Why I think PVP Enforcers would be a bad idea...

Necrelios · March 2015

What's the difference between getting killed by a guard or getting killed by a player? All you have to loose is your pride. Either way, so long as you can make it to the outlaw refuge before getting killed you can pay to have your items laundered and can pay off your bounty there to avoid aggression from player enforcers.

Dru1076 · March 2015

Necrelios wrote: »

What's the difference between getting killed by a guard or getting killed by a player? All you have to loose is your pride. Either way, so long as you can make it to the outlaw refuge before getting killed you can pay to have your items laundered and can pay off your bounty there to avoid aggression from player enforcers.

The difference is good PVP players won't be getting killed by the Enforcers.

Though as I write this...i feel a strange desire to tell you your post is awesome....and that maybe i a.g.r.e.e.....

HungerCity · March 2015

Simple solution
Make it so your only flagged for PvP if your bounty gets too high (multiple crimes) this way if you just want to steal, clear your 69gold bounty if your caught and your fine! If you go on a killing spree their should be consequences. People saying oooooh now I wont be able to steal is BS......

DeLindsay · March 2015

First, I'm all for the PvP portion of the Justice System. The reason I don't care is I almost never get caught and know each Town that I run my Thievery business in like the back of my hand (like any good Criminal should). I'm no PvP pro but I'm no slouch either and I can withstand a beating for long enough to get where I'm going.

Secondly, do people realize that you have to be KoS for a Player to exact Justice on you? It's absurdly easy to keep from getting to KoS level of Bounty. I actually can't understand how some people are getting such high Bounties (without trying to I mean).

Third, no matter what ZoS does, Players WILL BE [snip] and camp entrances to Outlaw's Refuges, period. And they will be out in force on their VR14 in full Legendary gear just salivating at the thought of destroying some Level 38 who just happens to try and sneak into the Refuge. They will then ofc teabags their corpse and yell profanities at them just like any good 12yr old does. You can sit there and say it won't happen but it does in every single game where there's open World PvP.

Lastly, Consequences are good and TES games have them, like it or not. The entire Player base that is mad because they're "forced to steal" to do Provision just crack me up. So it's been ok for them to steal everything that wasn't nailed down until now but all the sudden they have some objection to it. More likely they still want to steal everything that isn't nailed down and have ZERO consequences involved. These folks are exactly why Player Justice should be implemented because they're an insult to TES games.

Moderator note: Edited per our rules on profanity.

Ysne58 · March 2015

It may be easy to avoid KOS status @DeLindsay . It's also ridiculously easy to get rofl. All one has to do is get caught by a guard and flea. That is in instant KOS action. What's really amazing is that the few times I have been caught and fled I did manage to flea successfully, I suck at this but it's fun. It's a real challenge for the first few minutes until I can get far enough away to be able to completely avoid the guards.

Necrelios · March 2015

I'm sure there will be some thieves that do enjoy PvP, and come to the fight prepared. I would expect the enforcers to have their hands full. If they want to camp the entrances to the outlaw refuges, let them try. I suspect eventually enough outlaws will come to put up a real fight. This will be fun to watch.

DeLindsay · March 2015

Ysne58 wrote: »

It may be easy to avoid KOS status @DeLindsay . It's also ridiculously easy to get rofl. All one has to do is get caught by a guard and flea. That is in instant KOS action. What's really amazing is that the few times I have been caught and fled I did manage to flea successfully, I suck at this but it's fun. It's a real challenge for the first few minutes until I can get far enough away to be able to completely avoid the guards.

It's even less than you know. Fail ONE Pickpocket of any Guard and even with only an 89g (at VR14) Bounty you're instantly KoS. That aside it's really not that hard to keep from being KoS, at least it's easy enough that I would love to constantly frustrate Players hoping to attack me but not being able to because my Bounty never gets high enough, call it a game if you will, cat and mouse (who's the mouse hehe).

Enodoc · March 2015

Necrelios wrote: »

What's the difference between getting killed by a guard or getting killed by a player? All you have to loose is your pride. Either way, so long as you can make it to the outlaw refuge before getting killed you can pay to have your items laundered and can pay off your bounty there to avoid aggression from player enforcers.

On that note, it's better to be killed by a player than a PvE enemy as you don't lose any gear durability (at least in Cyrodiil). I wonder if that will change for Justice PvP...

DeLindsay wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

It may be easy to avoid KOS status @DeLindsay . It's also ridiculously easy to get rofl. All one has to do is get caught by a guard and flea. That is in instant KOS action. What's really amazing is that the few times I have been caught and fled I did manage to flea successfully, I suck at this but it's fun. It's a real challenge for the first few minutes until I can get far enough away to be able to completely avoid the guards.

It's even less than you know. Fail ONE Pickpocket of any Guard and even with only an 89g (at VR14) Bounty you're instantly KoS. That aside it's really not that hard to keep from being KoS, at least it's easy enough that I would love to constantly frustrate Players hoping to attack me but not being able to because my Bounty never gets high enough, call it a game if you will, cat and mouse (who's the mouse hehe).

Does enough Heat make you KoS, even if you have a low bounty? That is, can you become KoS just from the red bit of the meter as well as the white bit? If so, it would be quite easy to become KoS with a low bounty if you are witnessed committing crimes frequently.

DeLindsay · March 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Does enough Heat make you KoS, even if you have a low bounty? That is, can you become KoS just from the red bit of the meter as well as the white bit? If so, it would be quite easy to become KoS with a low bounty if you are witnessed committing crimes frequently.

KoS is based on 2 mechanics. The main way is to be caught by Citizens committing enough crimes to drive up your Bounty high enough (537g at VR14) the minimum is 1 crime, maximum is 6 (within 3 minutes). The fastest way is to commit a crime against a Guard, they have zero sense of humor and you are immediately KoS, regardless of Bounty gained.

Keeping from being caught is VERY easy, you just have to pay attention to NPC's pats. They have a tell when they're about to change location, they kind of stand more upright and pause any body movement right before changing positions. On the same token it's easy to forget you have a small Bounty and get too close to a Guard and then you have little choice but pay up or become KoS.

Bounty is gained by what Crime you committed when you were caught. Stealing from owned Containers is the smallest Bounty and you can be caught up to 5 times doing so before you are KoS. Attacking an innocent (makes no difference if you then kill them) is more severe and you can only do so once before you are KoS. If you are still interested head over to me Legerdemain thread in my signature for details about everything regarding the current Justice System (obviously does not include PvP as of yet).

Kupoking · March 2015

Hey op. If you dont want to be caugh stealing by another player Maybe you should change game? Maybe skyrim would be better off for you? No pesky pvper to stop you

vyndral13preub18_ESO · March 2015

As long as the flagged 'enforcers' are flagged pvp and can be attacked by criminals first it wont be a problem. Or atleast not as big. Now if they arent flagged amd only become flagged when they start a fight on a criminal it will be a huge problem.

I hope they do it right and basically make it open world pvp between criminals and enforcers. You will end up with gangs and people watching your back. If they do it wrong it will be a bunch of ganker children.

Dru1076 · March 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Hey op. If you dont want to be caugh stealing by another player Maybe you should change game? Maybe skyrim would be better off for you? No pesky pvper to stop you

I'm not worried about that. But thanks for the advice

BBSooner · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I have to completely disagree with the OP. Allowing player enforcers could finally allow ZOS to remove the invincible guards since a large force could mobilize to defend a town if a large attack was made against the NPCs. This adds for a more dynamic world to exist instead of as currently implemented where a single instance of crime that is caught has 1 of 2 outcomes.

The justice system is about consequences. Fearing the consequences of crime is natural, and should be a deterrent. It breaths life in to the game and gives your actions weight.

Very likely, should it be implemented, unless you are a murderer and have high heat there will be a PvE barrier before a player is able to get involved. You will probably be given the choice to pay your bounty, or run, in which case if you run the player is able to assist the guard in catching you. The fears that a player will be able to loom over your character and kill you for stealing a 25g item from a barrel feel incredibly unwarranted as it will likely not be implemented in that manner (in defiance of some people's opinions). Admittedly, this is pure speculation, but I believe the system will neither be as open as some would like, nor was restricted as others.

For someone who completely disagrees with me, you say a lot of stuff that indicates otherwise. If you read all my posts in here, then you'd know I am not so worried now I was. And as for the justice system offering a deterrent, how is the threat of being chased down by an enforcer going to deter someone who loves PVP? Wouldn't it have the opposite effect?

I am sure there will be a way around this... Perhaps by enticing some of the best and brightest PVP players to the side of justice somehow.

I was responding solely to the OP. So if you've altered your stance since your original post then I'm very much glad

As for the deterrent issue, would that not be working as intended? Much like real world justice/crime those who seek confrontation would seek crime (in either a lawful or criminal capacity) for the thrill and eventual confrontation, while those who don't wish for confrontation would abide by the law either out of conscience or are deterred by the reprocussions of committing crime. That's not to say that there won't be criminals who also don't want to be confronted - but gameplay likely won't change for them. They are already taking measures to be the 'Master Thief' and (though pure conjecture) I think it's very likely if they aren't being caught by the NPC guards, the enforcers won't be able to remedy that.

This is what I mean when I mention that it breaths life in to an otherwise mechanical system. The player is presented with actual dilemmas (some of which could be upsetting to some players) where actions in this world have weight - even though the consequences of those actions are very much appropriate within the context of the game.

Rammi · March 2015

YAWN!!!

and thats all i got to say about that!

Enodoc · March 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Does enough Heat make you KoS, even if you have a low bounty? That is, can you become KoS just from the red bit of the meter as well as the white bit? If so, it would be quite easy to become KoS with a low bounty if you are witnessed committing crimes frequently.

KoS is based on 2 mechanics. The main way is to be caught by Citizens committing enough crimes to drive up your Bounty high enough (537g at VR14) the minimum is 1 crime, maximum is 6 (within 3 minutes). The fastest way is to commit a crime against a Guard, they have zero sense of humor and you are immediately KoS, regardless of Bounty gained.

Heat increases (and decays) a lot faster than Bounty though, which was the basis of my question. Seems like Heat does count though, which makes actual Bounty less relevant in the long-run of whether you are KoS or not. If you steal a few items in quick succession, and are witnessed by a citizen each time, I assume you can become KoS with a lower Bounty than 537.

Divinius · March 2015

I am still going to call that the PvP enforcers will never actually be implemented, but just in case I turn out to be wrong...

If you care about achievements, be sure to get all the Justice system ones now. Many of them will be significantly harder, or even virtually impossible, if PvP enforcers actually happen.

It's actually kinda funny... Given that the current state of the game basically requires being a criminal, the most "evil" players are going to be the ones on the side of "justice"...

wraith808 · March 2015

Divinius wrote: »

I am still going to call that the PvP enforcers will never actually be implemented, but just in case I turn out to be wrong...

If you care about achievements, be sure to get all the Justice system ones now. Many of them will be significantly harder, or even virtually impossible, if PvP enforcers actually happen.

It's actually kinda funny... Given that the current state of the game basically requires being a criminal, the most "evil" players are going to be the ones on the side of "justice"...

Why does it require that you be a criminal?

FreedomDude · March 2015

I thought those who had a bounty over 1000G would be flagged for PvP? I remember Zenimax saying something like that anyway...

ElSlayer · March 2015

Well, at least it will finally give us possibility to duel each other, right?

Divinius · March 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Why does it require that you be a criminal?

My post from another thread:

Divinius wrote: »

The main problem is that the justice system as currently implemented almost forces players to become criminals. There are quests where you are required to break into a house to complete them, precious few areas that have the higher tier containers (chests, dressers, etc) that aren't owned, and too many ways to incur a bounty unintentionally, even with the "prevent attacking innocents" safety feature turned on.

Sure, it is technically possible to never commit a crime, but it is a pretty severe handicap to lead a "perfectly honest" life.

Without a major overhaul to how a lot of the system works, allowing PvP into the system will pretty much do nothing but give griefers a tool to make normal players' lives miserable.

If they never implement this aspect of the system, I'd be perfectly ok with that.

Enodoc · March 2015

FreedomDude wrote: »

I thought those who had a bounty over 1000G would be flagged for PvP? I remember Zenimax saying something like that anyway...

That may have been before they decided on the specific bounty values for different crimes. 1000g was the standard "murder" bounty in some previous TES games, so they may have used that as a basis.

It makes more sense though that if you are KoS, you are also flagged PvP, regardless of your actual bounty.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Why does it require that you be a criminal?

My post from another thread:

Divinius wrote: »

The main problem is that the justice system as currently implemented almost forces players to become criminals. There are quests where you are required to break into a house to complete them, precious few areas that have the higher tier containers (chests, dressers, etc) that aren't owned, and too many ways to incur a bounty unintentionally, even with the "prevent attacking innocents" safety feature turned on.

Sure, it is technically possible to never commit a crime, but it is a pretty severe handicap to lead a "perfectly honest" life.

Without a major overhaul to how a lot of the system works, allowing PvP into the system will pretty much do nothing but give griefers a tool to make normal players' lives miserable.

If they never implement this aspect of the system, I'd be perfectly ok with that.

And that post is still horribly inaccurate.

1. No quest should (if they do, report it, but I have yet to run in to one on my alts) require you to break in to a house in a way that is actually considered a Justice System violation.

2. Why does having fewer dressers, etc. to loot from require you to be a thief? If you don't want to be a thief, don't steal. You'll just have less selection in terms of where you look for items, which is exactly as it should be.

3. You cannot incur a bounty accidentally. You can make a mistake that leads to you receiving a bounty. But you can only incur a bounty through your direct actions.

4. I've got two alts who don't commit crimes and one main who does. I've never had an issue with either of the alts getting caught up in the Justice System. Neither of them feel handicapped in any way whatsoever.

And all that PvP will do is actually create severe consequences for lawbreakers, which seems to be in line with what you'd like. People will be less willing to break the law if they know that they won't be able to dive in to the water to escape justice.

Zhoyzu · March 2015

I play for this games PvP. I'm not a fan of the pve. The story line is great but you can only experience it so many tomes before stale.

As much as I like PvP I want to keep the PvP out of the pve. If I want to level my ledgermain line I dont wanna be harassed by another player. Its the same reason pvpers don't want a hardcore pve guild running through a SRS PvP campaign taking up the limited spaces available for those SRS about PvP.

They need to remain separate IMO.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · March 2015

Be sneakier....things have consequences. What they should do is something like in tera where you declare yourself an outlaw or in this case an enforcer. So basically you can only be an enforcer if the skill or passive is currently toggled to active. In this case, if you are in enforcer mode people sneaking cannot be seen, just like in normal avava PvP. So they couldn't just sit and wait for someone to sneak and instantly attack an unhidden target. Once you have a bounty on your head however, whenever you are not sneaking an icon appears over your head that only those with the enforcer declaration active. Its easy to implement since its basically how PvP already is. They just need to add a new icon for bounty and a new skill or mode for enforcers. There would be a timer as well, say 30 seconds so it takes 30 seconds for enforcer mode to activate before you can become the enforcer so people can't just sit and wait for someone to steal something, instantly turn enforcer and attack.

wraith808 · March 2015

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Why does it require that you be a criminal?

My post from another thread:

Divinius wrote: »

The main problem is that the justice system as currently implemented almost forces players to become criminals. There are quests where you are required to break into a house to complete them, precious few areas that have the higher tier containers (chests, dressers, etc) that aren't owned, and too many ways to incur a bounty unintentionally, even with the "prevent attacking innocents" safety feature turned on.

Sure, it is technically possible to never commit a crime, but it is a pretty severe handicap to lead a "perfectly honest" life.

Without a major overhaul to how a lot of the system works, allowing PvP into the system will pretty much do nothing but give griefers a tool to make normal players' lives miserable.

If they never implement this aspect of the system, I'd be perfectly ok with that.

Are any of these major quests? Or just side quests? Sometimes you have to do criminal things for side quests... and yes, they should be criminal. But you don't have to for primary quests. So I can't see where you're forced to do them...

And as far as the containers, you have to go out into the wild. There are several places that have containers that you can farm to your heart's content in order to not be a criminal.

BBSooner · March 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Why does it require that you be a criminal?

My post from another thread:

Divinius wrote: »

The main problem is that the justice system as currently implemented almost forces players to become criminals. There are quests where you are required to break into a house to complete them, precious few areas that have the higher tier containers (chests, dressers, etc) that aren't owned, and too many ways to incur a bounty unintentionally, even with the "prevent attacking innocents" safety feature turned on.

Sure, it is technically possible to never commit a crime, but it is a pretty severe handicap to lead a "perfectly honest" life.

Without a major overhaul to how a lot of the system works, allowing PvP into the system will pretty much do nothing but give griefers a tool to make normal players' lives miserable.

If they never implement this aspect of the system, I'd be perfectly ok with that.

Are any of these major quests? Or just side quests? Sometimes you have to do criminal things for side quests... and yes, they should be criminal. But you don't have to for primary quests. So I can't see where you're forced to do them...

And as far as the containers, you have to go out into the wild. There are several places that have containers that you can farm to your heart's content in order to not be a criminal.

I want to say there is a quest for the city of Ebonheart (Stonefalls) where you have to break in to a house ... I could be wrong but I also want to say it is part of a questline required for Cadwells. If I'm remembering the situation correctly that would require a criminal act to progress.

However, even if that were the case, I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get caught as long as you're sneaking. No guards patrol near the building/nobody looks directly at the door so no NPC would notice, so I can't imagine a bounty be accrued for the quest even under the most amateur circumstances.

But, that's assuming that I'm recalling the inclusion of this questline in Cadwells correctly.

Even so, I take issue with the assumption that being a petty thief is required in this game. Is it more convenient at times? Sure. However, following the law is meant to be less convenient, so 'Working as intended'. It's only with the inclusion of the justice system that there are reprocussions for 'taking the easy way', and Enforcer vs Criminal activity is just another possible reprocussion.

Enodoc · March 2015

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Be sneakier....things have consequences. What they should do is something like in tera where you declare yourself an outlaw or in this case an enforcer. [...] There would be a timer as well, say 30 seconds so it takes 30 seconds for enforcer mode to activate before you can become the enforcer so people can't just sit and wait for someone to steal something, instantly turn enforcer and attack.

I believe that's the plan already. Enforcers have to wear a tabard (or something) to declare their involvement in enforcing, andare only able to change their status inside the Enforcers Barracks (or whatever they call it).

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

1. No quest should (if they do, report it, but I have yet to run in to one on my alts) require you to break in to a house in a way that is actually considered a Justice System violation.

There are a few quests that require that now, just like there were in previous TES games. The ones that do were listed in the Update 6 Patch Notes.

wraith808 · March 2015

[quote="BBSooner;1675973"Even so, I take issue with the assumption that being a petty thief is required in this game. Is it more convenient at times? Sure. However, following the law is meant to be less convenient, so 'Working as intended'. It's only with the inclusion of the justice system that there are reprocussions for 'taking the easy way', and Enforcer vs Criminal activity is just another possible reprocussion.[/quote]

Agreed. I look at it akin to using the passives on the Mage's Guild and Fighter's guild. Those make the quest easier, but you might/will be doing things that are not necessarily in character in order to make things easier. This is a similar choice- as long as these quests are not in the main quest line.

And no, that house that you have to break into is not governed by the justice system- the inhabitants are dead already.

Divinius · March 2015

The VAST majority of the higher-tier containers (the ones that contain recipes/motifs/etc far more frequently) are all owned now. If you want to avoid ever getting a bounty, you have to be very careful about what you loot now (which is fine, in and of itself).

But the fact is that if you NEVER commit a crime, you are severely handicapping yourself now. The game is designed such that players are expected to commit crimes, at least occasionally. Yes, it's technically optional, but so is everything else in the game. For example, you don't need to have or feed a mount, either. But imagine if they made it so that there were players that were allowed to beat the tar out of you every time you tried to feed your horse. That would just suck, and be stupid.

That's my opinion of PvP enforcers. It would be a system that simply allows players to get their PvP jollies off of beating on people who are just trying to play the game as designed.

Tandor · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

The enforcer mechanic will pretty much work the same way as it is now with guards.

1) You need to be caught before getting a bounty.
2) You need a high bounty before guards (and enforcers) will KoS you, otherwise guards will just ask that you pay the fine.
3) Being an enforcer will be a choice. If you don't think you can (or want to) take out the thieves, then don't enforce.

You can completely avoid PvP by:
1) Not getting caught.
2) Don't get your bounty too high.
3) Pay fines.
4) Not steal.

How is this hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand, but then nor is it hard to understand why some players just don't want PvP in PvE areas at all, let alone PvP consequences for PvE crimes in those PvE areas.

I'd have more respect for those calling for PvP to be introduced into the open world if they also supported the calls for a PvE campaign/instance to be introduced in Cyrodiil. All they really want, however, is full-on open world PvP and they see this as the first step to achieving that.