I think 1.6 Sorcerers are weak

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO · February 2015

So after over 40 hours testing on PTS with my guild mates. It's been made clear by my guild and other Sorcerers we tested with...We are being forced to re-roll our class. Using pets in a Trial is currently to much of a danger to the party. As a boss will aggro the pets, causing the pets death, and near by party members. Pets soak up healing, pulling it away from party members. Even after the pet changes, pets die to often to be useful within a Trial.

We shouldn't be dependant on pets to begin with. However without pets we simply don't break 9-11k damage per second. With pets we range from 14-16k damage per second. The fixes implemented in 1.6.3 patch, didn't effect anything sadly. Liquid Lighting is useless outside of aoe encounters. The spell damage bonus from expert mage, simply aren't enough to stop using mages guild skills for the Sorcerers. Our Sorcerer spells also cost 3 times as much as the other classes. So we are forced to stack stats that further cripple our damage.

So needless to say. If you are playing a Magicka based Sorcerer...we are currently sol. My guild has announced unless something changes, we will not be running any Sorcerer Magicka builds for Trials and end game content. Pets are not viable for endgame pve content and currently neither is any other magicka based Sorcerer build.

Why would anyone take a Sorcerer...when they can take a Dragon Knight or Nightblade that does 5-10k more damage per second than we can do. And thus I am re-rolling Dragon Knight. As ZoS favors them to no end and continuously keeps nerfing Sorcerers. I just hope I can bare the leveling of a new character.

@ZOS_GinaBruno this is a serious issue and needs to be fixed. If you think the new players will be happy to know they rolled Sorcerer and are the weakest class....you are wrong.

Moderator edit: Removed image and adjusted thread title per our rules on bashing and baiting.

Flaminir · February 2015

Hmmm... I agree with some of your post.

Rather concerning that your guild has made the decision to not take Sorcs before 1.6 has even been launched..... though I guess that's pretty much where we are on live anyway so no real change I guess!

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO · February 2015

Flaminir wrote: »

Lol... I agree with your post.

Rather concerning that your guild has made the decision to not take Sorcs before 1.6 has even been launched..... though I guess that's pretty much where we are on live anyway so no real change I guess!

Ya we have been testing trials for over 40 hours this week. Needless to say...Sorcerer using magicka based builds....are completely useless. I don't blame my guild or my friends. I blame ZoS and their poor judgement with Sorcerers.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

nagarjunna · February 2015

I have parked my Sorc needless to say; I am reliant on someone better than I to come up with a viable Sorc Magicka based build. I can't find one... that does not involve being a Togglemancer or running Pets.

So I'll carry on with my V14 Templar and my V1 DK. Shame really - I enjoyed my Sorc, she was my first build and has been in play since beta.

[edited to add Togglemancer comment]

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO · February 2015

nagarjunna wrote: »

I have parked my Sorc needless to say; I am reliant on someone better than I to come up with a viable Sorc Magicka based build. I can't find one...

So I'll carry on with my V14 Templar and my V1 DK. Shame really - I enjoyed my Sorc, she was my first build and has been in play since beta.

Same....it's very sad to say the least.

Samadhi · February 2015

So your guild is forcing you to reroll?

Does not sound like very fun people to game with. Would personally probably just leave.

Hope you enjoy leveling your new character though; went through it back several months ago when rerolling from Nightblade to Sorcerer.

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO · February 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

So your guild is forcing you to reroll?

Does not sound like very fun people to game with. Would personally probably just leave.

Hope you enjoy leveling your new character though; went through it back several months ago when rerolling from Nightblade to Sorcerer.

Never said my guild was forcing me to re-roll. I am re-rolling on my own, as I refuse to be a burden to our trial teams and other end-game content with the current state of Sorcerers.

I am not leaving. I have played with my guild for over 22 years. They are family and the best. My guild mates were at my wedding and at every vacation each year. None of you can say the same most likely. My guild is my family.

Calling us bad for having players smart enough to know when a class in dead in the water....that's just stupid.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Samadhi · February 2015

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

So your guild is forcing you to reroll?

Does not sound like very fun people to game with. Would personally probably just leave.

Hope you enjoy leveling your new character though; went through it back several months ago when rerolling from Nightblade to Sorcerer.

timidobserver wrote: »

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

As a Templar, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for you.

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

So after over 40 hours testing on PTS with my guild mates. It's been made clear by my guild and other Sorcerers we tested with...We are being forced to re-roll our class. Using pets in a Trial is currently to much of a danger to the party. As a boss will aggro the pets, causing the pets death, and near by party members. Pets soak up healing, pulling it away from party members. Even after the pet changes, pets die to often to be useful within a Trial.

We shouldn't be dependant on pets to begin with. However without pets we simply don't break 9-11k damage per second. With pets we range from 14-16k damage per second. The fixes implemented in 1.6.3 patch, didn't effect anything sadly. Liquid Lighting is useless outside of aoe encounters. The spell damage bonus from expert mage, simply aren't enough to stop using mages guild skills for the Sorcerers. Our Sorcerer spells also cost 3 times as much as the other classes. So we are forced to stack stats that further cripple our damage.

So needless to say. If you are playing a Magicka based Sorcerer...we are currently sol. My guild has announced unless something changes, we will not be running any Sorcerer Magicka builds for Trials and end game content. Pets are not viable for endgame pve content and currently neither is any other magicka based Sorcerer build.

Why would anyone take a Sorcerer...when they can take a Dragon Knight or Nightblade that does 5-10k more damage per second than we can do. And thus I am re-rolling Dragon Knight. As ZoS favors them to no end and continuously keeps nerfing Sorcerers. I just hope I can bare the leveling of a new character.

@ZOS_GinaBruno this is a serious issue and needs to be fixed. If you think the new players will be happy to know they rolled Sorcerer and are the weakest class....you are wrong.

Sounds like you need a new guild. It is not the fault of ZOS that your guild is bad.

We aren't a bad guild. We simply tested Sorcerer vs the other classes. You'd be crazy to take Sorcerers over better dps. It's that simple. As a Templar you can't complain about anything lol. Calling others bad is a bit rude btw. The same could be said about someone with such a response as yours.

No, you are a bad guild lol. My guild is a competitive endgame guild. We've cleared SO numerous times and we have a number of groups that clear Vet DSA on a regular basis. We don't banish whole segments of the guild from content due to their class.

Never said my guild was forcing me to re-roll. I am re-rolling on my own, as I refuse to be a burden to our trial teams and other end-game content with the current state of Sorcerers.

I am not leaving. I have played with my guild for over 22 years. They are family and the best.

So your thread would be more accurately titled "1.6 decided to reroll of my own volition."

Okay. Not clear on why you feel the need to make a thread announcing it though.

Have fun with your new decision just the same.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2015

Sorc is not perfect, but its not as bad as some make it, sure it could be better, but with the right build its still viable even endgame.

I have a heavy armor sorc battle mage build that is very good in pvp, it may even be good in pve.

With the right loadout and gear I pretty much never run out of magic on single target, I can sustain for a long time and I dont use pets.

As much as I am disgruntled with some of the changes, it's too early to pack it in, the meta is still up in the air.

Take my build for example, its unorthodox as all be, I have seen no one else running it but me, but wow is it effective.

Be creative, step outside the box, their are viable builds there, just takes some time to find something that fits.

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO · February 2015

woodsro wrote: »

Sorc is not perfect, but its not as bad as some make it, sure it could be better, but with the right build its still viable even endgame.

I have a heavy armor sorc battle mage build that is very good in pvp, it may even be good in pve.

With the right loadout and gear I pretty much never run out of magic on single target, I can sustain for a long time and I dont use pets.

As much as I am disgruntled with some of the changes, it's too early to pack it in, the meta is still up in the air.

Take my build for example, its unorthodox as all be, I have seen no one else running it but me, but wow is it effective.

Be creative, step outside the box, their are viable builds there, just takes some time to find something that fits.

No its bad. The more people like you keep saying "sorc is fine" the more people i find on this game that are out of touch with the sorc.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2015

Ps: Dps is not everything. 9-11k is more then enough for anything in the game. You have Negate and Atronach. Sometimes negate is invaluable, the sorc has utility in other areas. Negate while not as good in pvp is still very useful in pve.

Furthermore Bolt Escape gives you instant repositioning other classes dont have.

I'm not re rolling, ill make it work. The sorc will get changes in future updates, the templar and others will get needed at some point, the sorc has no where to go but up, think of it as an investment

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2015

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

Sorc is not perfect, but its not as bad as some make it, sure it could be better, but with the right build its still viable even endgame.

I have a heavy armor sorc battle mage build that is very good in pvp, it may even be good in pve.

With the right loadout and gear I pretty much never run out of magic on single target, I can sustain for a long time and I dont use pets.

As much as I am disgruntled with some of the changes, it's too early to pack it in, the meta is still up in the air.

Take my build for example, its unorthodox as all be, I have seen no one else running it but me, but wow is it effective.

Be creative, step outside the box, their are viable builds there, just takes some time to find something that fits.

No its bad. The more people like you keep saying "sorc is fine" the more people i find on this game that are out of touch with the sorc.

I never said the sorc was fine, I have been one of the most vocal critics. I'm saying folks are putting too much stock in dps to a degree. 9-10k is enough to clear anything in the game with a good group without wiping. 12-13k will make a 1-3 sec difference most of the time, its not a huge deal.

Of course there is room for improvements and it will come. I still think they need to reduce storm calling costs to be in line for losing the expert mage cost reduction. I still think we need an instant cast filler other then crushing shock, a better heal would also be nice, adding a 10% max magic to increase to the capacitor passive would really help the class overall.

GreyRanger · February 2015

It seems to me that Sorcerers may be underpowered in DPS, but even more discouraging 1.6 destroys the stamina DPS builds, makes the weakest healers and tanks worse. It is pretty bizarre that the most limited class got nerfed the hardest.

There is a pretty constructive thread under the title:
PTS 1.6.3 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

That goes on for hundreds of posts and even got some posts from moderators. In the end the last post from a moderator (Gina) said in essence 1.6 is set and that they expect they will look at sorcerers in some unspecified future they will look at sorcerers.

I think this is really a 3 class game for the foreseeable future.

Exstazik · February 2015

So i'm already give up and bored to wait "fix for sorc"...it'sad to loose 13 000+ achievements but i prefer play normal class.
Any advise: DK or templar?

C0pp3rhead · February 2015

woodsro wrote: »

Ps: Dps is not everything. 9-11k is more then enough for anything in the game. You have Negate and Atronach. Sometimes negate is invaluable, the sorc has utility in other areas. Negate while not as good in pvp is still very useful in pve.

Furthermore Bolt Escape gives you instant repositioning other classes dont have.

I'm not re rolling, ill make it work. The sorc will get changes in future updates, the templar and others will get needed at some point, the sorc has no where to go but up, think of it as an investment

The problem with your statement, "Dps is not everything," is that for competitive endgame content, you need to maximize dps. Even with the upcoming changes in 1.6, the best trial scores will require groups to maximize dps. You can kill all the enemies and rack up no deaths, but the deciding factor will be who can accomplish all of the above in the shortest time. In order to kill enemies as quickly as possible, you must maximize dps.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Sorcs need to be EXACTLY as powerful as DK's or NB's. A skilled player that can coordinate with a group will ultimately be more important than a few hundred dps. In fact, a stamina-dps sorcerer can achieve almost as much dps as other classes. But that limits them to melee dps, but some bosses require ranged dps. The problem is this: the optimal dps that a sorc can achieve is so much lower than other classes that their presence will have a negative impact on the efficacy of the group. Given that most trial groups need only 3 healers and 1 tank, that leaves 8/12 slots that need to be filled by a dps. The only ability that previously warranted a token sorcerer was Negate. However, this has been significantly nerfed. A templar healer is superior to the other 3 classes in terms of healing. Even if a group were to relegate 1 person to the role of 2ndary healer, sorcs do not fill this role better than any other class. Only the rare sorc can serve as the tank for this content. In other words, at most a sorc can earn 2 places out of 12 in these groups. That's assuming that the group foregoes a 3rd templar healer or a DK/Templar tank. However, both DK's and Templars will be more effective in terms of dps after 1.6. Even the most practiced and skilled sorcerers cannot come close to the other classes in terms of dps. Hence, it is counter-productive to have a sorc in your party in competitive PvE.

For some, re-rolling is not an option, especially for those who have jobs & family. Even for "hardcore" players, raising undaunted and alliance ranks is quite a grind.

Certainly, you can complete SO, HR, AA, or any vet dungeon with a sorc in your group. The issue is that that even the best sorcs cannot participate in competitive PvE, cannot help their groups achieve the best trial scores. I once heard that sorcs can maintain the best AoE dps, but most players can match their numbers with impulse or steel tornado. On top of that, the devs at ZOS have made many boss fights a matter of single-target dps. Between the unimaginative content production and a lack of a vision for the sorc class on the part of ZOS' devs, sorcs are in a pretty bad place.

Seraphyel · February 2015

The one thing so many people must realize is:

That Sorcerers are "okay" in endgame PvE doesn't make them good in comparison. If they are "only" 2-3k DPS behind other classes, that's not okay, that's awful.

Why the hell should any competitive group of players take a Sorcerer? Just because of Negate Magic, that was nerfed to death? Is that a compensation for 20% less DPS than others? Sorry, I don't think so.

It's not about the Sorcerer being bad, it's about the others being better. And with 3 classes that can either tank, heal or deal better damage, there is no place for Sorcerers.

And yes, as OP stated, the pets are an obstacle for every Sorcerer in a group. You have NO control over them, they attack CCed targets, they run around without any sense, they attack what they want and - especially the Twilight - they are more dead than alive.

Deathztalker · February 2015

There is a problem with ranged DPS on the PTS period. It’s not just Sorcerers who are having ranged DPS issues it’s just Sorcerers are built more around ranged DPS.

goatlyonesub17_ESO · March 2015

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

So needless to say. If you are playing a Magicka based Sorcerer...we are currently sol. My guild has announced unless something changes, we will not be running any Sorcerer Magicka builds for Trials and end game content. Pets are not viable for endgame pve content and currently neither is any other magicka based Sorcerer build. Why would anyone take a Sorcerer...

Because they didn't know that this was going to happen to sorcerers. In no other fantasy game are fully developed magic-users inferior to a fully-developed user of physical weapons in melee combat, as far as I know. So paying players put almost an entire year into developing the purest magic-user to its fullest VR14 extent, only to have the rug yanked out from under them. I am one of those who got the big, nasty surprise when I finally got into Cyrodiil, for the first time, only after I finished with Caldwell's Gold. Killed over, and over, and over, and over again, I could not stay in combat for ten seconds. Someone suggested that I junk my armor, creating which cost me my fortune (in gold resins) twice over, in order to boost my max magicka and my spell damage. Okay, so I did that. Now I have max magicka > 20000 and spell damage around 2200. Guess what? I STILL CAN'T STAY IN COMBAT FOR 10 SECONDS. Maybe it's the fact that I'm forced to wear blues and purples instead of the golds that I once had, but I doubt it.

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

...when they can take a Dragon Knight or Nightblade that does 5-10k more damage per second than we can do.

No kidding. My hits on an enemy with crystal blast downs him maybe 5%, if that. I keep getting powerhit, boom-dead, by some sort of enemy with one or two blows.

rogue_gamer32b14_ESO wrote: »

And thus I am re-rolling Dragon Knight. As ZoS favors them to no end and continuously keeps nerfing Sorcerers. I just hope I can bare the leveling of a new character.

That is something that I cannot do. A year of my time is enough of an investment in any game. I'll keep playing my sorc until I'm sick of it, and then I'll quit for good.

goatlyonesub17_ESO · March 2015

woodsro wrote: »

I'm not re rolling, ill make it work. The sorc will get changes in future updates, the templar and others will get needed at some point, the sorc has no where to go but up, think of it as an investment

I hope so. I've played two sorcerers to Veteran rank, and I've seen all the content other than maybe half of Craglorn, the other special Veteran areas, some of the Group Dungeons, and most of the PvE stuff in Cyrodiil. I can read a good book twice, but that's all. It just isn't worthwhile to re-roll a different class and play the character through the same old stuff that I've seen before. So, yeah, I hope that sorcs get upgraded so that they aren't such ridiculously easy prey for enemies in Alliance War PvP.

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

The problem with your statement, "Dps is not everything," is that for competitive endgame content, you need to maximize dps. Even with the upcoming changes in 1.6, the best trial scores will require groups to maximize dps. You can kill all the enemies and rack up no deaths, but the deciding factor will be who can accomplish all of the above in the shortest time. In order to kill enemies as quickly as possible, you must maximize dps... The problem is this: the optimal dps that a sorc can achieve is so much lower than other classes that their presence will have a negative impact on the efficacy of the group... both DK's and Templars will be more effective in terms of dps after 1.6. Even the most practiced and skilled sorcerers cannot come close to the other classes in terms of dps. Hence, it is counter-productive to have a sorc in your party in competitive PvE.

I've been kicked several times out of groups, and until now I'd had no idea why. It made me mad at my own alliance then, but now I understand why. Sorcerers just don't work well. Having sorcerers in your group, in Cyrodiil especially, when there are potential members of some more effective fighting or healing class, is a liability.

goatlyonesub17_ESO · March 2015

I have a few more things to say about playing ESO as a sorcerer.

First, for the early pre-Veteran levels in PvE, sorc characters work just fine. The playing is satisfyingly effective, and the monsters and nasty villains fall with only a minor struggle to the heroic sorcerer's Crystal Blast or Mages Wrath, provided she has considerable help from her summoned pets. There is no hint of the tragedy to come, months later, when as a VR14 the sorcerer mistakenly believes that she is able to meet alliance war enemies on the battlefields of Cyrodiil as an equal contestant.

Of course, such hints do come during the late part of the PvE content, especially during Caldwell's Gold, when the sorcerer meets (skull-and-crossbones) area bosses that she cannot kill solo, but which characters of other classes can kill without help. Still, those are NPC bosses. Surely the game wouldn't relegate one class abjectly inferior to all the others for PvP purposes. Surely...

And then with her first entry into Cyrodiil, the sorcerer gets what I've described as "the big, nasty surprise." Yep, she's inferior in PvP. Very much so. Whereas (she estimates) she might be able to kill one of those alliance-war enemies with 20 or so Crystal Blasts, if the enemy were AFK or would just hold still for the experiment, that same enemy can kill her with three blows, tops, which come in rapid sequence.

It has happened to me more than 100 times, and I'm as disgusted about it as I can be. I spend nearly all my time on my horse trying to get back into the action, where I stay for about 5 seconds, on the average. And I get booted from full or nearly full groups simply because I'm a sorc and therefore not as effective as a member belonging to another class.

goatlyonesub17_ESO · March 2015

The ONLY halfway decent spell a sorcerer can use is SOUL ASSAULT IV. I managed to kill an Aldmeri Dominion emperor with it once, but that was after several other members of my alliance had him much wounded. Generally, that's how it goes. Not even Soul Assault will bring down an enemy player by itself. The enemy must be wounded already and be unable to get a ward or drop out of line-of-sight during the four seconds the spell takes to finish. Also, the sorc must survive those four seconds, and that's an iffy proposition as things stand.