Why I think PVP Enforcers would be a bad idea...

Fleshreaper · March 2015

This system has so many ways that it could be abused. Player A attempts to steal a rare Motif and gets caught. Guards start chasing player A. Player B joins in and Player A gets killed and the rare motif taken away. Player A is angry but there is nothing they can do. Player A sees Player B braking the law and returns the favor. Now player B is angry and get his guild involved. Player B starts trolling chat and Player A now has a bad reputation.

And before you say, "Oh, that would never happen" remember this is the internet and a MMO. We certainly now how poisonous some popular players can be.

Ley · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

This system has so many ways that it could be abused. Player A attempts to steal a rare Motif and gets caught. Guards start chasing player A. Player B joins in and Player A gets killed and the rare motif taken away. Player A is angry but there is nothing they can do. Player A sees Player B braking the law and returns the favor. Now player B is angry and get his guild involved. Player B starts trolling chat and Player A now has a bad reputation.

And before you say, "Oh, that would never happen" remember this is the internet and a MMO. We certainly now how poisonous some popular players can be.

That's my favorite part of open world pvp, good ol' rivalry and a dash of drama.

BBSooner · March 2015

I have to completely disagree with the OP. Allowing player enforcers could finally allow ZOS to remove the invincible guards since a large force could mobilize to defend a town if a large attack was made against the NPCs. This adds for a more dynamic world to exist instead of as currently implemented where a single instance of crime that is caught has 1 of 2 outcomes.

The justice system is about consequences. Fearing the consequences of crime is natural, and should be a deterrent. It breaths life in to the game and gives your actions weight.

Very likely, should it be implemented, unless you are a murderer and have high heat there will be a PvE barrier before a player is able to get involved. You will probably be given the choice to pay your bounty, or run, in which case if you run the player is able to assist the guard in catching you. The fears that a player will be able to loom over your character and kill you for stealing a 25g item from a barrel feel incredibly unwarranted as it will likely not be implemented in that manner (in defiance of some people's opinions). Admittedly, this is pure speculation, but I believe the system will neither be as open as some would like, nor was restricted as others.

Gix · March 2015

The enforcer mechanic will pretty much work the same way as it is now with guards.

1) You need to be caught before getting a bounty.
2) You need a high bounty before guards (and enforcers) will KoS you, otherwise guards will just ask that you pay the fine.
3) Being an enforcer will be a choice. If you don't think you can (or want to) take out the thieves, then don't enforce.

You can completely avoid PvP by:
1) Not getting caught.
2) Don't get your bounty too high.
3) Pay fines.
4) Not steal.

How is this hard to understand?

Chuggernaut · March 2015

I would hope ZOS wouldn't allow a v14 to hunt a level 10, and if they did, I would hope the reward is so low it would almost be not worth to track the player down.

Gix · March 2015

Chuggernaut wrote: »

I would hope ZOS wouldn't allow a v14 to hunt a level 10, and if they did, I would hope the reward is so low it would almost be not worth to track the player down.

My guess is that the rewards will be based on notoriety.; not level.

The worst thing you can do is prevent people from playing in the same playground. Not only does that reduce the amount of participants, where's the thrill of stealing if your opponents are only going to be dumb guards or people of your level?

Enforcers will most likely camp the entrances to the sanctuaries. This will be really interesting. Either the thieves will engage combat to get through, or everybody will play cat-&-mouse through the various cities to see which sanctuary the thieves will go to.

... in hindsight, this is probably why the enforcers aren't live yet.

wraith808 · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

Chuggernaut wrote: »

I would hope ZOS wouldn't allow a v14 to hunt a level 10, and if they did, I would hope the reward is so low it would almost be not worth to track the player down.

My guess is that the rewards will be based on notoriety.; not level.

The worst thing you can do is prevent people from playing in the same playground. Not only does that reduce the amount of participants, where's the thrill of stealing if your opponents are only going to be dumb guards or people of your level?

Enforcers will most likely camp the entrances to the sanctuaries. This will be really interesting. Either the thieves will engage combat to get through, or everybody will play cat-&-mouse through the various cities to see which sanctuary the thieves will go to.

... in hindsight, this is probably why the enforcers aren't live yet.

But it sounds so awesome that it gives me shivers.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

The enforcer mechanic will pretty much work the same way as it is now with guards.

1) You need to be caught before getting a bounty.
2) You need a high bounty before guards (and enforcers) will KoS you, otherwise guards will just ask that you pay the fine.
3) Being an enforcer will be a choice. If you don't think you can (or want to) take out the thieves, then don't enforce.

You can completely avoid PvP by:
1) Not getting caught.
2) Don't get your bounty too high.
3) Pay fines.
4) Not steal.

How is this hard to understand?

Exactly.

I ran a (100% unofficial) poll on this a while back, and forum users were overwhelmingly in support of the PvP elements of the Justice System.

As it currently stands, the system is too easy. Do I run a risk of getting caught? Sure. Do I run a significant risk of actually having to pay my bounty to the guards? Not really. Player enforcers can ensure that exploitable NPC behavior won't be the only deterrent to thieving.

wraith808 · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I ran a (100% unofficial) poll on this a while back, and forum users were overwhelmingly in support of the PvP elements of the Justice System.

As usual (because it's my pet peeve), I have to point out that using a poll on the forums as a basis for an argument is a logical fallacy for several reasons. They aren't scientific as portrayed here and for entertainment purposes only.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

wraith808 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I ran a (100% unofficial) poll on this a while back, and forum users were overwhelmingly in support of the PvP elements of the Justice System.

As usual (because it's my pet peeve), I have to point out that using a poll on the forums as a basis for an argument is a logical fallacy for several reasons. They aren't scientific as portrayed here and for entertainment purposes only.

Yes, I'm well aware. But as the poll included hundreds of votes and was overwhelmingly in favor of PvP enforcement, I felt it was worth mentioning.

GathordRoamereb17_ESO · March 2015

Fleshreaper wrote: »

This system has so many ways that it could be abused. Player A attempts to steal a rare Motif and gets caught. Guards start chasing player A. Player B joins in and Player A gets killed and the rare motif taken away. Player A is angry but there is nothing they can do. Player A sees Player B braking the law and returns the favor. Now player B is angry and get his guild involved. Player B starts trolling chat and Player A now has a bad reputation.

And before you say, "Oh, that would never happen" remember this is the internet and a MMO. We certainly now how poisonous some popular players can be.

Oh look, you just described something that would add life to this MMO

There is nothing wrong with guild rivalry, absolutely nothing.

WraithAzraiel · March 2015

Personally I hope we get a cut of whatever the individual's bounty is.

Like if some knucklehead's running around with a 120k bounty, I hope we get at least half. Also, I hope you can participate in both.

Sometimes you feel like a nut, right?

wraith808 · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I ran a (100% unofficial) poll on this a while back, and forum users were overwhelmingly in support of the PvP elements of the Justice System.

As usual (because it's my pet peeve), I have to point out that using a poll on the forums as a basis for an argument is a logical fallacy for several reasons. They aren't scientific as portrayed here and for entertainment purposes only.

Yes, I'm well aware. But as the poll included hundreds of votes and was overwhelmingly in favor of PvP enforcement, I felt it was worth mentioning.

Not really. As you aptly stated in another post: Please think more scientifically.

Now, I agree with your underlying assessment. But lying with statistics doesn't really help that. The truth needs no defense.

Grao · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)

I understand where you are coming from, but the PvP part of the Justice System is an important element to the future of the game. The guards we have right now, while Immortal, are just too easy to get around of. Enforcer Players would be far more interesting and will stimulate other players to look more closely into PvP.

Besides, you lose nothing if an Enforcer catches you except a little bit of Gold and the items you stole. A smart person would work on always keeping their bounty close to 0, so if they do get caught, they don't lose too much. Also, it is not like enforcers will be able to chase you into the wild. They will probably only be able to act within the cities boundaries and close surroundings just like the NPC guards, not to mention you can always run to the closest bandits hide hole.

As for your complain to the price of Purple and Gold Motifs, you don't need those to play the game and the high price is justifiable considering the challenge of getting the rare items. There are items in the game that can be sold for over 500k gold, like the Purple vr12 Ring of the Warlock.

Majic · March 2015

Gix wrote: »

Enforcers will most likely camp the entrances to the sanctuaries.

And that's why the system will fail, unless some means of discouraging refuge camping or providing for ways to enter them without wading through swarms of campers is implemented.

BBSooner · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

Enforcers will most likely camp the entrances to the sanctuaries.

And that's why the system will fail, unless some means of discouraging refuge camping or providing for ways to enter them without wading through swarms of campers is implemented.

I would think there are multiple avenues of preventing this:

- Player invisibility after leaving a refuge for X seconds (or unless an NPC guard sees/attacks you).
- Player immunity vs enforcers after leaving a refuge for X seconds (or unless an NPC guard sees/attacks you).
- "Brigand" NPCs guarding the refuge against players wearing the enforcer tabard.
- Increased entrances/exits to each refuge (perhaps with a wayshrine system that link the refuges with eachother, but not the outside world)
- Entering the refuge could make criminals unable to be attacked by enforcers until they encounter another NPC guard.

etc.

Honestly, since the entire mechanic of removing your heat can be found within the refuge I question whether or not there is a necessity of protecting those criminals against enforcers who have sufficient heat to enable PvP.

Gix · March 2015

Majic wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

Enforcers will most likely camp the entrances to the sanctuaries.

And that's why the system will fail, unless some means of discouraging refuge camping or providing for ways to enter them without wading through swarms of campers is implemented.

Unless they make it so that players can only be enforcers if they're in town; prohibiting them from camping the (one of two) entrance that is outside of town.

That's not to mention the ways I already mentioned that prevents you from being PvPed.

Relax, you might actually enjoy it.

Ara_Valleria · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

I was bracing myself for trolls. Great to see some good ideas coming. Maybe if we get some more I might be swayed to argue in favour of enforcers. But I'm not sold yet. Scaling the enforcers up or down to within a reasonable level of the perp is good way to stop gankers. I also really liked the idea about only being hunted by enforcers when you get a certain amount of bounty hanging over you. Maybe that's the best idea I've heard yet.

Here is another Idea... become a highly skilled thief.

If you are going to love the advantages of a system, be prepared to accept its disadvantages.. its what makes a system just.
You are like wanting to eat McDonalds 24/7 and refusing to accept the obesity and heart attack that comes with it.

Dru1076 · March 2015

Rekward wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

I was bracing myself for trolls. Great to see some good ideas coming. Maybe if we get some more I might be swayed to argue in favour of enforcers. But I'm not sold yet. Scaling the enforcers up or down to within a reasonable level of the perp is good way to stop gankers. I also really liked the idea about only being hunted by enforcers when you get a certain amount of bounty hanging over you. Maybe that's the best idea I've heard yet.

Here is another Idea... become a highly skilled thief.

If you are going to love the advantages of a system, be prepared to accept its disadvantages.. its what makes a system just.
You are like wanting to eat McDonalds 24/7 and refusing to accept the obesity and heart attack that comes with it.

I am already a highly skilled thief. And I do like the justice system, I just don't want to more disadvantaged than other players.

Dru1076 · March 2015

Grao wrote: »

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)

I understand where you are coming from, but the PvP part of the Justice System is an important element to the future of the game. The guards we have right now, while Immortal, are just too easy to get around of. Enforcer Players would be far more interesting and will stimulate other players to look more closely into PvP.

Besides, you lose nothing if an Enforcer catches you except a little bit of Gold and the items you stole. A smart person would work on always keeping their bounty close to 0, so if they do get caught, they don't lose too much. Also, it is not like enforcers will be able to chase you into the wild. They will probably only be able to act within the cities boundaries and close surroundings just like the NPC guards, not to mention you can always run to the closest bandits hide hole.

As for your complain to the price of Purple and Gold Motifs, you don't need those to play the game and the high price is justifiable considering the challenge of getting the rare items. There are items in the game that can be sold for over 500k gold, like the Purple vr12 Ring of the Warlock.

I agree with just about everything you say...but I wasn't complaining about the value of rare loot. Why would I? I want to make money from finding gold items too. My fear is that a justice system policed through PVP battles would offer no deterrent to PVP lovers, taking away their need to sneak...while I am still slowly skulking about waiting for opportunities.

Dru1076 · March 2015

BBSooner wrote: »

I have to completely disagree with the OP. Allowing player enforcers could finally allow ZOS to remove the invincible guards since a large force could mobilize to defend a town if a large attack was made against the NPCs. This adds for a more dynamic world to exist instead of as currently implemented where a single instance of crime that is caught has 1 of 2 outcomes.

The justice system is about consequences. Fearing the consequences of crime is natural, and should be a deterrent. It breaths life in to the game and gives your actions weight.

Very likely, should it be implemented, unless you are a murderer and have high heat there will be a PvE barrier before a player is able to get involved. You will probably be given the choice to pay your bounty, or run, in which case if you run the player is able to assist the guard in catching you. The fears that a player will be able to loom over your character and kill you for stealing a 25g item from a barrel feel incredibly unwarranted as it will likely not be implemented in that manner (in defiance of some people's opinions). Admittedly, this is pure speculation, but I believe the system will neither be as open as some would like, nor was restricted as others.

For someone who completely disagrees with me, you say a lot of stuff that indicates otherwise. If you read all my posts in here, then you'd know I am not so worried now I was. And as for the justice system offering a deterrent, how is the threat of being chased down by an enforcer going to deter someone who loves PVP? Wouldn't it have the opposite effect?

I am sure there will be a way around this... Perhaps by enticing some of the best and brightest PVP players to the side of justice somehow.

ZigoSid · March 2015

If PVP never release we still need something for the good guys 'cause right now it's more a bandit system ...

Ysne58 · March 2015

The idea of wayshrining between refuges is an interesting one. Not sure it's a good idea, but it might make for an interesting way to travel. Of course you would have to have discovered other refuges before you can travel to them.

Majic · March 2015

Guard Duty

ZigoSid wrote: »

If PVP never release we still need something for the good guys 'cause right now it's more a bandit system ...

Agreed. Aside from PvP, it makes sense for players to be able to track down and bring NPC thieves and murderers to justice, including quests, events and a Guard skill line analogous to Legerdemain.

Just that in itself could be pretty cool, with the PvP elements being icing on the cake.

bosmern_ESO · March 2015

well maybe you shouldn't Break the law on my watch

Naivefanboi · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

This is something I am seeing getting asked for... And I have read the official announcement regarding the Justice System where ZOS say PVP elements like enforcers are in the works. I think its a bad idea, and for several reasons.

A lot of us don't like PVP, for various reasons...and it will give skilled PVP players a huge advantage over people like me. How? I will give an example. Say you are sneaking around, waiting for an NPC to turn away so you can steal some stuff... Only along comes a V14 pvp expert who quietly laughs at you and just steals the stuff right in front of you and the NPC. In comes the enforcer, who is then brutality hit with a Jesus Beam and quickly taken out. They wouldn't have to sneak around at all if they can two hit kill enforcers, and they only have to fight their way to the fence to cash in. See how the system would become unbalanced for people who suck at PVP?

As for the "Don't steal or get caught" argument...the easiest way to get motifs and recipes and lots of stuff is looting in towns. Motifs are already super expensive items...I saw a purple motif going for 100000 in the chat window the other day. Now... Having the system there with an option between invincible guards or enforcers sounds good, and I am open to that idea though it would still leave skilled PVP with a big leg up when dealing with the law. Invincible guards are painful, no doubt...but at least the system is fair for everyone.

Please leave PVP out of the PVE zones... Let bounty hunters have their fun in Cyrodil and the Imperial City (when it is released)[/quote

are they still doing the imperial city?

Dru1076 · March 2015

Hey @Naivefanboi ... I remember reading somewhere that there's a chance it will feature in the next major update. I'm not sure though... I am certain it is on the way though.

Roechacca · March 2015

I don't . Sounds awesome personally .

Naivefanboi · March 2015

Dru1076 wrote: »

Hey @Naivefanboi ... I remember reading somewhere that there's a chance it will feature in the next major update. I'm not sure though... I am certain it is on the way though.

ohh, i thought they werent adding anything till after console launch, like a month or so after? thated be awesome tho if they had it done

Dru1076 · March 2015

Roechacca wrote: »

I don't . Sounds awesome personally .

Coming from a very vocal PVP player, that comes as no surprise at all @Roechacca . But I gotta say...i have come to expect cleverer posts from you than this...

Tbh...I am starting to come around to seeing benefits from Enfprcers myself.