c0rp wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

At this point the people arguing the siege damage into the ground can obviously not be swayed. They refuse to understand this is an Alliance war. I'm sure there will plenty of fun to be had for them when there are PvP modes that don't involve siege. But for now, we will have to put up with the close-mindedness, because siege should hurt. The players who understand this and work their builds around this fact are now the skilled players. The ones who gripe because they cannot adapt, are not.

That's what people said about ground oils, but you were probably defending those too with the simply answer of "get out of the red circle nub". People who are defending the outrageous siege damage claiming this is alliance warfare obviously do not understand basic risk v reward and how it functions within a RvR game. In the end it is what it is, ZoS will make the game how they see fit, if they want to make this a siege warfare game that's fine. As soon as something gets unchained I am sure any player who is looking for a real realm vs realm will pack it up.

The funniest thing about this, is most of the names I see defending this new siege damage... screamed bloody murder that ground oils were imba.... its freaking hilarious.

No, they were actually screaming bloody murder that its *** you can stand in bubbling oil while your enemies melt instantly. It was dumb. It was stupid. It was ridiculously unrealistic. That was the issue with them, not the damage they caused.

is this real life? Are you being serious? OH MY GOD YOU ARE. Is your cognitive dissonance so bad you don't realize the massive hypocrisy of your post? You do know other siege doesn't have friendly fire right? You DO know that right? I.... I don't even know how to respond to this.... Remember my previous post everyone a few minutes ago about those guys that screamed bloody murder about ground oil, but totally dig this skillful siege damage change?

I give you exhibit A. ^^^


You can't make this **** up.

And if I have to make a point about how realism doesn't mean jack in a video game about daedric gods, zombies, being able to summon a meteor from outer space, and just the fact that I can rez people.....

I was waiting for this response, fitting that it is from you. There is a difference between "lore setting realism" and "fundamental realism". The lore of the game dictates daedric gods and zombies for example. Standing in bubbling oil like a God is just dumb. See the difference now? MMkay.

Just look at this guys sig.

Y

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what I just realized? PvPers (here and other places) often boast about how much more skilled they are than PvEers. How dueling is the only real test of a person's skill and ability. How the number of ears or scalps or noses you've got hanging from your belt is somehow indicative of how awesome you are and how only someone as elite as you could ever reach the same level of awesomeness no matter what the circumstances were when you got them.

You know what PvEers do all day, every day? Move out of the red circle of death.

I'm sorry but PvE counting the seconds til a red circle is thrown down..count one ...two...three...move to the left..1....2...3..everyone to the other corner...1...2....3 red circle move..is no comparison to dynamic pvp.

And yet they consistently manage to get out of the red circle while fulfilling their chosen role to the upper levels of it's potential whereas these "superior skilled" PvPers apparently cannot even manage to just not stand in it.

Because pve fights are scripted. They never change, it's easy to get used to a fight and knowing were to stand. A pvp fight is dynamic and ever changing they are not static like pve fights. But apparently you don't have the ability to grasp such an easy concept.

I believe I covered this earlier. It doesn't matter if they're scripted or not. You guys seem to be under the false impression that all PvE attack mechanics involving aoe simply puts the aoe in predetermined locations in the environment. Some fights do indeed have that element, however most fights consist of an aoe being placed at your feet just like siege. Many of these aoes will one shot you or darn close to it if you're not a tank, just like siege. The best way to mitigate it is to get out of it, just like siege. PvEers do it on a regular basis, but apparently there's a very noisy portion of the PvP community that simply cannot manage to figure out the basics.

The mechanics are all the same. The only difference is that there's a person using the siege, which only means that the aoe will not always be placed with you in the exact center of it.

I never said all AOEs land in predetermined locations. I said all fights are scripted and therefore can be learned and memorized. It is not just AOE that's are scripted, it is ALL boss and fight mechanics. Whether it be a massive AOE the group has to heal through, a massive spike thrown on the tank, or mechanics like in spindle where a link is made between two players and if they don't break it they die, or the mechanic of one player being chained down. Point here is ALL mechanics are scripted and can be learned and MEMORIZED.....and another very important fact, almost all AOEs or fight mechanics that will one shot you are very much telegraphed before they happen giving you the appropriate time to do what needs to be done to survive said attack....and where you mention the difference with siege is that it isn't placed under your feet, your right it may not be but you are also being targeted with 10 - 20 siege at any ONE time and repeatedly not every so often like it occurs in pve allowing the group time to regen. I also want to point out that the level of pve difficultly in ESO is really not that high when compared to other raiding games which require much higher levels of battlefield awareness and actual strategy. I will give you one example of this, previous games I raided in required groups to have two tanks because there would be boss mechanics debuffing tanks requiring them to switch back in fourth.

TLDR : pve scripted can be memorized, eso pve is very rudimentary. PVP is non scripted and dynamic therefore situations must be accounted for on the fly

Yes, I know exactly which raid you're talking about. I've been there many, many times myself. Guess what. You're still required to get out of the aoe when it comes down. If you don't and you're not one of the tanks then you will be one shot. That doesn't change whether it's a giant, filthy tentacle monster with a really big fist or a large, angry daedric prince or a level 10 newbie manning a trebuchet for the very first time.

Did you honestly think that I was only talking about ESO PvE? Think again. Most MMOs, and indeed many single player games as well, have this mechanic in place.

As for PvP being more "dynamic", not as much as you think. You're getting near a keep? There will be siege. You see a zerg running toward you? They will be attacking you. You can also expect certain types of attacks to coincide with each class as well. The fact remains, however, that you still have to move out of the aoe whether you knew it was coming or not.

krim wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I still haven't heard a single coherent argument as to why people think they should not have to move out of the siege circles and should be able to just survive being hit by them. Someone please give me your best argument for being able to survive these. I'm not interested in your opinions about skill, I want an actual reason why you feel you should be able to be hit with these.

Are you not skilled enough to roll dodge?
Are you not able to see the red circles around your feet?
Are you not fast enough or have ranged abilities to take out the person operating it?

Just give me one reason why countering these is so difficult.

I should be able to play the way i want.

LMFAO

kitsinni wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I still haven't heard a single coherent argument as to why people think they should not have to move out of the siege circles and should be able to just survive being hit by them. Someone please give me your best argument for being able to survive these. I'm not interested in your opinions about skill, I want an actual reason why you feel you should be able to be hit with these.

Are you not skilled enough to roll dodge?
Are you not able to see the red circles around your feet?
Are you not fast enough or have ranged abilities to take out the person operating it?

Just give me one reason why countering these is so difficult.

Because after knocking down a keep wall I can't tell if the red on the ground is oil or my teams siege for one reason. Being a stamina build if I am dodge rolling out of all of the red including my teams that basically means I can never enter a keep.

Okay so that's an argument to make ground based effects more clear especially when they are stacked. I am in favor of this. It still doesn't support a nerf to siege weapons.

nukeemstudiosub17_ESO wrote: »

Actually there is a bug with the siege damage ATM which is going to be fixed on monday's maintenance. But they still need to reduce the damage. I alone defeated a whole raid with nothing but a fire ballista. They should have been able to take me out no prob with that many people. This change has also made PvP VERY boring. There are hardly any real PvP encounters anymore. And when there are encounters they are quikly ended by someone who thinks they are good cause they can click one button sitting on a siege weapon

Fine tuning or not - if a whole raid doesn't get down one person with a fire ballista they are doing something completely wrong. Or - pardon me - you are just talking trash.
Also had some very fine pvp just yesterday exactly due to having effective siege engines in place, hence not possible to apply the usual train wreck bum rush the show tactics (applied to the extreme shortly after 1.6 which made the pvp boring indeed - at least for me).

c0rp wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

At this point the people arguing the siege damage into the ground can obviously not be swayed. They refuse to understand this is an Alliance war. I'm sure there will plenty of fun to be had for them when there are PvP modes that don't involve siege. But for now, we will have to put up with the close-mindedness, because siege should hurt. The players who understand this and work their builds around this fact are now the skilled players. The ones who gripe because they cannot adapt, are not.

That's what people said about ground oils, but you were probably defending those too with the simply answer of "get out of the red circle nub". People who are defending the outrageous siege damage claiming this is alliance warfare obviously do not understand basic risk v reward and how it functions within a RvR game. In the end it is what it is, ZoS will make the game how they see fit, if they want to make this a siege warfare game that's fine. As soon as something gets unchained I am sure any player who is looking for a real realm vs realm will pack it up.

The funniest thing about this, is most of the names I see defending this new siege damage... screamed bloody murder that ground oils were imba.... its freaking hilarious.

No, they were actually screaming bloody murder that its *** you can stand in bubbling oil while your enemies melt instantly. It was dumb. It was stupid. It was ridiculously unrealistic. That was the issue with them, not the damage they caused.

No they were not....people who ask for friendly fire in an MMO have no idea what their are talking about. Ground oil was ridiculous because it could be poured on the floor with zero elevation. Allowing groups to move together in a unit just oiling the floor everywhere they went. It was not the damage nor the fact that your allies could stand in it unharmed. At this very moment you are still able to stand in shower of friendly siege fire and take no damage while enemies around you melt. Realism has no place in this genre period....this is not a warfare simulation. This is an RvR game which is suppose to reward the players ability to synergize not only in their own build but with a group setting as well. A mechanic that allows people to override all of that planning and player input with the use of a consumable does not support the concept of what an RvR game strives to become. I would support siege damage in its currently implementation if these numbers were made though actual player input and thought into the build. If there was an alliance skill line dedicated to improving our effectiveness with siege, gear sets that synergized with said skills and champion passive to support this then yea, siege of this damage caliber would be acceptable because said player would have to build to be that effective. What we have now is a consumable which can override all of that player input I mentioned. With ever reward their must be risk, if said skills and passives existed then you could say said player can be very destructive with siege but in actually combat their effectiveness would be reduced because they choose to build for siege damage and effectiveness. What this means is that in order for combat systems to be engaging and meaningful there must be trade offs, the balance of risk vs reward must be maintained

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

At this point the people arguing the siege damage into the ground can obviously not be swayed. They refuse to understand this is an Alliance war. I'm sure there will plenty of fun to be had for them when there are PvP modes that don't involve siege. But for now, we will have to put up with the close-mindedness, because siege should hurt. The players who understand this and work their builds around this fact are now the skilled players. The ones who gripe because they cannot adapt, are not.

That's what people said about ground oils, but you were probably defending those too with the simply answer of "get out of the red circle nub". People who are defending the outrageous siege damage claiming this is alliance warfare obviously do not understand basic risk v reward and how it functions within a RvR game. In the end it is what it is, ZoS will make the game how they see fit, if they want to make this a siege warfare game that's fine. As soon as something gets unchained I am sure any player who is looking for a real realm vs realm will pack it up.

The funniest thing about this, is most of the names I see defending this new siege damage... screamed bloody murder that ground oils were imba.... its freaking hilarious.

No, they were actually screaming bloody murder that its *** you can stand in bubbling oil while your enemies melt instantly. It was dumb. It was stupid. It was ridiculously unrealistic. That was the issue with them, not the damage they caused.

No they were not....people who ask for friendly fire in an MMO have no idea what their are talking about. Ground oil was ridiculous because it could be poured on the floor with zero elevation. Allowing groups to move together in a unit just oiling the floor everywhere they went. It was not the damage nor the fact that your allies could stand in it unharmed. At this very moment you are still able to stand in shower of friendly siege fire and take no damage while enemies around you melt. Realism has no place in this genre period....this is not a warfare simulation. This is an RvR game which is suppose to reward the players ability to synergize not only in their own build but with a group setting as well. A mechanic that allows people to override all of that planning and player input with the use of a consumable does not support the concept of what an RvR game strives to become. I would support siege damage in its currently implementation if these numbers were made though actual player input and thought into the build. If there was an alliance skill line dedicated to improving our effectiveness with siege, gear sets that synergized with said skills and champion passive to support this then yea, siege of this damage caliber would be acceptable because said player would have to build to be that effective. What we have now is a consumable which can override all of that player input I mentioned. With ever reward their must be risk, if said skills and passives existed then you could say said player can be very destructive with siege but in actually combat their effectiveness would be reduced because they choose to build for siege damage and effectiveness. What this means is that in order for combat systems to be engaging and meaningful there must be trade offs, the balance of risk vs reward must be maintained

Good point, I like where this is going.

Glurin wrote: »

I believe I covered this earlier. It doesn't matter if they're scripted or not. You guys seem to be under the false impression that all PvE attack mechanics involving aoe simply puts the aoe in predetermined locations in the environment. Some fights do indeed have that element, however most fights consist of an aoe being placed at your feet just like siege. Many of these aoes will one shot you or darn close to it if you're not a tank, just like siege. The best way to mitigate it is to get out of it, just like siege. PvEers do it on a regular basis, but apparently there's a very noisy portion of the PvP community that simply cannot manage to figure out the basics.

The mechanics are all the same. The only difference is that there's a person using the siege, which only means that the aoe will not always be placed with you in the exact center of it.

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, I know exactly which raid you're talking about. I've been there many, many times myself. Guess what. You're still required to get out of the aoe when it comes down. If you don't and you're not one of the tanks then you will be one shot. That doesn't change whether it's a giant, filthy tentacle monster with a really big fist or a large, angry daedric prince or a level 10 newbie manning a trebuchet for the very first time.

It definitely matters, because again the giant tentacle monster is scripted, and will do said AOE at a certain time, some bosses even do things at specific percentages. Where as that lvl 10 on a fire treb is actually a REAL person with a brain that no AI can match. So if your not able to see how something being scripted and telegraphed before any red circles appear is different from a real person dynamically making their decisions on the fly then this argument is going no where.

Glurin wrote: »

Did you honestly think that I was only talking about ESO PvE? Think again. Most MMOs, and indeed many single player games as well, have this mechanic in place.

So you agree pve in ESO is watered down please don't even bring single player games into this they have no place in this discussion.

Glurin wrote: »

As for PvP being more "dynamic", not as much as you think. You're getting near a keep? There will be siege. You see a zerg running toward you? They will be attacking you. You can also expect certain types of attacks to coincide with each class as well. The fact remains, however, that you still have to move out of the aoe whether you knew it was coming or not.

Just because you can predict what will happen in a general sense doesn't mean it's the same as a completely scripted AI battle. The things your saying here is the equivalent of me saying pve all boils down to "see a monster you kill it an get loot". What else did you think would be happening in an RvR zone ? Flower picking ? Of course keep sieges were expected before the game even launched. The only thing you said that makes any sense is the fact that you can expect certain kinds of attacks/defenses from specific classes, but even then you don't know if or when said abilities will be used, hence the why pvp is dynamic.

Without purging or damage shield, or siege shield, yeah. If you're not going to do at least one of those, you should probably hit the dodge roll key.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

I believe I covered this earlier. It doesn't matter if they're scripted or not. You guys seem to be under the false impression that all PvE attack mechanics involving aoe simply puts the aoe in predetermined locations in the environment. Some fights do indeed have that element, however most fights consist of an aoe being placed at your feet just like siege. Many of these aoes will one shot you or darn close to it if you're not a tank, just like siege. The best way to mitigate it is to get out of it, just like siege. PvEers do it on a regular basis, but apparently there's a very noisy portion of the PvP community that simply cannot manage to figure out the basics.

The mechanics are all the same. The only difference is that there's a person using the siege, which only means that the aoe will not always be placed with you in the exact center of it.

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, I know exactly which raid you're talking about. I've been there many, many times myself. Guess what. You're still required to get out of the aoe when it comes down. If you don't and you're not one of the tanks then you will be one shot. That doesn't change whether it's a giant, filthy tentacle monster with a really big fist or a large, angry daedric prince or a level 10 newbie manning a trebuchet for the very first time.

It definitely matters, because again the giant tentacle monster is scripted, and will do said AOE at a certain time, some bosses even do things at specific percentages. Where as that lvl 10 on a fire treb is actually a REAL person with a brain that no AI can match. So if your not able to see how something being scripted and telegraphed before any red circles appear is different from a real person dynamically making their decisions on the fly then this argument is going no where.

How exactly does having more any more warning change the fact that you have to get out of it when it comes? In exactly 3.58 minutes your opponent is going to lay down a ten yard radius aoe centered on your feet. What are you going to do? Run around like an idiot hoping that when it comes it won't be centered on you? You still only have a couple of seconds to escape once it happens.

Besides that, how much more telegraphing do you need? It's not like siege is some kind of derringer he's got hidden up his sleeve that he can shoot you with before you know what's happening. It's a big honkin piece of wood that has to be turned toward you and makes a lot of noise when it fires. Then it takes forever to reload so it can do it again. Plus, when you see a siege engine go up, what else do you think he might do with it exactly? He's either going to shoot at a wall or shoot at you. He's not going putting it up in the middle of a battle just so he can pose for some selfies.

Glurin wrote: »

Did you honestly think that I was only talking about ESO PvE? Think again. Most MMOs, and indeed many single player games as well, have this mechanic in place.

So you agree pve in ESO is watered down please don't even bring single player games into this they have no place in this discussion.

They apply, so I will bring them in if necessary. The basic mechanics do not change just because there's a person on the other end rather than a computer.

Glurin wrote: »

As for PvP being more "dynamic", not as much as you think. You're getting near a keep? There will be siege. You see a zerg running toward you? They will be attacking you. You can also expect certain types of attacks to coincide with each class as well. The fact remains, however, that you still have to move out of the aoe whether you knew it was coming or not.

Just because you can predict what will happen in a general sense doesn't mean it's the same as a completely scripted AI battle. The things your saying here is the equivalent of me saying pve all boils down to "see a monster you kill it an get loot". What else did you think would be happening in an RvR zone ? Flower picking ? Of course keep sieges were expected before the game even launched. The only thing you said that makes any sense is the fact that you can expect certain kinds of attacks/defenses from specific classes, but even then you don't know if or when said abilities will be used, hence the why pvp is dynamic.

Well actually, there is in fact some flower picking going on in Cyrodiil. Most of them are alchemists or clothiers. There's also rock collecting and wood chopping. Probably a little fishing too.

Anyway, if you know that there is going to be siege, how exactly does that qualify as being unpredictable and dynamic? See a keep, there will be siege, it will shoot at you. Are you maybe thinking the siege is going to randomly blow up or throw flower petals or something?