then this ability singlehandedly made them even worse, and now there are still performance issues but not like there were while it was triggering constantly. No one ever said that this was literally the only thing causing lag in Cyrodiil, which is what you seem to be arguing against.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

The meteor proc has a 5 second cooldown which should be checking a timer that is rooted on the player who has the armor on, however this particular set was checking against each individual target the player with the set damaged (every time they got damaged) resulting in many more meteor's than designed proc'ing from this set.

Huntler · March 2015

I say this again, all of the sets had cooldowns guys, including the ones that didn't mention it. All it took was some testing. While I agree we need better information/tooltip warning, from what I am seeing this is a reasonable fix.

Joy_Division · March 2015

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I am tired of you nerfing my endgame gear for PVP.

This was a legitimate bug, @timidobserver. And a bad one at that. It needed to be fixed. It's not a nerf (a change to something that was working as designed.)

I can't speak for everyone here, but I HATE the lack of information that is communicated to players. On the set it makes NO mention of a cooldown timer. NONE. Other sets do. There should be NO "correct cooldown time" because the information ZoS provided did not say a cooldown timer existed. Now of a sudden there is a "correct cooldown timer" and, apparently, always supposed to be one (even though it is not in the item's description).

Please, tell all the players who have spent hours running City of Ash due to the misinformation that your company provided, exactly what this bug and what exactly is the "correct cooldown timer."

I dislike playing poker and having my royal flush beat by the dealer's Lollapalooza of two diamonds and three clubs which is the highest hand possible on Tuesdays. I find it very unfair to devote my real time and my game resources to utilize aspects of the game based on the information that ZoS communicates that is consistent with actual gameplay, only to have the rug pulled out later.

And I hate to break the news, but anybody who has PvPed before November 2014 when these sets started getting used knows this "bugfix" will have zero impact on Cyrodiil game performance.

Did you honestly think that it didn't have a cooldown? I know tooltip descriptions are generally terrible for ESO, but I remember first looking at that set bonus and thinking of how powerful it sounded when combined with a DoT build, even assuming a cooldown. Seriously, on what planet would it make sense to have a powerful AoE that can potentially be triggered numerous times in the span of 2 to 3 seconds?

And suggesting that the ability had nothing to do with performance in Cyrodiil just because there were performance issues before it was used ubiquitously is a bit fallacious. It's very possible that there were performance issues, then this ability singlehandedly made them even worse, and now there are still performance issues but not like there were while it was triggering constantly. No one ever said that this was literally the only thing causing lag in Cyrodiil, which is what you seem to be arguing against.

Yes I did honestly think it did not have a cooldown because:

there was not one mentioned in the item's description
other items and set that do have a cooldown have a cooldown in its description
the lack of a cooldown was conspicous to anobody using the item since November and not a word was whispered from Zos otherwise.

Quite frankly, the only way to come to the other conclusion that a cooldown existed or was intended to exist is precisely how you did: your own biases and belief in what is balanced.

The planet is Earth by the way. While this set is the best for a DPS oriented character, it is not patently obvious as you think it is that it is the best set overall in Cyrodiil because just as many, if not more, players run the Bloodspawn set.

I am arguing against "bugfixes" that fix stuff that that has worked consistently with the in-game description for many months. I am arguing against having hidden mechanics that mislead players into wasting their time and in-game resources so that detract from a players performance and enjoyment.

I was merely making the observation that this "bugfix' will have an imperceptible influence on the lag issues in Cyrodiil and I am confident that time will prove me correct here.

Joy_Division · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The meteor proc has a 5 second cooldown which should be checking a timer that is rooted on the player who has the armor on, however this particular set was checking against each individual target the player with the set damaged (every time they got damaged) resulting in many more meteor's than designed proc'ing from this set.

Thank you for making it clear I should no longer wear this set. While I dislike the many hours I devoted to running City of Ash only to have the "reward" Burning Spellweave armor set obsolete in 1.6 and now the Valkyn Skoria set rendered to impotence, I do appreciate the accurate description of what the item does so I can adjust my build accordingly.

If there are other hidden "features" associated with the other Unduanted sets or class skills in general, I would encourage and welcome explicit explanations to them as well.

Grao · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The meteor proc has a 5 second cooldown which should be checking a timer that is rooted on the player who has the armor on, however this particular set was checking against each individual target the player with the set damaged (every time they got damaged) resulting in many more meteor's than designed proc'ing from this set.

Oh, so you guys made the best set you've released thus far useless when it was most useful, AoE situation... Great move ZoS, really great move.

Hah! At least I don't have to keep farming City of Ash for a good version of the Helmet!